Anti-vaccine parents are often college-educated and shop at Whole Foods

[CmdrShep2154]

https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-w...UEAyMCuJrp0mN4

It is sad seeing our best and brightest holding onto anti intellectual viewpoints. Where did we go wrong as an society? How can we restore trust in science and technology?

I think the anti vax ideology is a form of narcissism.

[PosPosPos]

Where's the actual evidence in all of this?

All I see are wild unsupported claims and stereotyping without so much as actual polling/analysis of antivaxxers.

[RussianGoblin]

https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-w...UEAyMCuJrp0mN4

It is sad seeing our best and brightest holding onto anti intellectual viewpoints. Where did we go wrong as an society? How can we restore trust in science and technology?

I think the anti vax ideology is a form of narcissism.

well there are many reasons,

collapse of trust in government
greedy big pharma - just a few days ago i read about 60 doctors arrested for peddling drugs in usa
untrustworthy media

basically the government is to blame

[Dr Assbandit]

https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-w...UEAyMCuJrp0mN4

It is sad seeing our best and brightest holding onto anti intellectual viewpoints. Where did we go wrong as an society? How can we restore trust in science and technology?

I think the anti vax ideology is a form of narcissism.

Wrong. In my time in medicine I have seen mothers who are affluent, poor, different ethnic origins, and hailing from both political parties. The most I could say the common link was strong religious ties and it's mostly the mothers but those was the only common links I experienced and my colleagues more or less agree.

[Celista]

Wrong. In my time in medicine I have seen mothers who are affluent, poor, different ethnic origins, and hailing from both political parties. The most I could say the common link was strong religious ties and it's mostly the mothers but those was the only common links I experienced and my colleagues more or less agree.

My boyfriend said the same but we're both liberal so. Thanks for chiming in.

[Prokne]

Makes sense. They can't afford vaccines after shopping at Whole Foods.

[VanishingAct]

I always thought it was weird how people portray the right as being anti-vaxxer. Not really a matter of left and right, there are groups of people with belief systems that let in anti-vaxxer information to believe regardless of their political opinions.
Hell most that don't vaccinate are 3rd worlders coming to western countries.

[Mackeyser]

I used to be anti-vax, but I'm in the minority in that my 3rd child died of acute interstitial pneumonia due to a reaction to the pneumonia vaccine she'd had two days earlier. My daughter was unable to breast feed and we specifically asked the doc if we should postpone the vaccines for a few weeks to allow her immune system to develop more fully since she didn't have her mother's antibodies from the breast milk. Doc said no, it was imperative we stick to the schedule.

Her death wasn't peaceful.

When trust has broken, it's not anti-intellectual to look at self-preservation.

Society embraced science when there was rigor and discipline. Being a scientist was considered a calling more than a profession. Now, medicine is purely for profit. There have been so many failures that it's easy to lose trust and want to withdraw from that system.

And there's no accountability. The vaccine industry is immune from liability.

I'm not anti-vax now, but it sure as hell wasn't narcissism that led me to be that for a time.

What many pediatricians seem to want to say is that, "it's a one in a million chance anything happens. If your child dies as a result, well, that's the cost society pays to avoid many more deaths" Empirically, that may be true.

However, society doesn't pay that cost, it's individual families. And there are no resources to even help with funeral expenses or to acknowledge anything happened because there's so much money in them that no pediatrician is gonna get on the bad side of the vaccine industry... even in the event of the death of a child. The industry doesn't want to improve, they want to preserve their profit margins.

I only post this because there legit are those who think that vaccines cause ZERO damage or deaths and thus, anyone not getting them is selfish.

Around my mic on my desk is the bracelet my daughter wore home from the hospital with her name spelled out in beads. I look at it EVERY DAY.

Again, I'm not anti-vax. But, there are legit issues with the vaccine industry that no one IN the industry wants to address, not lack of independent testing, not lack of true oversight, not the immunity from liability...none of it.

People are just told they have to do it no matter the cost.

If you've never been a parent, you can't know how unsettling it is. Especially because in the rare instance it goes wrong, it doesn't go mildly wrong...it goes way wrong...or even all the way wrong.

All that to say... it's more complicated than anything you imagine.

[Blur4stuff]

I suppose they're real people, but I've net met anyone in real life that was anti-vaccine. Then again I don't live near a whole foods either.

[niztheundead87]

Anti vaxxers deserve to be put in a rocket and send to the sun ,along with flat earthers

[Dr Assbandit]

I always thought it was weird how people portray the right as being anti-vaxxer. Not really a matter of left and right, there are groups of people with belief systems that let in anti-vaxxer information to believe regardless of their political opinions.
Hell most that don't vaccinate are 3rd worlders coming to western countries.

Cite your sources please because the only place I have seen that specific claim being made are conservative echo chambers.

[VanishingAct]

Cite your sources please because the only place I have seen that specific claim being made are conservative echo chambers.

Literally none but maybe they exist but subjects branded 'taboo' are quite hard to find information about. I only said it because thats what I've noticed where I live in Australia which got flagged for 3rd world relocation when our last leftist government was in power back in 2013. I talk to the local bulk bill doctors I've known for over a decade (I like asking questions to people like them, police etc), they tell me almost none of them vaccinate. When things started changing here when this happened...

In October 2015, the Queensland Parliament, amended the Public Health Act 2005 (Qld) (the Act) with respect to vaccination for the purpose of enrolment and attendance at early childhood education and care services in that state.

Talking to doctors said a lot of them were in a mad rush to vaccinate for the child care subsidy's for a while until it was found most of the big child care places didn't enforce the optional policy of 'no jab, no play' which I, being a staunch pro vaxxer agree with.

But its also just critical thinking, they come from 3rd world nations in 3rd world villages, vaccination doesn't happen except for the few that get them from charity setups at UN peacekeeper sections etc. When they come here, they aren't really educated on vaccination as its something optional.

[horbindr]

there is always the subgroup that believes vaccines work, just that they are no longer needed. either because better hygiene now, or because the diseases were "eradicated", or because why risk a adverse reaction in my kid when herd immunity will eliminate most risk too.

- - - Updated - - -

Cite your sources please because the only place I have seen that specific claim being made are conservative echo chambers.

latest measles outbreak in my country was from unvaccinated and too young to be vaccinated children who had traveled abroad.

but all the big outbreaks in the last couple of decades have been from dropping below the magic number for herd immunity to work in religious communities.

so i don't think it's unreasonable to assume that most outbreaks start from foreign sources where the disease is more prevalent in general, but for it to become a big outbreak there also has to be a problem locally making it just a matter of time.

[gondrin]

I used to be anti-vax, but I'm in the minority in that my 3rd child died of acute interstitial pneumonia due to a reaction to the pneumonia vaccine she'd had two days earlier. My daughter was unable to breast feed and we specifically asked the doc if we should postpone the vaccines for a few weeks to allow her immune system to develop more fully since she didn't have her mother's antibodies from the breast milk. Doc said no, it was imperative we stick to the schedule.

Her death wasn't peaceful.

When trust has broken, it's not anti-intellectual to look at self-preservation.

Society embraced science when there was rigor and discipline. Being a scientist was considered a calling more than a profession. Now, medicine is purely for profit. There have been so many failures that it's easy to lose trust and want to withdraw from that system.

And there's no accountability. The vaccine industry is immune from liability.

I'm not anti-vax now, but it sure as hell wasn't narcissism that led me to be that for a time.

What many pediatricians seem to want to say is that, "it's a one in a million chance anything happens. If your child dies as a result, well, that's the cost society pays to avoid many more deaths" Empirically, that may be true.

However, society doesn't pay that cost, it's individual families. And there are no resources to even help with funeral expenses or to acknowledge anything happened because there's so much money in them that no pediatrician is gonna get on the bad side of the vaccine industry... even in the event of the death of a child. The industry doesn't want to improve, they want to preserve their profit margins.

I only post this because there legit are those who think that vaccines cause ZERO damage or deaths and thus, anyone not getting them is selfish.

Around my mic on my desk is the bracelet my daughter wore home from the hospital with her name spelled out in beads. I look at it EVERY DAY.

Again, I'm not anti-vax. But, there are legit issues with the vaccine industry that no one IN the industry wants to address, not lack of independent testing, not lack of true oversight, not the immunity from liability...none of it.

People are just told they have to do it no matter the cost.

If you've never been a parent, you can't know how unsettling it is. Especially because in the rare instance it goes wrong, it doesn't go mildly wrong...it goes way wrong...or even all the way wrong.

All that to say... it's more complicated than anything you imagine.

While I am sorry for your loss, as far as vaccines go, there will always be a small chance there will be harm due to what a vaccine is. However, this is where there can be a real reason why someone might be against vaccines due to harm done to them. The vast majority of it though is either through bad info, bad science or religious dogma. It seems that most who are anti vax have seem to forgotten what a vaccine is and what it does.

Now, there is no possible way I could know the pain of losing a child as I don't have any so any words cannot express how it feels.

[Draco-Onis]

Literally none but maybe they exist but subjects branded 'taboo' are quite hard to find information about. I only said it because thats what I've noticed where I live in Australia which got flagged for 3rd world relocation when our last leftist government was in power back in 2013. I talk to the local bulk bill doctors I've known for over a decade (I like asking questions to people like them, police etc), they tell me almost none of them vaccinate. When things started changing here when this happened..

WTF are you smoking the WHO/UNICEF job is to monitor these things, there's even an interactive map and everything stop talking out of your ass.

https://www.who.int/immunization/mon...lance/data/en/

[Kathandira]

How can we restore trust in science and technology?

If I found out a friend of mine was an anti-vaxxer, I would first attempt to talk some sense into them. If that failed, I would disconnect from them. I don't have time for people who are a danger to themselves and others.

[Najnaj]

https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-w...UEAyMCuJrp0mN4

It is sad seeing our best and brightest holding onto anti intellectual viewpoints. Where did we go wrong as an society? How can we restore trust in science and technology?

I think the anti vax ideology is a form of narcissism.

It is selfishness. The problem is that once you remove idiotic autism claims, anti vaxxers have the right idea from a totally selfish standpoint. Vaccines are not totally safe for the individual but the benefits for the group outweighs this tiny risk thousand fold. If you only care about your kids your best bet is to not vaccinate them while making sure that everyone around them are vaccinated. That way you get all the benefits and none of the risks.

[Enthusiastic Steward]

Cite your sources please because the only place I have seen that specific claim being made are conservative echo chambers.

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-s...ation-coverage

Relevant extract:
In 2017, an estimated 19.9 million infants worldwide were not reached with routine immunization services such as 3 doses of DTP vaccine. Around 60% of these children live in 10 countries: Afghanistan, Angola, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ethiopia, India, Indonesia, Iraq, Nigeria, Pakistan and South Africa.

A big part of the anti-vaxx push in Africa comes from a combination of two things: Push by the fundamentalist Christian sects (more accurately, their missionaries) who push for prayer and "God will provide" mentality as preventative health care and the general feeling of 'distrust of the West' by native populations due to, oh, you know, the general historical behavior of white people in Africa.

[Kharadin]

Makes sense. The poorest/least educated are less likely to question science and medical standards. It's all the BAs in Fine Art and English Literature that think they know a few things that are more likely to disagree and start spreading measles again. I wonder how the stats change if you account for Science degrees vs. others?

[Najnaj]

I used to be anti-vax, but I'm in the minority in that my 3rd child died of acute interstitial pneumonia due to a reaction to the pneumonia vaccine she'd had two days earlier. My daughter was unable to breast feed and we specifically asked the doc if we should postpone the vaccines for a few weeks to allow her immune system to develop more fully since she didn't have her mother's antibodies from the breast milk. Doc said no, it was imperative we stick to the schedule.

Her death wasn't peaceful.

When trust has broken, it's not anti-intellectual to look at self-preservation.

Society embraced science when there was rigor and discipline. Being a scientist was considered a calling more than a profession. Now, medicine is purely for profit. There have been so many failures that it's easy to lose trust and want to withdraw from that system.

And there's no accountability. The vaccine industry is immune from liability.

I'm not anti-vax now, but it sure as hell wasn't narcissism that led me to be that for a time.

What many pediatricians seem to want to say is that, "it's a one in a million chance anything happens. If your child dies as a result, well, that's the cost society pays to avoid many more deaths" Empirically, that may be true.

However, society doesn't pay that cost, it's individual families. And there are no resources to even help with funeral expenses or to acknowledge anything happened because there's so much money in them that no pediatrician is gonna get on the bad side of the vaccine industry... even in the event of the death of a child. The industry doesn't want to improve, they want to preserve their profit margins.

I only post this because there legit are those who think that vaccines cause ZERO damage or deaths and thus, anyone not getting them is selfish.

Around my mic on my desk is the bracelet my daughter wore home from the hospital with her name spelled out in beads. I look at it EVERY DAY.

Again, I'm not anti-vax. But, there are legit issues with the vaccine industry that no one IN the industry wants to address, not lack of independent testing, not lack of true oversight, not the immunity from liability...none of it.

People are just told they have to do it no matter the cost.

If you've never been a parent, you can't know how unsettling it is. Especially because in the rare instance it goes wrong, it doesn't go mildly wrong...it goes way wrong...or even all the way wrong.

All that to say... it's more complicated than anything you imagine.

The vaccine industry is not immune from consequences though and no one in the medical field is unaware that every single thing you do comes with a risk. The issue with anti vaxxers is that is is mostly, with a few exceptions, a self vs collective issue. The risks for the self are tiny and the benefits for the collective are huge.

As for child mortality due to vaccines it does indeed happen but of course it is, as I am sure you know, extremely rare. Compared to child mortality pre vaccines it is an almost non existing number even if it must feel very differently for the one in a million that it happens to. The thing that the doctors do not tell us very often is that vaccines are not all that effective if you look at them case by case and person by person. We need that herd immunity for them to work and an anti vaxxer is putting your child at risk even if your child is vaccinated.