Why is apotheosis so bad?

[Heran]

And change to apotheosis is going to do what, exactly?

Make it not a liability to use?

And it's not a liability if you use it for what it was designed for.

"Use it for what it was designed for"? It's a CD you pop to increase your throughput, you don't use it unless you have to. If I need to use CDs, then shit has hit the fan. If shit hasn't hit the fan, I don't need CDs.

[Eace]

How do I plan ahead for DPS killing too many mobs with bursting? How do I plan ahead for DPS standing in AOE? How do I plan ahead for the tank fucking up a pull? How do I plan ahead for the tank fucking up on a boss?.

You don't and you're not supposed to. A healer isn't supposed to be able to always save everyone no matter how badly they fuck up.

[Heran]

They don't really want you to be able to save the group if there's fuck up. That's kind of their whole model of boss design now. Mistake = burst to death before anyone can react.

That's driven by gear inflation - we outgear heroic raids so quickly now that they have to add in unforgiving mechanics or else everyone can just brute force everything with the ridiculous item level we reach by end of the tier.

So why can I do exactly that on my shaman?

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You don't and you're not supposed to. A healer isn't supposed to be able to always save everyone no matter how badly they fuck up.

So why can I do that on my shaman?

[Charge me Doctor]

Make it not a liability to use?

It's already not a liability, it significantly improves your HPS

"Use it for what it was designed for"? It's a CD you pop to increase your throughput, you don't use it unless you have to. If I need to use CDs, then shit has hit the fan. If shit hasn't hit the fan, I don't need CDs.

And it already does exactly that, it improves your HPS and you don't use it unless you have to. You are talking about dealing with damage reactively, you react to what's happening right now and use tools that deal with that. Holy priest isn't the best choice for that, since you have only two cooldowns that can deal with this - Hymn and GA. Apotheosis is not an "oh shit" button, and you don't use it when someone will die in a GCD, since it doesn't give you any immediate healing, it doesn't even reduces cooldowns instantly, you still have to cast. I don't understand how anyone can consider using it as an "oh shit" button.

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So why can I do that on my shaman?

Because it's a shaman, and we are talking about holy priests, these are different classes and specs, that while filling same role, do that differently.

[Heran]

Because it's a shaman, and we are talking about holy priests, these are different classes and specs, that while filling same role, do that differently.

Guess what? I could do the very same thing on my priest in previous iterations, even in Legion as the latest iteration I could recover with apotheosis. BFA? Nope, pressing it is a liability.

[Eace]

So why can I do exactly that on my shaman?

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So why can I do that on my shaman?

Always? You can always save your group no matter how much they fuck up? You can go to, say, ML+19 and pull all the add packs up to the boss and not wipe because you're on your shaman? Sure.

[Heran]

Always? You can always save your group no matter how much they fuck up? You can go to, say, ML+19 and pull all the add packs up to the boss and not wipe because you're on your shaman? Sure.

Don't put words in my mouth.

[Charge me Doctor]

Guess what? I could do the very same thing on my priest in previous iterations, even in Legion as the latest iteration I could recover with apotheosis. BFA? Nope, pressing it is a liability.

Things change, and in order to make classes and spec play differently, bring back role/spec niches (and healers are the most important role to make different playstyles for).

It doesn't matter what you think about this ability, it's still a net gain in healing output. The best part is that it's optional, and you can just pick a passive ability to be able to play more reactively

[Heran]

Things change, and in order to make classes and spec play differently, bring back role/spec niches (and healers are the most important role to make different playstyles for).

Bad changes are not worth sticking to.

It doesn't matter what you think about this ability, it's still a net gain in healing output

Not when people die because you spent a GCD on it instead of casting another heal. Then it's a liability. People shouldn't be dying because you activate a CD. They fixed this for shamans, because it was ridiculous that people would die when you activate a CD to increase your throughput.

[Charge me Doctor]

Bad changes are not worth sticking to.

Agree, but making healers different is not a bad change, it's a great change.

Not when people die because you spent a GCD on it instead of casting another heal.

Then jokes on you for using wrong ability at wrong time and expecting it to work. I mean, you could try to top people off using just holy nova. It won't work, but you could.

[Eace]

Don't put words in my mouth.

I stated that you are not supposed to always be able to save the group if they fuck up bad enough. You said you can do it on your shaman. Your words.

My point was that you can't always save the group. No matter what class you play. Sure, some classes are better at it, but no class can do it every single time.

[Heran]

Agree, but making healers different is not a bad change, it's a great change.

This is a bad change. There was no downside to using it in Legion, now it's a liability to use.

[Heran]

I stated that you are not supposed to always be able to save the group if they fuck up bad enough. You said you can do it on your shaman. Your words.

My point was that you can't always save the group. No matter what class you play. Sure, some classes are better at it, but no class can do it every single time.

My priest can't even manage to go 10 stacks without preparation even though it's better geared than my shaman. Ascendance > Healing tide > Chain heal > Pop cloudburst. If people kill too many mobs too quick on my priest without preparation, it's a wipe. If they do it on my shaman, I can still recover. In Legion I could still recover from it on my priest as well.

[wombats23]

you're being disingenuous saying apotheosis is bad specifically because it doesn't do anything on the global you press it.

people are dying in those situations because either:
a. you didn't have the foresight to pop a CD in preparation of incoming damage
or
b. they fucked up (refreshed bursting stacks, stood in fire, etc.)

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My priest can't even manage to go 10 stacks without preparation even though it's better geared than my shaman. Ascendance > Healing tide > Chain heal > Pop cloudburst. If people kill too many mobs too quick on my priest without preparation, it's a wipe. If they do it on my shaman, I can still recover. In Legion I could still recover from it on my priest as well.

you're telling me that apotheosis isn't as strong as using two 3min cds together AND a properly set up cloudburst?

say it isn't so!

[Heran]

you're telling me that apotheosis isn't as strong as using two 3min cds together AND a properly set up cloudburst?

say it isn't so!

Ascendance is what provides the initial healing needed to recover upon activation. Without ascendance healing on activation, it would be a wipe. It was a wipe previous to the change.

[Eace]

My priest can't even manage to go 10 stacks without preparation even though it's better geared than my shaman. Ascendance > Healing tide > Chain heal > Pop cloudburst. If people kill too many mobs too quick on my priest without preparation, it's a wipe. If they do it on my shaman, I can still recover. In Legion I could still recover from it on my priest as well.

Classes are different, and that's not a bad thing.

For example, as a priest you can handle spread out AoE healing a lot better than a resto shaman. Classes have their strength and weaknesses.

If you get too many stacks of Bursting and you're playing a priest, it's not a problem with priests. It's a problem with the DPS of the group not doing their part.

[Heran]

Classes are different, and that's not a bad thing.

It is bad when there's such a disproportionate representation of them in mythic plus due to the differences. As you go higher, holy priests practically stops existing.

[Memento1]

Thanks for reminding me why I don't check these forums anymore

[Heran]

You're speaking from the perspective of someone who is not doing super high keys.

I've done 15 in time with friend groups. Pugs won't even take me because I'm a holy priest. I can get into a weekly 10 or so but if I apply for groups that are 12 or more, they don't want me. Some ask me if I'm disc or holy, I say holy and they don't invite me. Some invite me, inspect me and see that I'm holy and kick me after seeing I'm holy, telling me to respec to disc instead.

[Eace]

It is bad when there's such a disproportionate representation of them in mythic plus due to the differences. As you go higher, holy priests practically stops existing.

You go high enough and anything but Resto druids stop existing.

This is not a problem with Apotheosis. Classes are different, they have their niches, and that's not a bad thing. You can't see equal representation among healers in m+ and raids if you don't homogenize them to filth. And nobody should want that.