Mega-Thread: Mueller investigation

[Rysthruun]

Of course he isn’t... that wouldn’t have hurt America. Why would Russia use all their capital to elect someone like Obama? No... their weapon is Trump. Because Trump is a moron...

Out of curiosity, do you think Russia is in a worse or better spot since Trump took office? As far as I can gauge, Russia itself is a lot weaker but it does seem like certain Russian individuals made out ok in comparison to Obama years. I say weaker because of events that transpired out of the US political system.

[Orbitus]

The transmutation of this tempest in a teacup from a vast international Russian Manchurian candidate conspiracy to Trump talked about firing a dude but didn't, is amazing.

This is beautiful, all this time waiting for the report and it pretty much says “Well we didn’t find anything criminal, but this doesn’t mean he didn’t do anything criminal”. A perfect set up for one side to scream “Witch Hunt” and the other side to scream anything they deem incriminating right back. Truly a blessing.

Of course, had he actually fired Mueller he would have saved everyone time and money since the central question came up zilch.

The investigation MADE MONEY. And the investigation took 1/3 the time of the Hillary Benghazi investigation that literally got nothing. Meanwhile this investigation, got dozens of indictments, 6 guilty pleas, and hundreds of charges. And even said that Trump is basically guilty of obstruction. Had he fired Mueller, he would have literally sunk his presidency.

But you keep being fucking delusional.

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Out of curiosity, do you think Russia is in a worse or better spot since Trump took office? As far as I can gauge, Russia itself is a lot weaker but it does seem like certain Russian individuals made out ok in comparison to Obama years. I say weaker because of events that transpired out of the US political system.

Considering that Trump has given them sanctions relief, they are better.

[Endus]

This is exactly why I'm gonna vote for Elizabeth Warren:

https://twitter.com/mj_lee/status/1119337575905464320


https://twitter.com/ewarren/status/1119331293467152384

I keep hearing the Democrats, like Pelosi, say that they're not going to pursue impeachment, because they're being practical; they know the Senate will vote on party lines no matter what the evidence is, so any impeachment effort is doomed to fail.

This is, IMO, the wrong position to take.

The House needs to impeach, and send it to the Senate. Knowing it will get shot down. Make them fucking do it. If you don't, they can forever say they would have voted to impeach, but the House never filed a motion. So take that away. File it, get the votes in the House, and kick it over, and then roast their nuts on an open fire when they don't support it.

[Mahourai]

NYT has an article out about Mueller's findings as they relate to the Steele dossier. Excerpted:

...

Mr. Trump’s former lawyer Michael D. Cohen negotiated for a Trump Tower project in Moscow many months into the campaign — and later admitted lying about it to Congress, along with tax evasion and other crimes. But Mr. Cohen did not, as the dossier claimed, travel to Prague to conspire in the Russian hacking of Democrats, the Mueller report makes clear.

Similarly, Mr. Page, a foreign policy adviser, was invited to address a prestigious Moscow institute in July 2016 in what seems to have been a calculated Russian attempt to curry favor. But Mr. Mueller, after a two-year investigation involving roughly 40 F.B.I. agents and other specialists, provided no evidence to support the claim that the adviser had collected a brokerage fee for the sale of a share of the Russian oil giant Rosneft. Nor has any evidence emerged to support the dossier’s claims about D.N.C. moles, Romanian hackers, Russian pensioners — or years of Trump-Putin intelligence trading.

Other dossier assertions remain neither proved nor disproved, notably its claim about Mr. Trump’s alleged dalliance with prostitutes. The Mueller report says a Russian businessman texted Mr. Cohen a week before the election to say that he had “stopped the flow of tapes from Russia but not sure if there’s anything else.” The businessman, Giorgi Rtskhiladze, later said he was referring to compromising tapes of Mr. Trump — but had been told they were fake.

...

There has been much chatter among intelligence experts that Mr. Steele’s Russian informants could have been pressured to feed him disinformation.

Daniel Hoffman, a former C.I.A. officer who served in Moscow, said he had long suspected the dossier was contaminated by Russian fabrications. The goal, he said, would be to deepen American divisions and blur the line between truth and falsehood.

“How many times have hearings on Capitol Hill used information from the dossier?” Mr. Hoffman said. “How much damage has it already caused?”

- Source

[Nadiru]

Instead of reading articles by the Times and CNN and MSNBC about what the report says, why not just read the report?

[Orbitus]

Instead of reading articles by the Times and CNN and MSNBC about what the report says, why not just read the report?

Because 448 pages is a lot of pages to read to soak in all the information. And if they find interesting things like what @Mahourai just posted, and they source the section instead of making wildly inaccurate claims like right wing sources do, I would rather see it. I read a great deal of it. But seeing things like the Dossier basically being confirmed is hilarious. Cuz then Trump humpers can stop saying it is a fake dossier.

[Rukh]

I keep hearing the Democrats, like Pelosi, say that they're not going to pursue impeachment, because they're being practical; they know the Senate will vote on party lines no matter what the evidence is, so any impeachment effort is doomed to fail.

This is, IMO, the wrong position to take.

The House needs to impeach, and send it to the Senate. Knowing it will get shot down. Make them fucking do it. If you don't, they can forever say they would have voted to impeach, but the House never filed a motion. So take that away. File it, get the votes in the House, and kick it over, and then roast their nuts on an open fire when they don't support it.

El Warren is calling for the house to begin impeachment.

I think we're going to have a nice smelling year personally. Its going to be very peachy mints.

[pathora44]

Because 448 pages is a lot of pages to read to soak in all the information. And if they find interesting things like what @Mahourai just posted, and they source the section instead of making wildly inaccurate claims like right wing sources do, I would rather see it. I read a great deal of it. But seeing things like the Dossier basically being confirmed is hilarious. Cuz then Trump humpers can stop saying it is a fake dossier.

Silly Orbitus Trumpsters will say the sky is maroon, the grass is canary yellow, and the sun revolves around the moon if it helps their case. Facts and truth mean nothing to people who run on pure feels 24/7.

[Mahourai]

But seeing things like the Dossier basically being confirmed is hilarious.

That is not what the article I linked says, though. Did you read it?

[Flower Milk]

Instead of reading articles by the Times and CNN and MSNBC about what the report says, why not just read the report?

Most news outlets I've seen have quoted parts of the report and then listed where they are located in the report so you can go and look them up for yourself. Also I've been watching MSNBC and they frequently just straight up show screenshots of the report and tell where that part is located in it.

[Shalcker]

Didnt realize Obama was still president.

He still was during Russian "attacks", so, it kind of happened "on his watch".

Absolutely nothing Trump could do at that point - hacks and releases happened regardless of his wishes.

[Kasierith]

I keep hearing the Democrats, like Pelosi, say that they're not going to pursue impeachment, because they're being practical; they know the Senate will vote on party lines no matter what the evidence is, so any impeachment effort is doomed to fail.

This is, IMO, the wrong position to take.

The House needs to impeach, and send it to the Senate. Knowing it will get shot down. Make them fucking do it. If you don't, they can forever say they would have voted to impeach, but the House never filed a motion. So take that away. File it, get the votes in the House, and kick it over, and then roast their nuts on an open fire when they don't support it.

Not yet. They have one shot at it if they want to make a public impact. Just one. If they want to do it, the house Democrats need to make sure to maximize the impact. And what we don't know right now is what exactly Barr hid.

Another thing is, there''s a lot left unsaid, including things that could exonerate Trump to an extent that would look stronger if the Democrats made their move before it came out. This part of politics is a game. What if Barr hid an element of Mueller coming across wrongdoing by the Democrats, as a more blatant example. They're going to be very careful about making such major moves on partial information, especially since this is a game Barr, and any AG, have played before.

[rda]

Not yet. They have one shot at it if they want to make a public impact. Just one. If they want to do it, the house Democrats need to make sure to maximize the impact. And what we don't know right now is what exactly Barr hid.

Not "yet"? When then? At least now it's logical because a big and central investigation has just ended and a report was published. I am not sure the report makes the case stronger, from what I saw so far it's all weak, but there is at least some momentum now, if someone wants to impeach. In one-two months that momentum is going to be lost. And then what - another investigation? Trying to live off scraps of "attempted cooperation" (a misnomer, really) and "obstruction of justice" (which is not strong enough to result in any convictions, has been talked about for years, and is going to be seen as a weak move by 99% of those who still care about what actually happened)? This looks a little counterproductive to me. No, if someone wants to impeach, the time is now.

[Kasierith]

Not "yet"? When then? At least now it's logical because a big and central investigation has just ended and a report was published. I am not sure the report makes the case stronger, from what I saw so far it's all weak, but there is at least some momentum now, if someone wants to impeach. In one-two months that momentum is going to be lost. And then what - another investigation? Trying to live off scraps of "attempted cooperation" (a misnomer, really) and "obstruction of justice" (which is not strong enough to result in any convictions, has been talked about for years, and is going to be seen as a weak move by 99% of those who still care about what actually happened)? This looks a little counterproductive to me. No, if someone wants to impeach, the time is now.

I already said when. When they uncover some of what Barr put under wraps. I can think of many vivid descriptions of Barr's overall conduct in this matter; forthcoming and honest are not among them. They're going to be concerned about two things: is there something even more damaging that he buried that would make an impeachment from the house even more publicly poignant, and is there anything damaging that he hopes to unveil in the middle of impeachment proceedings to derail them. Keep in mind that this is a fight for public opinion, especially for Warren who needs to fight against three years of people thinking that yes Sanders would be a great president. He doesn't have to hold onto something that is criminally damaging ,but rather just salacious enough to make the impeachment process derail and spoil the one chance.

[rda]

I already said when. When they uncover some of what Barr put under wraps.

Got it. Let's wait and see if Barr actually hid any smoking guns, because, chances are, he didn't have much to hide. I think those "even more" (even more damaging / even more publicly poignant / etc) are a little reaching, there wasn't a lot so far, there's not much reason to be saying "even". Yes, this is a fight for public opinion, exactly, and for that it would be great to have some actual smoking guns, as in, actual cases of cooperation, etc. Because if the impeaching side doesn't have anything like that and tries to win regardless on "obstruction of justice" with the help of big outrage in the media, this will quite likely just lose, people will find it dishonest. In my opinion.

[Blur4stuff]

What's in the redacted version is already enough to impeach. Along with all of the other impeachable actions and inaction from the past two years. The only reason Trump isn't already out of office is because enough republicans are placing power and their personal ambitions above country. There's zero chance that would be the case had the president been a dem with everything else being equal.

Republicans continue making the same mistake. The smarter ones have to see it coming, yet they do nothing. If they continue letting this drag out it's gonna make 2020 even worse for them. The entire next decade as well.

Want to give dems the biggest, most unimaginable victory in 2020? Let Trump stay in office and be on the ballot. Between what's yet to come regarding Mueller and all of the other ongoing investigations, it will turn into an obscene vote result. And that's on top of all the damage Trump has already done to himself and the party that has nothing to do with any investigation. Anyone honestly believe he'll go the next 1.5 years without continually fucking up as well?

Republicans need to dump him now and start salvaging their party for the 2030s.

[rda]

Slightly off-topic: by the way, to those who are unhappy with Trump and were likely asking "how the hell the other half of the country was duped into electing him, how moronic do you have to be to vote that way" - you have it lucky compared to some other democracies. They are about to elect a president in the Ukraine, and the candidate who is likely going to win is a literal clown (a TV showman specializing in "humor") who managed to participate in zero or near-zero conferences with actual journalists, managed to describe precious nothing regarding what the hell he is going to do other than in the very general terms of "yeah, it's going to be good, I am just like you guys", doesn't know shit about anything, cannot talk if his life depended on it, and has much more obvious ties to some of the oligarchs and even Russia (imagine) than Trump ever had. As bad as Trump perhaps was, he was a several hundred times more of a known quantity than that. :-)

[zealo]

Instead of reading articles by the Times and CNN and MSNBC about what the report says, why not just read the report?

When a report is hundreds of pages long, most people simply do not have the time to process all of that in only 2 days.

[Shalcker]

Slightly off-topic: by the way, to those who are unhappy with Trump and were likely asking "how the hell the other half of the country was duped into electing him, how moronic do you have to be to vote that way" - you have it lucky compared to some other democracies. They are about to elect a president in the Ukraine, and the candidate who is likely going to win is a literal clown (a TV showman specializing in "humor") who managed to participate in zero or near-zero conferences with actual journalists, managed to describe precious nothing regarding what the hell he is going to do other than in the very general terms of "yeah, it's going to be good, I am just like you guys", doesn't know shit about anything, cannot talk if his life depended on it, and has much more obvious ties to some of the oligarchs and even Russia (imagine) than Trump ever had. As bad as Trump perhaps was, he was a several hundred times more of a known quantity than that. :-)

Hey, most of his appeal comes from being lead character in "Servant of the People" TV comedy series:

A political comedy about ordinary school teacher becoming the President of Ukraine. He tries to live an ordinary life without all 'President's privileges' and works really hard to build a new country and fight the army of corrupted and deceitful bureaucrats.

[SirBeef]

Got it. Let's wait and see if Barr actually hid any smoking guns, because, chances are, he didn't have much to hide. I think those "even more" (even more damaging / even more publicly poignant / etc) are a little reaching, there wasn't a lot so far, there's not much reason to be saying "even". Yes, this is a fight for public opinion, exactly, and for that it would be great to have some actual smoking guns, as in, actual cases of cooperation, etc. Because if the impeaching side doesn't have anything like that and tries to win regardless on "obstruction of justice" with the help of big outrage in the media, this will quite likely just lose, people will find it dishonest. In my opinion.

The issue is with the way Mueller defined collusion/criminal conspiracy. There were plenty of attempts to collude, but nothing could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that they actually did. The report show numerous time of Trump lying through official statements, which under any Republican control, would be more than enough to impeach, just ask Clinton, and the report basically tells congress to impeach on obstruction because of a DOJ recommendation made in the W. Bush era to keep him from being indicted for war crimes, that says a sitting president cannot not be indicted. Mueller clearly said if there was evidence he did not obstruct they would have said so.

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Slightly off-topic: by the way, to those who are unhappy with Trump and were likely asking "how the hell the other half of the country was duped into electing him, how moronic do you have to be to vote that way" - you have it lucky compared to some other democracies. They are about to elect a president in the Ukraine, and the candidate who is likely going to win is a literal clown (a TV showman specializing in "humor") who managed to participate in zero or near-zero conferences with actual journalists, managed to describe precious nothing regarding what the hell he is going to do other than in the very general terms of "yeah, it's going to be good, I am just like you guys", doesn't know shit about anything, cannot talk if his life depended on it, and has much more obvious ties to some of the oligarchs and even Russia (imagine) than Trump ever had. As bad as Trump perhaps was, he was a several hundred times more of a known quantity than that. :-)

3 out of the last 4 Republican presidents have been morons. HW was the only one with the mental capacity and the understanding of how government works to be President.