Thrall will return as Warchief

[Syegfryed]

Just because he’s retired. While he said he’s not retiring from Thrall, he’s not going to do as much. Thrall was written out as losing his power and Doomhammer just months before Metzen announced his retirement. I don’t think it’s a coincidence. The story took advantage of Metzen’s absence.

he was going to do surgery too, not just retirement, and he was tired, needed a break, now he can do his things and find enough time to do voice for just one character

most of voice actors do dozens of works simultaneous, so its not rly a problem.

[Schattenlied]

because both were spellcasters, duh

Nice cop-out bub.

First you say they both agreed then you say they didn't and it was just unspoken because "they both spellcasters", despite every other rule being specified outright.

Keep stretching.

Shields can be considered blunt weapons, and are used as such in WoW regularly, did she violate her own one weapon rule by using a shield? Shields weren't explicitly allowed so it must have been cheating, right? Or, we can go with the far more likely scenario, the one supported by evidence, that if the rules don't forbid something, it's allowed.

Also, if magic is indeed a weapon as you say, in declaring her "one weapon" rule that should have forbade magic, because using a weapon and magic would violate the "one weapon" rule, and yet they both used magic and a weapon and no one cared. Therefore I rest that magic is not considered a weapon in Mak'gora, and is therefore not forbidden by the one weapon rule as you claim.

[Powerogue]

I was banking on Baine, but with Thrall confirmed with his new model to at least make an appearance I'd say he's the most likely candidate.

[bufferunderrun]

If blizzard is smart will stop with this warchief nonsense and go for a council, thrall could be the council head at best.

[Syegfryed]

If blizzard is smart will stop with this warchief nonsense and go for a council, thrall could be the council head at best.

basically became like alliance before? it would be terrible all the same.

[Techno-Druid]

If blizzard is smart will stop with this warchief nonsense and go for a council, thrall could be the council head at best.

I agree. I think the Horde should have a War Council with the Warchief returning to being more of an orcish title, maybe with nominal leadership of the council.

[Trassk]

A Mary Sue is, by definition, a perfect character who makes no mistakes. Anyone know knows anything about the lore knows Thrall has made many mistakes, some of them severe. That makes it impossible for him to be a Mary Sue. People incorrectly use it for any character they don't like.

yep. but like say, people use the term without even realizing the fact. I mean you can actually look up lists of mary sues in fiction to understand actual examples. James bond is one, because he's perfect in every way and always wins, always gets the girl, always solves the crime without any repercussions. Bella Swan is another because despite being a boring highschool girl, all the men love her, fight wars over her, despite having the personality of a plank.
Ray from the new star wars is another, since she is the best jedi despite having limited training yet now always wins in every fight, no consequences for anything she does.

Thrall though, he has faced consequences for his choices, choosing garrosh as warchief which lead to the death of one of his close friends, and the conflict that came after, and the fight that ended up having with him causing him to lose his connection to the elements, this are consequences for actions he's taken. He tries to fight for a better future for the horde but actions take place that make those ideals fall flat, even bringing the forsaken into the horde might count as another mistake thats lead to this problem now.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree. I think the Horde should have a War Council with the Warchief returning to being more of an orcish title, maybe with nominal leadership of the council.

admittedly, it would be interesting going forward how the horde would handle itself with this, no warchief in charge, but a unified council who come together on important business addressing the whole horde, while the nations of each take care of their own problems in their own lands.

- - - Updated - - -

basically became like alliance before? it would be terrible all the same.

having a warchief has proven to be less successful having such a powerful force dependent on the whims of one person. Its happened twice in this horde that a leader can break apart what the horde is meant to stand for, a unity of nations.

[cparle87]

yep. but like say, people use the term without even realizing the fact. I mean you can actually look up lists of mary sues in fiction to understand actual examples. James bond is one, because he's perfect in every way and always wins, always gets the girl, always solves the crime without any repercussions. Bella Swan is another because despite being a boring highschool girl, all the men love her, fight wars over her, despite having the personality of a plank.
Ray from the new star wars is another, since she is the best jedi despite having limited training yet now always wins in every fight, no consequences for anything she does.

I'd actually disagree with you about James Bond. He made mistakes, he lost fights many times. Hell, if you look at the book only like 2 of the dozens of women he was ever close to are actually still alive. Dude's been widowered a dozen times across the continuity.

[Syegfryed]

having a warchief has proven to be less successful having such a powerful force dependent on the whims of one person. Its happened twice in this horde that a leader can break apart what the horde is meant to stand for, a unity of nations.

the new horde only had like 4 or 5 warchief, and one was beaten with the villain bait, the other was villain and a bad option from the start, the record is fine

the problem its not the form of government, but blizzard who don't know how to handle it, they would fuck up everything with a council too;

[Schattenlied]

the problem its not the form of government, but blizzard who don't know how to handle it, they would fuck up everything with a council too;

I'm gonna disagree there.

Any system of government where one person holds ultimate power, and everyone else is sworn to obey them no matter what no questions asked under pain of death is an absolutely horrible system of government.

If there were a council of all the Horde racial leaders (Sylvanas, Saurfang, Baine, Gallywix, whoever is in charge of the Darkspear right now (seriously, who is it?), Lor'themar, Ji Firepaw, Mayla Highmountain) instead of a warchief, this war would have never even happened... How many of them do you think would have actually gone along with Sylvanas' inane plan to sack Teldrassil if they were allowed to say "no, that's fucked up, we're not going to start a full scale war just because you and Genn don't like each other"?

I'm gonna say that maybe Gallywix would have said yes, everyone else would have told her to fuck off... But they can't do that right now because she'll brand them traitors and have them executed.

One person holding ultimate power is absolutely absurd... Having a supreme commander of military operations during wartime is one thing, but one person being able to throw everyone into a full scale war over a personal grudge? No, that's absolute bollocks.

[Syegfryed]

I'm gonna disagree there.

Any system of government where one person holds ultimate power, and everyone else is sworn to obey them no matter what no questions asked under pain of death is an absolutely horrible system of government.

the "horrible system of government was doing fine until they start to fuck things up with Garrosh on MOP

Bad writing did that, not the system

a council would be bad because the bad writing too, no matter if its better to the today standards of real world

One person holding ultimate power is absolutely absurd... Having a supreme commander of military operations during wartime is one thing, but one person being able to throw everyone into a full scale war over a personal grudge? No, that's absolute bollocks.

kings have absolutely power, emperors, dictators, they can act fast and immediately towards something while in a council everything need to be discussed over

ITs the perfect system for the races of the world, they just need to stop fucking with everything.

[Schattenlied]

the "horrible system of government was doing fine until they start to fuck things up with Garrosh on MOP

Bad writing did that, not the system

a council would be bad because the bad writing too, no matter if its better to the today standards of real world



kings have absolutely power, emperors, dictators, they can act fast and immediately towards something while in a council everything need to be discussed over

ITs the perfect system for the races of the world, they just need to stop fucking with everything.

No, it's not the perfect system, because that one person can fuck everything up, as the writing has demonstrated. Whether you think the writing is bad or not the writing didn't make the flaw in the system, it just showed it to you, that flaw has always been there and always will be, all it takes is the wrong person sitting at the wheel to throw the entire faction over a cliff. Not having that vulnerability is well worth having a council need to "discuss" things, that's the entire point of the council, to make sure one asshole doesn't throw the entire faction into something that the majority of it doesn't want.

The story of this war should include them adapting to the obvious flaws in their system of government, not just appointing a new leader and going "well, shit, I sure hope that doesn't happen again, right guys?", THAT would be bad writing.

[Syegfryed]

No, it's not the perfect system, because that one person can fuck everything up, as the writing has demonstrated. Whether you think the writing is bad or not the writing didn't make the flaw in the system, it just showed it to you, that flaw has always been there and always will be, all it takes is the wrong person sitting at the wheel to throw the entire faction over a cliff. Not having that vulnerability is well worth having a council need to "discuss" things, that's the entire point of the council, to make sure one asshole doesn't throw the entire faction into something that the majority of it doesn't want.

one person can fuck everything even if they are not the leader, one person can subvert a council, He can corrupt and manipulate, its the same shit

i wanna say perfect for the horde, not world, wrong thing

The system is good for the horde from the 5 warchiefs we had in the new horde, only one was bad, cause we all knew from the start that things wre going to shit, and the other was hit with the villain bat after a good work

The story of this war should include them adapting to the obvious flaws in their system of government, not just appointing a new leader and going "well, shit, I sure hope that doesn't happen again, right guys?", THAT would be bad writing.

this was already done in MOP, they don't need to do that

this entire mess should not happen exactly because mop already happened, to show that no matter if the leader have absolute power the races would not blindly follow it, but guess what, they are pretending mop didn't happen, and are making the horde do the exactly same mistaken but worse, this is not the government fault anymore

[Thage]

the "horrible system of government was doing fine until they start to fuck things up with Garrosh on MOP

Bad writing did that, not the system

a council would be bad because the bad writing too, no matter if its better to the today standards of real world

Fair's fair, the main reason Garrosh was able to abuse the system is the same reason Blackhand was able to abuse the system. Thrall trusted that his successors would act with honor and abide by fair play while on the throne, because Thrall was fairly naive. Ergo he never thought to instate any safeguards to protect the Horde from a power-mad tyrant, or a Warchief who broke under the pressure of a throne he was neither prepared for nor seemed to want all that much.

That all being said, if we can get Warcraft 3, take-no-shit, offer-one-hand-but-arm-the-other, warrior Thrall back, then welcome home, Warchief.

[mickybrighteyes]

I'm gonna disagree there.

Any system of government where one person holds ultimate power, and everyone else is sworn to obey them no matter what no questions asked under pain of death is an absolutely horrible system of government.

The problem is both sides have this system. So calling it bad on one side and ignoring the other is just missing the point.

The problem is that according to the narrative it's only bad on one side because they keep using that side to illustrate how terrible it is.

The system is fine when a decent leader runs things and people aren't bucking against the system simply because they don't like the leader.On the other side the same interpretations can be drawn and punished accordingly but the story forgets that's a thing or just places all blame in very few people. Anduin has the same Authority MORE authority than Garithos who basically locked people up for execution for FOLLOWING orders and completing assigned tasks.

Neither faction is a republic or democracy, but only one side gets it's bad side aired out in every storyline.

[Thage]

The problem is both sides have this system. So calling it bad on one side and ignoring the other is just missing the point.

The problem is that according to the narrative it's only bad on one side because they keep using that side to illustrate how terrible it is.

The system is fine when a decent leader runs things and people aren't bucking against the system simply because they don't like the leader.On the other side the same interpretations can be drawn and punished accordingly but the story forgets that's a thing or just places all blame in very few people. Anduin has the same Authority MORE authority than Garithos who basically locked people up for execution for FOLLOWING orders and completing assigned tasks.

Neither faction is a republic or democracy, but only one side gets it's bad side aired out in every storyline.

The other thing worth noting is that the Alliance has safeguards in place. Anduin can't order Tyrande to commit her troops to Dazar'Alor like Sylvanas can command Gallywix to send goblins to infiltrate Boralus, as an example. Tyrande can, at any time (and has in 8.1) withdraw her troops to deal with what she considers more pressing matters on the home front; it's up to Anduin to convince her that the Alliance needs her troops at the ready where he needs them, and if he can't, he can't. The Horde has no such safeguards short of outright refusing to follow the Warchief's commands (which in the Horde power structure constitutes treason) or outright rebellion. At least, if it does have such a safeguard, we haven't seen it used.

[mickybrighteyes]

The other thing worth noting is that the Alliance has safeguards in place. Anduin can't order Tyrande to commit her troops to Dazar'Alor like Sylvanas can command Gallywix to send goblins to infiltrate Boralus, as an example. Tyrande can, at any time (and has in 8.1) withdraw her troops to deal with what she considers more pressing matters on the home front; it's up to Anduin to convince her that the Alliance needs her troops at the ready where he needs them, and if he can't, he can't. The Horde has no such safeguards short of outright refusing to follow the Warchief's commands (which in the Horde power structure constitutes treason) or outright rebellion. At least, if it does have such a safeguard, we haven't seen it used.

As of the story thus far I don't believe Anduin has at all used the authority of his position in any capacity. He persuades and counsels his forces rather than lead and when they don't do as he says he just... laments it more than anything. Tyrande and Genn going off to Darkshore felt more like Anduin talking about how important other battles were instead of commanding his troops. I would still argue that these safeguards you refer to on the alliance can still be subverted in a manner like what was seen during the third war to force a specific goal

[Thage]

As of the story thus far I don't believe Anduin has at all used the authority of his position in any capacity. He persuades and counsels his forces rather than lead and when they don't do as he says he just... laments it more than anything. Tyrande and Genn going off to Darkshore felt more like Anduin talking about how important other battles were instead of commanding his troops. I would still argue that these safeguards you refer to on the alliance can still be subverted in a manner like what was seen during the third war to force a specific goal

Maybe. Right now our only frame of reference is Varian (who busted his hump to earn the respect of each Alliance leader individually, in varying quality storytelling), whom the Alliance put their troops behind because he proved himself, and Anduin, who prefers to negotiate and bring the Alliance leaders around to his way of thinking but for that reason, won't put his foot down.

You're right in that we don't know how much actual authority the High King holds and how much of it is derived from the other leaders willingly following the High King, but so far we've seen that if someone in the Alliance doesn't want to commit troops, they can't be forced to, unlike in the Horde.

[Schattenlied]

one person can fuck everything even if they are not the leader, one person can subvert a council, He can corrupt and manipulate, its the same shit

No, it's not the same shit, because no one is forced to do what they say or be executed.

The system is good for the horde from the 5 warchiefs we had in the new horde, only one was bad, cause we all knew from the start that things wre going to shit, and the other was hit with the villain bat after a good work

Incorrect, Sylvanas has always been a baddie, if you didn't know that you weren't paying attention.

this was already done in MOP, they don't need to do that

No it wasn't, what happened in MoP was "well, shit, I sure hope that doesn't happen again, right guys?"

this entire mess should not happen exactly because mop already happened, to show that no matter if the leader have absolute power the races would not blindly follow it, but guess what, they are pretending mop didn't happen, and are making the horde do the exactly same mistaken but worse

They aren't pretending MoP didn't happen, they are driving home that this wasn't a one time thing and it can keep happening.

this is not the government fault anymore

Yes it is, because if they didn't have this system of government neither Garrosh going cray cray or Sylvanas going on her power trip would have happened.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem is both sides have this system. So calling it bad on one side and ignoring the other is just missing the point.

The problem is that according to the narrative it's only bad on one side because they keep using that side to illustrate how terrible it is.

The system is fine when a decent leader runs things and people aren't bucking against the system simply because they don't like the leader.On the other side the same interpretations can be drawn and punished accordingly but the story forgets that's a thing or just places all blame in very few people.

Neither faction is a republic or democracy, but only one side gets it's bad side aired out in every storyline.

It's not though, the High King only has ultimate authority on military strategy, and, from Chris Metzen's own words "If other leaders don't like his calls, they don't commit forces. They give him deference in overall strategic command."

It's very, very far from the same thing. The other leaders aren't sworn to obey the High King, they aren't even forced to give the High King control of their military, they can (and have, see: Tyrande and Genn) tell the High King to fuck off if they don't like his plan and go do their own thing.

It's about army focus, not control.

Anduin has the same Authority MORE authority than Garithos who basically locked people up for execution for FOLLOWING orders and completing assigned tasks.

Problem is Garithos didn't actually have the authority to make those calls, he was just completely cut off from Alliance High Command so no one could stop him, because they didn't know about it.

He persuades and counsels his forces rather than lead and when they don't do as he says he just... laments it more than anything.

Because that's all the position allows him to do, he doesn't have the authority to force the other leaders to follow his orders. The only thing the position allows him to do is direct the other race's military forces when the other leaders opt to give him command, and they can revoke that command whenever they so please.

- - - Updated - - -

You're right in that we don't know how much actual authority the High King holds and how much of it is derived from the other leaders willingly following the High King,

All of it, all of it is from other leaders willingly following.

[Syegfryed]

No, it's not the same shit, because no one is forced to do what they say or be executed.

with a good leader this is not a problem

Incorrect, Sylvanas has always been a baddie, if you didn't know that you weren't paying attention.

its exactly what i say

No it wasn't, what happened in MoP was "well, shit, I sure hope that doesn't happen again, right guys?"

MOP was the expansion to show that the horde should not blindly follow a leader, just because he is leader.

They aren't pretending MoP didn't happen, they are driving home that this wasn't a one time thing and it can keep happening.

they are pretending mop didn't happen committing the same mistake they should be already vaccinated against it.

Yes it is, because if they didn't have this system of government neither Garrosh going cray cray or Sylvanas going on her power trip would have happened.

it would have happened because it was the plot they chose, it would happen anyway.