[Spoilers] All the horde leaders are terrible

[Stelio Kontos]

So wait Germans got exterminated after WWII? Oh wait they're alive so real life humans gonna do fantasy human things right?

First off, correct analogy, the orcs (and Horde in general) have been very analogous to Nazis.

Second, the Germans survived and were rebuilt because they were of value to the Allies. They weren't primitive savages who lived in mud huts.

[ohwell]

"Ma FASA has doomed our people, if de Alliance would not have killed him I would not know about Bwonsamdis deal to this date. So it was a good thing after all."

While I know this was a joke quote to a certain degree, did she really need to know in the meantime? It seems almost like it's really only the successors had to deal with it when they took the throne. If the Alliance hadn't killed him, she wouldn't need to know for a while(depending on Zandalari lifespan). The current atmosphere wasn't really a good place to tell her and then in him dying she found out anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

First off, correct analogy, the orcs (and Horde in general) have been very analogous to Nazis.

Second, the Germans survived and were rebuilt because they were of value to the Allies. They weren't primitive savages who lived in mud huts.

The orcs had things to offer the humans. Living in mud huts really doesn't have anything to do with the value of a people. They eventually also learned their savagery was unnatural to them. You couldn't say that the acts of concentration camps weren't equally, if not more savage than the things the orcs did? I would definitely say that the Germans(as a people considering they elected the Nazi party and were complicit in a lot of what happened) had done far worse than the orcs and we chose to rehabilitate them as a people.

[Stelio Kontos]

The orcs had things to offer the humans. Living in mud huts really doesn't have anything to do with the value of a people. They eventually also learned their savagery was unnatural to them. You couldn't say that the acts of concentration camps weren't equally, if not more savage than the things the orcs did? I would definitely say that the Germans(as a people considering they elected the Nazi party and were complicit in a lot of what happened) had done far worse than the orcs and we chose to rehabilitate them as a people.

Again, the Germans had value, namely their scientists and industrial potential, as well as a buffer against the USSR. The Native Americans were far milder than the Orcs were, and look what they got; near eradication.

[Hellspawn]

While I know this was a joke quote to a certain degree, did she really need to know in the meantime? It seems almost like it's really only the successors had to deal with it when they took the throne. If the Alliance hadn't killed him, she wouldn't need to know for a while(depending on Zandalari lifespan). The current atmosphere wasn't really a good place to tell her and then in him dying she found out anyway.

She knows now that she can get out of the deal if Sylvanas dies so she is probably happy to stab the Lichqueen aswell.

[Techno-Druid]

Again, the Germans had value, namely their scientists and industrial potential, as well as a buffer against the USSR. The Native Americans were far milder than the Orcs were, and look what they got; near eradication.

To be fair, 90% of Amerindians were wiped out by disease. Native Americans also contributed far more to modern civilization than we give them credit for, namely their domesticated crops (the vast majority of crops we use like tomatoes, squash, potatoes, cocoa, cassava, etc), which led to an unprecedented population explosion in the Old World.

[Trassk]

Hey op, noticed you missed some out.

Thinking kinda bias aren't we?

[Mehrunes]

Hey op, noticed you missed some out.

Thinking kinda bias aren't we?

You mean the OP that opened with acknowledgment that Sylvanas is getting plenty of flack and followed with the notion that the rest of Horde leaders aren't any better? @Indres missed out nothing, you did.

So yeah, thinking kinda bias indeed.

[Eucep]

They are pretty xenophobic. But that's not thralls fault. If anything he should have settled in thunderbluff with the tauren but then we wouldnt have a story.

Just for timeline sake:

When arrived, Grom did start to cut down lumber in Ashenvale for building up a settlement. I think had he not upset the night elves, that Ogrimmar would have been founded in a bit more green zone including putting their farms in ashara.

Thunder bluff was not founded till Ogrimmar was founded, the tauren were nomads with no set home.

[Leodric]

O M F G.. there are flawed characters in a fictional story ya'll.

If only they had all the information we do.

This.

Amusing to see people talking about characters in WoW as if they would have the same information as us or as if they would be real fucking people.
"Oh noez, thrall is so stooopid, why did he settle in a desert" - has to be the most retarded statement in the last months from several delusional posters here.

Infracted.

[azkhane]

Op and most garrosh/sylvanas fanboys are quick to call thrall "green guilt" for settling in durotar, but he had no better option, history teached us that BIG settlements are builded near a clean source of flowing water(rivers) and if posible near a sea to increase food income(fishing) and trade routes by sea, the only place with those requirements available for the horde were durotar and maybe azshara, and azshara terrain is too irregular for a Big city also land trade routes with the tauren will cross "enemy" or at the time not so friendly lands(ashenvale), while still needing to cross dangerous lands (barrens/stonetalon)

[Super Dickmann]

@Leodric @azkhane

You don't need fanfiction to make excuses for Thrall when he says himself in plain text in the Shattering novel that he chose Durotar in order to inflict racial penance on the orcs and the land has been mentioned as inhospitable and crap at all times past WC3.

"When I rebuilt the Horde, I might indeed have taken a more fertile land. But I did not."
...
"I did not, because we had wronged this world..."

Shattering p. 46

The Barrens, Mulgore, Azshara and so on were all better choices and settled as much if the goal was for the orcs to have some place where they could live comfortably. But that was not Green Jesus's aim. Green guilt was the aim.

[azkhane]

@Leodric @azkhane

You don't need fanfiction to make excuses for Thrall when he says himself in plain text in the Shattering novel that he chose Durotar in order to inflict racial penance on the orcs and the land has been mentioned as inhospitable and crap at all times past WC3.


Shattering p. 46

The Barrens, Mulgore, Azshara and so on were all better choices and settled as much if the goal was for the orcs to have some place where they could live comfortably. But that was not Green Jesus's aim. Green guilt was the aim.

Mulgore is already inhabited by his own ppl, settling a band of savage space hobos there alongside the tauren is a bad idea resource and coexistence wise, azshara is too rocky and irregular terrain while being too land isolate from orc allies, barrens in orgrimmar foundation times was a dangerous place full of enemies: quillboars,harpies and a Fucking Big amount of centaurs, you know the motherfuckers that nearly destroy the tauren as a RACE, you see barrens in WoW ages nearly purged of any relevant danger but back in the day that place was a death sentence for any outsider

[Super Dickmann]

Mulgore is already inhabited by his own ppl, settling a band of savage space hobos there alongside the tauren is a bad idea resource and coexistence wise, azshara is too rocky and irregular terrain while being too land isolate from orc allies, barrens in orgrimmar foundation times was a dangerous place full of enemies: quillboars,harpies and a Fucking Big amount of centaurs, you know the motherfuckers that nearly destroy the tauren as a RACE, you see barrens in WoW ages nearly purged of any relevant danger but back in the day that place was a death sentence for any outsider

Thrall himself doesn't raise these arguments and flat out says that he could have settled in a better place, but didn't. Later on on the same page he goes on to say that the one year war in Northrend has sapped the land to its limit and that without hunting rights and wood from Ashenvale, i.e night elven handouts the orcs would starve. Durotar is manifestly ill-fit for purpose and intentionally so.

But addressing the substance, I don't buy it either. Especially as regards comparing Azshara and Durotar. Durotar is a wasteland marked with constant canyons. It's also uneven ground. At the time where Thrall settled the orcs the tauren were nomads. Nothing was preventing him from settling in in Mulgore as it wasn't tauren land at the time, nor would living with a more peaceful people where they could learn from work against them. Your view of the Barrens is mistaken, since the orcs were able to set the crossroads and it's not like having a hard land where they'd have to fight and conquer to hold what they have is a bad thing for orcs. It's a selling point. That it's so incredibly shit that it'd challenge the orcs is the one argument Thrall voices in Durotar's favour after all.

[azkhane]

Mulgore is the ancestral tauren land, tauren were nomads like native american tribes but they had lands that they consider theirs were they used to return, durotar have canyons that can be used as a defensive choke point strategy, azshara dont. Barrens crossroad started as a advanced outpost and safe place for trading caravans, is easier to maintain a military outpost on a hostile land without a close source of current water (do you see many rivers in barrens? Settling there without a constant and CLEAN water source is Madness, pools and underground water is dangerous and will end being polluted by citizen wastes or agriculture/livestock wastes and can be easyly poisoned by enemies) so barrens was even worse option, also Its not defensible and that for a warminded people with a lot enemies sorrounding them is a NOPE

[Super Dickmann]

Mulgore is the ancestral tauren land, tauren were nomads like native american tribes but they had lands that they consider theirs were they used to return, durotar have canyons that can be used as a defensive choke point strategy, azshara dont. Barrens crossroad started as a advanced outpost and safe place for trading caravans, is easier to maintain a military outpost on a hostile land without a close source of current water (do you see many rivers in barrens? Settling there without a constant and CLEAN water source is Madness, pools and underground water is dangerous and will end being polluted by citizen wastes or agriculture/livestock wastes and can be easyly poisoned by enemies) so barrens was even worse option, also Its not defensible and that for a warminded people with a lot enemies sorrounding them is a NOPE

Once again, Thrall states in plain text that Durotar was deliberately chosen because it was crap. Outside of that this is a strange argument, especially as regards the Barrens. The only river in Durotar is one it borders with the more lush Barrens. Both regions have equal access to it. The Barrens also has oases and underground supplies of water. Sure, some of them might go bad, but they still exist, which isn't the case for Durotar. The Barrens also have more flat lands that can (and actually are) used for farms. The orcs already breed animals and till the land in the Barrens in-game, because what is available in Durotar is insufficient for their needs. Defensibility is moot when not only is your city still capable of being attacked from three angles, but the land is incapable of sustaining life by itself without access to other lands.

As for Mulgore, I'm still skeptical that they wouldn't let the orcs live with them if it came to it, considering that they owe their ability to settle at all to the orcs. Azshara meanwhile has tons more water, tons more lumber and more animals than Durotar, the only thing that it doesn't have going for it is the fact that it's cursed, but then starvation is also pretty curse-like.

[Mehrunes]

This.

Amusing to see people talking about characters in WoW as if they would have the same information as us or as if they would be real fucking people.
"Oh noez, thrall is so stooopid, why did he settle in a desert" - has to be the most retarded statement in the last months from several delusional posters here.

What's amusing to see is the irony of you flinging shit around when you don't know what the hell you're talking about. It's not anything new, mind you, but it remains amusing nonetheless.

Op and most garrosh/sylvanas fanboys are quick to call thrall "green guilt" for settling in durotar, but he had no better option, history teached us that BIG settlements are builded near a clean source of flowing water(rivers) and if posible near a sea to increase food income(fishing) and trade routes by sea, the only place with those requirements available for the horde were durotar and maybe azshara, and azshara terrain is too irregular for a Big city also land trade routes with the tauren will cross "enemy" or at the time not so friendly lands(ashenvale), while still needing to cross dangerous lands (barrens/stonetalon)

Ah, yes. Cities right in the middle of the desert are totally how humans settled. Because just having a river or a sea nearby was enough. Because settlements of this size were totally built by people still relying on hunting-gathering as primary supply of food rather than farming the land.

[ravenmoon]

What's amusing to see is the irony of you flinging shit around when you don't know what the hell you're talking about. It's not anything new, mind you, but it remains amusing nonetheless.

Oh my Mehrunes you ain't changed have you, you're so like my boyfriend. Are you angry all the time you post? Or do you generally love confrontation

I sometimes wonder what sort of life you live, you upbringing and background, you in a class room or on the sports field or any setting you can be competitive. Who your friends or siblings were, and if your life is constantly a battle or you are constantly angry. .. so curious.


I did notice you took a break , was that from wow altogether or just from posting? And I can tell you're not impressed with what's come out recently for a while. Any silver linings for you in the wow story? or anything that's been done in Legion and BfA? I'm curious because I can tell by the above response and others from you I've read that you think a lot of the stuff is shit, but what I don't know is the stuff you actually liked. Presumably you still either play wow or check on on it or you wouldn't post, somethings got to peak your interest.

Infracted.

[Mehrunes]

@Leodric @azkhane

You don't need fanfiction to make excuses for Thrall when he says himself in plain text in the Shattering novel that he chose Durotar in order to inflict racial penance on the orcs and the land has been mentioned as inhospitable and crap at all times past WC3.


Shattering p. 46

The Barrens, Mulgore, Azshara and so on were all better choices and settled as much if the goal was for the orcs to have some place where they could live comfortably. But that was not Green Jesus's aim. Green guilt was the aim.

The mistake is assuming posters that are throwing Sylvanas fanboys around as an only way to dismiss an argument they have actually know the lore. Historically that has never been the case.

Mulgore is already inhabited by his own ppl, settling a band of savage space hobos there alongside the tauren is a bad idea resource and coexistence wise, azshara is too rocky and irregular terrain while being too land isolate from orc allies, barrens in orgrimmar foundation times was a dangerous place full of enemies: quillboars,harpies and a Fucking Big amount of centaurs, you know the motherfuckers that nearly destroy the tauren as a RACE, you see barrens in WoW ages nearly purged of any relevant danger but back in the day that place was a death sentence for any outsider

Except there are Centaurs, Quillboars and Harpies in Durotar as well and those had to be dealt with to secure the land there for the construction of Orgrimmar. And Centaurs never "nearly destroyed the Tauren as a RACE". They nearly destroyed Cairne's tribe. As for Mulgore, the zone is sparsely populated and most of the land is free real estate where more farms and a city for the Orcs could be built. Hell, even Mulgore has Harpies and Centaur that are currently occupying some land that could be used by the Orcs instead. On top of all of that, you're outright arguing against Thrall himself here. So you have no argument whatsoever.

Thrall himself doesn't raise these arguments and flat out says that he could have settled in a better place, but didn't. Later on on the same page he goes on to say that the one year war in Northrend has sapped the land to its limit and that without hunting rights and wood from Ashenvale, i.e night elven handouts the orcs would starve. Durotar is manifestly ill-fit for purpose and intentionally so.

Which begs the question, what was the war in Northrend supposed to sap Durotar of in the first place? Other than some baobab-looking trees here and there and Quillboar vines the place has basically no other vegetation. And neither the trees nor the vines seem to bear any useful fruits. The few non-carnivore animals that live there probably have to rely on photosynthesis.

Mulgore is the ancestral tauren land, tauren were nomads like native american tribes but they had lands that they consider theirs were they used to return, durotar have canyons that can be used as a defensive choke point strategy, azshara dont. Barrens crossroad started as a advanced outpost and safe place for trading caravans, is easier to maintain a military outpost on a hostile land without a close source of current water (do you see many rivers in barrens? Settling there without a constant and CLEAN water source is Madness, pools and underground water is dangerous and will end being polluted by citizen wastes or agriculture/livestock wastes and can be easyly poisoned by enemies) so barrens was even worse option, also Its not defensible and that for a warminded people with a lot enemies sorrounding them is a NOPE

Funny how previously you tried to dismiss Azshara over its uneven terrain even though that terrain has potential for defensive chokeholds that you're not using to defend Orgrimmar. The same applies to Barren's water. When it has access to the same exact river and the same exact sea you used as an argument in Durotar's favor as well (on top of having multiple oases). Your argument is not consistent whatsoever. Back to the chokepoint, you do realize there is only one real point of entry into the entirety of Mulgore, making it even more defensible?

[Demetrion]

"Ma FASA has doomed our people, if de Alliance would not have killed him I would not know about Bwonsamdis deal to this date. So it was a good thing after all."

I'm really doing my best to cope with this bad writing, but my instinct tells me it'll be just like that, seeing how they made Yrel forget about everything that Grommash did to her people when we faced Archimonde. She did get the revenge later on but still....

[Leodric]

Mulgore is already inhabited by his own ppl, settling a band of savage space hobos there alongside the tauren is a bad idea resource and coexistence wise, azshara is too rocky and irregular terrain while being too land isolate from orc allies, barrens in orgrimmar foundation times was a dangerous place full of enemies: quillboars,harpies and a Fucking Big amount of centaurs, you know the motherfuckers that nearly destroy the tauren as a RACE, you see barrens in WoW ages nearly purged of any relevant danger but back in the day that place was a death sentence for any outsider

Exactly this. He basically had no other choice anyways and fighting with the night elves without demon lust and especially after fighting the burning legion would be a huge mistake