So apparently sub is dead?

[Lazuli]

Sub died in Legion bruh

[Lodravel]

I swear to God, you are actually [...]

Snipedisnap.

This must've been the funniest thing I've read all week. A typical case of "nerd shames other nerd for being nerdier", though.

[elfporn]

Snipedisnap.

This must've been the funniest thing I've read all week. A typical case of "nerd shames other nerd for being nerdier", though.

Dudes post was the highlight of my week. And hes 100% right. Shoegazing has been on his soapbox for years. You can even go back to legion beta posts where he was ranting about the same shit, and we werent yet tired of his bs

[shoegazing]

I swear to God, you are actually a retard.

Thanks for the laughs! But for your information I have a job that I love as a software engineer at a major company in the Linux world, and for the past 8 years I've also volunteered my time with an animal rescue organization as well as a math and science tutor... I've watched my students graduate, and get jobs at NASA -- what are you doing to give back IRL?

The personal attacks just demonstrate that you aren't capable of arguing why I'm wrong about the game so you're trying to change the subject to something else. If you had anything worthwhile to add to this thread, it wouldn't be necessary to resort to this.

Dudes post was the highlight of my week. And hes 100% right. Shoegazing has been on his soapbox for years. You can even go back to legion beta posts where he was ranting about the same shit, and we werent yet tired of his bs

The same goes to you. If you haven't got anything intelligent to add about the state of the game, why are you here taking up space?

[Ealyssa]

Snipedisnap.

This must've been the funniest thing I've read all week. A typical case of "nerd shames other nerd for being nerdier", though.

He's not wrong tho. That guy is a broken record...

[shoegazing]

He's not wrong tho. That guy is a broken record...

He is wrong about a lot, and clearly trying to make this a referendum about my personality because he doesn't feel he can argue effectively in the realm of ideas.

I encourage all of you making these posts to bring the thread back to its original topic -- Subtlety Rogue -- instead of derailing it.

[elfporn]

He is wrong about a lot, and clearly trying to make this a referendum about my personality because he doesn't feel he can argue effectively in the realm of ideas.

I encourage all of you making these posts to bring the thread back to its original topic -- Subtlety Rogue -- instead of derailing it.

No, the dude was right. Youve been saying exactly the same things about sub rogue for years(with hefty doses of rose-tinted nostalgic opinions) while everyone else has moved on with their lives and/or the game.

He was basically saying "get over it and move on" albeit very colorfully. We all know that wont happen though.

On topic: yes, sub is in a bad place right now. Quite likely due more to lower raid/m+ viability coupled with the azerite system. Subs aoe sucks balls, and single target cant keep up.

[shoegazing]

No, the dude was right. Youve been saying exactly the same things about sub rogue for years(with hefty doses of rose-tinted nostalgic opinions) while everyone else has moved on with their lives and/or the game.

He was basically saying "get over it and move on" albeit very colorfully. We all know that wont happen though.

On topic: yes, sub is in a bad place right now. Quite likely due more to lower raid/m+ viability coupled with the azerite system. Subs aoe sucks balls, and single target cant keep up.

So it's a flaw somehow that my message about Subtlety Rogue design has been consistent?

"Get over it and move on like everyone else did" so while Subtlety used to be by far the most popular spec for Rogue PvP, now there are only 13 Rogues in EU+NA combined rated over 2200+ in 3s as Subtlety. So I guess almost the entire Rogue PvP community has moved on. You're fine with this? I'm not.

As for AoE, don't make me laugh. Subtlety has never had AoE as a strength and it should never have AoE as a strength. If you want AoE damage, Subtlety is the wrong spec. For all the talk from the PvE crowd about how great it is to have "less homogeneous" Rogue specs, apparently that applies only to aesthetics/visuals/ClassFantasyTM because the mechanical changes y'all support are the most disgusting examples spec of homogenization that have ever existed in this game.

[elfporn]

So it's a flaw somehow that my message about Subtlety Rogue design has been consistent?

"Get over it and move on like everyone else did" so while Subtlety used to be by far the most popular spec for Rogue PvP, now there are only 13 Rogues in EU+NA combined rated over 2200+ in 3s as Subtlety. So I guess almost the entire Rogue PvP community has moved on. You're fine with this? I'm not.

As for AoE, don't make me laugh. Subtlety has never had AoE as a strength and it should never have AoE as a strength. If you want AoE damage, Subtlety is the wrong spec. For all the talk from the PvE crowd about how great it is to have "less homogeneous" Rogue specs, apparently that applies only to aesthetics/visuals/ClassFantasyTM because the mechanical changes y'all support are the most disgusting examples spec of homogenization that have ever existed in this game.

And you're proving the point made in the long ass post earlier.

[Goldfingaz]

So it's a flaw somehow that my message about Subtlety Rogue design has been consistent?

"Get over it and move on like everyone else did" so while Subtlety used to be by far the most popular spec for Rogue PvP, now there are only 13 Rogues in EU+NA combined rated over 2200+ in 3s as Subtlety. So I guess almost the entire Rogue PvP community has moved on. You're fine with this? I'm not.

As for AoE, don't make me laugh. Subtlety has never had AoE as a strength and it should never have AoE as a strength. If you want AoE damage, Subtlety is the wrong spec. For all the talk from the PvE crowd about how great it is to have "less homogeneous" Rogue specs, apparently that applies only to aesthetics/visuals/ClassFantasyTM because the mechanical changes y'all support are the most disgusting examples spec of homogenization that have ever existed in this game.

Sub Rogue wasn't amazing in BC/Wrath by any means, sans PvP. PvE it was atrocious and you would stick with Combat. Assassination was alright early BC until things were tweaked.

Cataclysm I don't remember Sub rogue being anything great either, nor with MoP. So that leaves us with WoD I guess which I didn't really play because it was atrocious.

Sub was originally only good for PvP and nothing else, it rarely made appearances in PvE until I guess WoD? Rogues generally always have had 1 useless spec at any given time (Never really useless but if the best players in the world use any other spec, then that one spec is dead apparently).

To be honest, throughout WoW the most reliable PvE specs have been Combat(Outlaw) and Assassination, whereas PvP is typically Sub/Assassination. Hanging onto this idea that Sub Rogue was some amazing spec seems asinine if it was only good in one expansion (PvE). PvP, well any PvPer should know not to get attached to any spec as they change often.

This is a big reason why I think you're sounding like a broken record. Sub was hardly the go to PvE spec, definitely was PvP more often than not, but still wasn't some amazing spec throughout history.

[shoegazing]

Sub Rogue wasn't amazing in BC/Wrath by any means, sans PvP. PvE it was atrocious and you would stick with Combat. Assassination was alright early BC until things were tweaked.

Cataclysm I don't remember Sub rogue being anything great either, nor with MoP. So that leaves us with WoD I guess which I didn't really play because it was atrocious.

Sub was originally only good for PvP and nothing else, it rarely made appearances in PvE until I guess WoD? Rogues generally always have had 1 useless spec at any given time (Never really useless but if the best players in the world use any other spec, then that one spec is dead apparently).

To be honest, throughout WoW the most reliable PvE specs have been Combat(Outlaw) and Assassination, whereas PvP is typically Sub/Assassination. Hanging onto this idea that Sub Rogue was some amazing spec seems asinine if it was only good in one expansion (PvE). PvP, well any PvPer should know not to get attached to any spec as they change often.

This is a big reason why I think you're sounding like a broken record. Sub was hardly the go to PvE spec, definitely was PvP more often than not, but still wasn't some amazing spec throughout history.

I'm a PvP player and Subtlety has been the go-to PvP spec for almost the entirety of the game's history (Assassination was popular in NA in WotLK, Combat and Assassination were both popular at times during WoD).

So you're missing the point entirely. As a PvP player who has mained Subtlety since 2005 I expect that it should continue to be an awesome and fun choice for Rogue PvP like it has always been during every other phase of the game's history. Screwing over the existing audience in attempt to satisfy a new audience is not going to go over well with this existing audience. This is a normal and expected reaction to this kind of design change.

[Goldfingaz]

I'm a PvP player and Subtlety has been the go-to PvP spec for almost the entirety of the game's history (Assassination was popular in NA in WotLK, Combat and Assassination were both popular at times during WoD).

So you're missing the point entirely. As a PvP player who has mained Subtlety since 2005 I expect that it should continue to be an awesome and fun choice for Rogue PvP like it has always been during every other phase of the game's history. Screwing over the existing audience in attempt to satisfy a new audience is not going to go over well with this existing audience. This is a normal and expected reaction to this kind of design change.

Assassination was also popular early BC, as well as combat with stun maces etc. Point being, while Sub has been an off and on again spec, and lets face it what was the fun and awesomeness of the spec beyond stun locking people? Did you want to be able to continue killing people in a CS/KS combo? That's not fun. Moral of the story is, you have rose tinted goggles and Sub wasn't always the go to spec. More often than not it was popular sure, but that doesn't mean it should always be the best just because you like it. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if you started rogue in Wrath/Cat and that's why you think the way you do.

Anyone who actually plays PvP and has for years, have become accustomed to Having to change specs by patch and season.

[shoegazing]

Assassination was also popular early BC, as well as combat with stun maces etc. Point being, while Sub has been an off and on again spec, and lets face it what was the fun and awesomeness of the spec beyond stun locking people? Did you want to be able to continue killing people in a CS/KS combo? That's not fun. Moral of the story is, you have rose tinted goggles and Sub wasn't always the go to spec. More often than not it was popular sure, but that doesn't mean it should always be the best just because you like it. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if you started rogue in Wrath/Cat and that's why you think the way you do.

Anyone who actually plays PvP and has for years, have become accustomed to Having to change specs by patch and season.

I started playing Rogue in Vanilla and played both 31/8/12 and 21/8/22 (also played combat, cb/hemo, even combat daggers for a while to raid). I've played every Rogue spec in every expansion in this game's history and Subtlety has always been my favorite.

But your argument is ridiculous. Don't tell me that I've had to change specs by patch and season. I was proud to play Subtlety (and do quite well with it) during WoD season 1 for example when every fotm Rogue was rerolling combat to drop people in kidney redspree.

Subtlety has been the go-to Rogue PvP spec in every single expansion in the game's history up until the Legion redesign, with the exception of WotLK where assassination was more popular (in NA but not in KR). Pointing to one or two seasons, out of dozens, where another spec was fotm is ridiculous. You're just straight up denying facts at this point.

Also, the fact that you think this is about killing someone in CS --> KS is insulting. Subtlety currently has more access to stuns than ever before currently, via Shadow Dance. Cheap Shot, Cheap Shot, Cheap Shot, nobody asked for this mindless Cheap Shot spam instead of having a variety of tools for control that encourage situational decision-making instead of thoughtless Cheap Shot spam.

I've played Rogue PvP since 2005. Everything from WPvP, BGs, dueling, rising to Gladiator rank in arenas (and many times Duelist) and you want to reduce over a decade of my experience to "he just wants to be able to drop people in a CS --> KS lol". That is the most stupidly uninformed and frankly insulting thing I have yet read in this thread. It's clear you haven't even made the very basic effort to understand my point of view, so why are you wasting everyone's time by participating in bad faith?

[Goldfingaz]

I started playing Rogue in Vanilla and played both 31/8/12 and 21/8/22 (also played combat, cb/hemo, even combat daggers for a while to raid). I've played every Rogue spec in every expansion in this game's history and Subtlety has always been my favorite.

But your argument is ridiculous. Don't tell me that I've had to change specs by patch and season. I was proud to play Subtlety (and do quite well with it) during WoD season 1 for example when every fotm Rogue was rerolling combat to drop people in kidney redspree.

Subtlety has been the go-to Rogue PvP spec in every single expansion in the game's history up until the Legion redesign, with the exception of WotLK where assassination was more popular (in NA but not in KR). Pointing to one or two seasons, out of dozens, where another spec was fotm is ridiculous. You're just straight up denying facts at this point.

Also, the fact that you think this is about killing someone in CS --> KS is insulting. Subtlety currently has more access to stuns than ever before currently, via Shadow Dance. Cheap Shot, Cheap Shot, Cheap Shot, nobody asked for this mindless Cheap Shot spam instead of having a variety of tools for control that encourage situational decision-making instead of thoughtless Cheap Shot spam.

I've played Rogue PvP since 2005. Everything from WPvP, BGs, dueling, rising to Gladiator rank in arenas (and many times duelist) and you want to reduce my experience to "he just wants to be able to drop people in a CS --> KS lol". That is the most stupidly uninformed and frankly insulting thing I have yet read in this thread. It's clear you haven't even made the very basic effort to understand my point of view, so why are you wasting everyone's time by participating in bad faith?

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...shoeg%C3%A4zer

Is this not you?

[shoegazing]

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...shoeg%C3%A4zer

Is this not you?

Yup, that is one of my Rogues.

[Goldfingaz]

Yup, that is one of my Rogues.

Ok was just checking. Also what made Sub fun to you? Was it Hemo spamming(lol)? Was it Stun locking? Was it the control? Was it the synergy with Disc/Mage way back when?

What made it fun and amazing? Cause last I checked it was one of the easiest most mindless specs I've ever needed to play in PvP.

[Kaver]

Can we get back to the point: Performance of Sub Rogues in raids (PVE).

… instead of turning another thread into Shoegazing's personal blog. We get the point by now.. he don't like the current sub rogue in pvp. Fair enough, but let's not go on about it like a broken record.


So... for a short term fix, would you like to see a simple buff to Sub Rogues or a small rework of some abilities to increase their performance in raids?

[denchen]

Sub is ok in pve. It is now a pure ST spec that can do comparable st damage to assassination with the right gear and good play. Only a handful of dedicated players play sub, most people play assassination because 1) as sub you have to tryhard to compete with sin, 2) feels bad to play for some people who are used to the old big dance cd playstyle. Sub aoe is pretty weak without talenting/gearing into it and gimping some st damage, even then its so mediocre you might as well label it non-existent.

As for shorterm fix, something like a 7% buff to evicerate/shadowstrike damage might push more people to play the spec in raids.

[Critical92]

Currently the gloomblade build is rising and with some tweaks to the apl it does almost the same damage as the es dance spam build in sims. In realworld scenarios it could even do more because it uses alacrity and not es.
That is a sign that sub has more problems than blizz likes to admit. I mean it can't be intended to never ever use shadowstrike in dance because you have 2+ perf traits and do comparable damage. Also it adds a position requierement to a talent that lifts the requierement of backstab.
Shuriken combo removal opened ways to glory but blizz like always can't find the door.

With the essences in 8.2 it is possible that gloomblade even surpasses other builds. Maybe we even see the return of darkshadow with juicier dances like old dfa without dfa.

In pvp sub is scuffed because it got to many modifier nerfs. Blizz keeps it low because of the stun availability. Combine stunspam with damage and we get the next fotm monstrosity like ks redbuff combat was one. Blizz doesn't know how to handle their own design and thats why currently most play assa in pvp.
You have good burst, good sustain and a bit of control with kidney, blind and snares but not too much to be broken.

[Malechai]

I swear to God, you are actually a retard.

I have seen you on just about every single Rogue forum, from official to unofficial, from Blizzard approved to obscure ezboards, without fail, without missing a single beat always, always come to any Subtlety topic and go off on this exact same rant. I'm not sure if you have the most finely tuned bout of autism that some higher power chose to beta test with you as the prototype or if you perhaps inherited the most useless superpower known to mankind but whenever anyone, anywhere, at any time discusses Subtlety you will have some sort of notification go off in your head that will see you rush towards and proceed to hatefuck that topic with the same rants and tirades you've been doing since 2015.

Shoegazer, I honestly think you need to invest in coaching a little league baseball team or work in an animal shelter or something that makes you less obsessed and ready to shout like a doomsayer with a sandwich board located in the bowels of a 1980s New York City subway station. I've seen many odd behaviors over the years but this is one that takes the cake. It almost fascinates me. You're like Rainman but you speak in more complete sentences. An idiot savant who only has mastery of going off about how awesome Subtlety used to be. Only you've been doing it for nearly 5 fucking years now.

What do you actually do for a living? Do you have any aspirations, any goals, any actual dreams of what you'll be doing in ten years? How old even are you? You are the most strange motherfucker I have ever seen on the Internet, it is to the point you actually unsettle me. Someone like you actually exists. You actually see what some silly video game company did to a past-its-prime MMORPG as overwhelming injustice to your very livelihood.

You are like that guy who never got over his first break up and are doomed to spend the rest of his life replaying the moment in his head over and over and over again. Except this is you having some emotional tether to a goofy ass specialization in World of Warcraft.

Spend whatever disability money you get from the government on an escort, dress her up like the Subtlety icon, and fuck the holy shit out of her. Maybe that will relieve you of all these frustrations at long last and you can actually become a normal person again and not a timelocked 2015 ranting dipshit.

LOL amazing. thanks for the laugh.