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  1. #21
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    I find quasi or near genocide to be a bridge too far for a faction you don't want to case as outright villains in the narrative - Teldrassil as it current is in the game was a mistake on the writers' part unless they truly and fully want to define the factions as good (Alliance) vs. evil (Horde) as it was in the First and Second Wars. I think it would've been better for the Horde to get bogged down in Darkshore by the Kaldorei, prevented from realizing full victory in the War of Thorns. The Battle of Lordaeron would instead be a diversionary tactic by the Alliance to reduce the pressure on Darkshore and Ashenvale, drawing away Horde attackers to serve as defenders at Lordaeron. Sylvanas would then go ahead with the destruction of her own capitol to try to kill Anduin and the story would play out normally. Saurfang's rebellion would be based on discovering the full extent of Sylvanas' plans i.e. Teldrassil and Stormwind, and the growing sense that Sylvanas' idea of war would spell the Horde's destruction instead of its salvation. In this new context, events would play out relatively normally as they have.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Logwyn View Post
    How would you write it differently?
    Lordaeron happens first. Even if you then do everything else in the exact same way, every party involved is far more proactive and motivated.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    How can I get over it when in every patch there are at least several characters telegraphing to us there is going to be repercussions where there isn't any?
    You really should have prepared. If they were dumb enough to make Sylvanas a 100% forgettable version of Garrosh, what did you expected them to go as logical conclusion?
    Obviously a point were the only real repercusions on the Horde come from itself, as they kill a fuck ton Horde soldiers, remove another Warchief, get forced to do all that in the Alliance's service (this time not even trying to hide it, as they openly have Saurfang only going for "honor" after being enlighted by Anduin), and face their entire cast become nothing for years to focus on some Allies becoming neutrals by force, and maybe Jesus Thrall if lucky. But not because Alliance forces them, wich would be somewhat grey although entirely justified, but because that's the fate a honorable Horde saves for itself: mud huts, hunger and never ever trying to improve.
    Best you can do so far is hope for Blizz to pull a prank on us with Sylvanas so Alliance can continue the war on a lower scale while they fight our tentacle wannabe-overlord, and Horde is forced to defend from some aggressions with varying degrees of success.

  4. #24
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    The writers say that the Horde didn't learn its lesson even thought its their own fucking choice to write it that way.


    They then go so far off the deep end with Teldrasil that no one would ever forgive or forget only to have the Alliance work with a cowardly Saurfang who's suicidal/regretful and therefore his entire plan of stomping the night elves all the way to Teldrassil is brushed over by everyone but one angry sentence from Shaw and the night elves.

    The Horde goes from trying to kill Jaina to willingly work with her, Saurfang screams "We don't want any trouble" when he's caught sneaking in Orgrimmar with Jaina and Shaw. and the Horde defends Jaina from sunreavers.

    The writing has never been worse, its best that you accept that regardless of side Blizzard at this point doesn't care about consistency, and I would REALLY like to know who the fuck they think they are pleasing with this story.


    Teldrassil was Blizzard's attempt to be dark and Game of Thronsey, which turns into a laughing stock when they chicken out and try to blame it all on Sylvanas, even when originally they tried to tell us "The person who burned it isn't who you would expect." It's going to be brushed over because the writers are beyond terrible, if they have the Alliance acknowledge Teldrassil this ruins their "Narrative" they are trying to push.

    "Alliance and Horde are meant to be friends."

    If the Alliance demands and pursues revenge/justice, then the Writers have a meltdown, suddenly Horde can begin to justify Sylvanas's "They will try to break us" mantra, If Sylvanas gains justification then not everyone will want to listen to the Wisdom of Anduin. Of course Teldrassil isn't something that can be forgotten, and because the writers either regret taking it that far or simply can't handle writing about it they will try to forget it.

    Of course this means the writers will try to blame everything on Sylvanas, the thought of having the Horde that were there during the war of thorns taking blame instead of a single character sends shivers down their spine.

    It is easier (Even if it fails horribly) to try to make Saurfang the sad victim of trickery, a pathetic attempt at preserving the "Honor " of the Horde, thus creating a shitty narrative shield in which the Horde doesn't need to to be attacked by the Alliance in revenge because they are already suffering penance.

    Expect a retcon saying "not that many night elves died" or Tyrande killing the night elves who want revenge in the name of peace, but you're never going to get satisfaction because the writers are afraid of the bed they made and set it on fire.

    TLDR you'll get no Teldrassil acknowledgement or revenge because that would mean ripping apart the feeble duct-tape skeleton the writers have the audacity to say they are proud of this expansion.
    Last edited by Friendlyimmolation; 2019-04-19 at 04:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    "Making mother of all omelettes here, can't fret over every egg"
    I laughed imagining this as in-game dialogue when the Horde were going over their tactics for the assault on the night elves with Teldrassil being codenamed "mother of all omelettes."

  6. #26
    Dreadlord Mask's Avatar
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    The only appropriate resolution to this will be Tyrande and Jaina doing what Varian didn't have the balls to do during the Siege of Orgrammar. The horde must be dismantled completely. Every city burned. Every soldier killed. Every citizen imprisoned or exiled from Azeroth (send them all to Outland to rot there). This will be the storybook ending to WoW that we all want.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Lordaeron happens first. Even if you then do everything else in the exact same way, every party involved is far more proactive and motivated.
    This is what I was thinking post-Blizzcon reveal, but even doing Teldrassil first there's SO MUCH that could've been done to avoid what we've got now, a shitty character drama with 0 stakes because things just happen anyways.

  8. #28
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    Yep it always will be, there is really no coming back from it which means Alliance will always have the moral high ground and the horde will always remain filth. Which is the opposite of what we wanted and was promised. Honestly at this point all we can hope for is a flat out retcon as without vengeance there is literally no reason to pretend to have a faction conflict anymore as there are zero repercussions and the "Just following orders" excuse will always be a viable out. My major grief with it is that it guts the Alliance, the alliance has never been a whole and the Kalimdor and EK alliance were supposed to feel different with Kalimdor being more offensive and EK being traditional. but they left this a long time ago and just made Kalimdor the punching bag that maybe finally will wake up Stormwind this time... no seriously this time it will work. BfA is just a more exhausting version of WoD at this point.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalorakk View Post
    This is what I was thinking post-Blizzcon reveal, but even doing Teldrassil first there's SO MUCH that could've been done to avoid what we've got now, a shitty character drama with 0 stakes because things just happen anyways.
    It's even more galling than that. Even if Teldrassil was in the A Good War version, if they'd committed to the conclusion of that - Saurfang realizing that there can be no peace and it's a total war now on both sides, with the Alliance escalating accordingly and wanting vengeance, you could still have had a decent story.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  10. #30
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seylene View Post
    Yep it always will be, there is really no coming back from it which means Alliance will always have the moral high ground and the horde will always remain filth. Which is the opposite of what we wanted and was promised. Honestly at this point all we can hope for is a flat out retcon as without vengeance there is literally no reason to pretend to have a faction conflict anymore as there are zero repercussions and the "Just following orders" excuse will always be a viable out. My major grief with it is that it guts the Alliance, the alliance has never been a whole and the Kalimdor and EK alliance were supposed to feel different with Kalimdor being more offensive and EK being traditional. but they left this a long time ago and just made Kalimdor the punching bag that maybe finally will wake up Stormwind this time... no seriously this time it will work. BfA is just a more exhausting version of WoD at this point.
    I don't give much credence to theories and speculation, but it bothers me how much the "Current writers hated the characters the old writers liked," and the "Story changed to cost cutting"sound possible just because I long for answers on how things could get so terrible.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  11. #31
    Warchief Themerlin's Avatar
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    “Life is and will ever remain an equation incapable of solution, but it contains certain known factors.”

  12. #32
    I still think this will end up being a Kerrigan-esque thing where something so bad happens and we have to unite ... eventually people forget anything Sylvanas did .. and its brushed under the rug because we the players must literally save the planet ...

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    I don't give much credence to theories and speculation, but it bothers me how much the "Current writers hated the characters the old writers liked," and the "Story changed to cost cutting"sound possible just because I long for answers on how things could get so terrible.
    I happily subscribe to the theory that Afrasiabi was extremely salty that Garrosh ended up in the evil Warchief role in Mists instead of Sylvanas and this is indirect revenge on Kosak and a way to introduce muh honor directly instead of by proxy as he tried in Stonetalon. When the problem was that there was an evil Warchief role in Mists at all.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  14. #34
    Except Night Elves and Forsaken are clearly being set up as the two factions that won't agree to the peace accords after BFA.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalorakk View Post
    This is what I was thinking post-Blizzcon reveal, but even doing Teldrassil first there's SO MUCH that could've been done to avoid what we've got now, a shitty character drama with 0 stakes because things just happen anyways.
    The story could have been the same, and the upcoming friendliness less galling, if the cities weren’t lost but besieged, the warfronts would be battles to try and relieve the sieges (In the case of Arathi by cutting or establishing supply lines), seeking the Zandalari navy would be to help with the siege of Teldrassil, and from there the story would go on as it has already, with the aforementioned less jarring change from war to “Let’s fight together” when Azshara crops up.

  16. #36
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    I am pretty sure this will result in this fracture in the Alliance that Ion implied. It's pretty obvious there is an underplot being cooked here since 8.1 where Alliance will get its own extremist faction that will do the dirty work of diving Alliance in the future and making it much more controversial as opposed to being almost justice incarnates they are now.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I am pretty sure this will result in this fracture in the Alliance that Ion implied. It's pretty obvious there is an underplot being cooked here since 8.1 where Alliance will get its own extremist faction that will do the dirty work of diving Alliance in the future and making it much more controversial as opposed to being almost justice incarnates they are now.
    Yup, Night Elves, Worgen and maybe an allied race (not Kul Tirans considering how much Jaina wants to end the war) will be the "savage" part of the Alliance. I'm curious as to what will separate Genn from Anduin.

  18. #38
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EbaumsTipster View Post
    Except Night Elves and Forsaken are clearly being set up as the two factions that won't agree to the peace accords after BFA.
    Pretty much, and this tension will threaten Alliance. Tyrande already started sort of breaking off in 8.1 and I bet once she learns about this Horde cooperation she will be less than excited about it and unlike Jaina with her fits of rage of the past - Tyrande is not the only Night Elf with these thoughts, there will be many and their reasons will be much more substantial too, Horde did not knock their Ice Cream cone to the ground there and they will seek blind vengeance.

  19. #39
    I would love for the night elves to be hell bent to drive the horde races from their continent, so to speak, starting a massive assault on the Tauren, because their lands aren't as fortified right now.

  20. #40
    Ohhh, I get it. This is why they did the evil light plot for AU Maghar.

    The savage parts of each faction will be:

    Night Elves + Worgen (refugees, lore buddies, owe each other)
    Lightforged Draenei (PURGE)

    Forsaken + Goblins (refugees, new lore buddies (Darkshore), similar themes of pollution and being nasty)
    Mag'har (hate lightforged/bound and also friends with Sylvanas and Goblins)

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