Thrall will return as Warchief

[Schattenlied]

with a good leader this is not a problem

You won't always have a good leader, that is the moral of this story, the system is flawed.

its exactly what i say

What?

MOP was the expansion to show that the horde should not blindly follow a leader, just because he is leader.

And yet you claim that a system of government that requires blindly following your leader or be executed if you disobey is a good thing.

The Horde didn't fix the problem last time, they need to fix it this time, and the only way to fix it is to have a council, cease allowing one person to have ultimate power.

they are pretending mop didn't happen committing the same mistake they should be already vaccinated against it.

You can't "vaccinate" against accidentally picking a bad successor. The only prevention is a different system of government where one person doesn't hold all the cards.

it would have happened because it was the plot they chose, it would happen anyway.

Sure thing buddy.
Butterfly effect, you change one thing in the story and it changes everything else. If they didn't still have a warchief the entire story would be different.

[Syegfryed]

You won't always have a good leader, that is the moral of this story, the system is flawed.

that we already learned, and its already done, we don't need to recap this again

What?

from 5 warchiefs only one was a problem, because it was bad from start, and we knew shit was gonna happen = sylvanas

And yet you claim that a system of government that requires blindly following your leader or be executed if you disobey is a good thing.

for the horde yes, the problem is, they still can have a warchief with all powers, but still not blindly follow him.

The Horde didn't fix the problem last time, they need to fix it this time, and the only way to fix it is to have a council, cease allowing one person to have ultimate power.

it fixed, the witters broke again, a council will make the horde an alliance

You can't "vaccinate" against accidentally picking a bad successor. The only prevention is a different system of government where one person doesn't hold all the cards.

you can, "oh this leader is doing shit? no, we don't agree with that you must be removed"

we don't need to remove the entire government, but changes are possible

Sure thing buddy.
Butterfly effect, you change one thing in the story and it changes everything else. If they didn't still have a warchief the entire story would be different.

this is not work with blizzard writing, the plot is already done, regardless, they will Just adapt and force everything to follow

thats why most of the leaders and people were being retarded and following sylvanas from the start without a word

[Wangming]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Nazgrim for warchief. Orc. Knows war. Can lead. Understands undeath. Well known figure. Badass.

He is perfect for the role.

[Eggroll]

It doesn't matter if Thrall actually cheated, it only matters that Thrall FEELS like he cheated. And he probably should, because when Garrosh confronted him with forcing all the responsibility of the Horde on his shoulders, Thrall just washes his hands of his duty to the Horde and claims everything Garrosh did is his fault and his fault only. He doesn't accept ANY responsibility for his actions. Which is what his entire tenute as Warchief was about, never being responsible for anything the Horde did.

Idk man, if Garrosh hadn't been dumb as f*ck, he would have gotten himself smart advisors like Saurfang, Nazgrim etc. instead of being a fucking dickhead when he realizes he lacks in some departments.

Stupid dickhead does what stupid dickheads do. Or Blizzard story writers tell them to

- - - Updated - - -

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Nazgrim for warchief. Orc. Knows war. Can lead. Understands undeath. Well known figure. Badass.

He is perfect for the role.

Didn't we kill Nazgrim in SoO?

[Directionalk9]

this thread did age well

btw, i still think the alliance will kill thrall somehow, by accident or intentional, this will blow up, kill thrall? the one who advocate for peace? the world shaman? the legend? the one who save and create the new horde? lt would make the horde want revenge forever, and the war will not end because the alliance also want revenge for teldrassil,


we will not have peace for decades to come, and they at least can stop the bullcrap villain leader train, to do the plot device, cause it would not be needed anymore.

I want this...

[Techno-Druid]

The issue isn't really Garrosh. It's Thrall. He simply doesn't take responsibility for his actions as a Warchief and for the actions of the Horde under his rule. Never did.

Thrall's entire arc in Legion is literally just him sulking over how he appointed Garrosh as Warchief and the consequences of that. He literally became so depressed he stopped hearing the elements.

[The Stormbringer]

Idk man, if Garrosh hadn't been dumb as f*ck, he would have gotten himself smart advisors like Saurfang, Nazgrim etc. instead of being a fucking dickhead when he realizes he lacks in some departments.

Stupid dickhead does what stupid dickheads do. Or Blizzard story writers tell them to

- - - Updated - - -

Didn't we kill Nazgrim in SoO?

Nazgrim got brought back as a Death Knight during the DK Class campaign.

- - - Updated - - -

The issue isn't really Garrosh. It's Thrall. He simply doesn't take responsibility for his actions as a Warchief and for the actions of the Horde under his rule. Never did.

What do you want him to do, flagellate himself in front of Orgrimmar, Stormwind, and in Pandaria? Beg for forgiveness on all fours like a dog? Demand he be executed for the crime of making a bad decision?

[Fred Skinner]

What if Sylvanas killed Thrall accidently?

That would be the end of Sylvanas as warchief, and the people would hate her.

[Fred Skinner]

Why would they?

Honestly if I was an orc I'd hate Thrall. He abandoned them and then when the Legion came and the entire world was under pressure, he abandoned them yet again.

Thats a good point.

But i think Sylvanas will do something which will turn away their people from her. No idea what.

[Wangming]

Didn't we kill Nazgrim in SoO?

Yes, but now he is a horseman of the apocalypse. Which is why I said he understands undeath.

[Schattenlied]

that we already learned, and its already done, we don't need to recap this again

Clearly it wasn't learned, because they kept using the same system of government with no changes what so ever.

That isn't what people do when they learn something.

from 5 warchiefs only one was a problem, because it was bad from start, and we knew shit was gonna happen = sylvanas

Two, not one, Garrosh was bad from the start too. Literally from day one he was sending his soldiers on suicide missions because he felt they were lesser than himself and no longer wanted them around.

for the horde yes, the problem is, they still can have a warchief with all powers, but still not blindly follow him.

No, they can't, because the very position of warchief requires that every single member of the Horde make a blood oath to do whatever the fuck the warchief says no matter what or be executed.

it fixed, the witters broke again, a council will make the horde an alliance

No, it wasn't fixed, if it was fixed there would not be a warchief. You don't fix the problem with the system of government by replacing a person, the problem did not come from the person, they just exploited it.

you can, "oh this leader is doing shit? no, we don't agree with that you must be removed"

And the only way to do that is full scale rebellion at risk of execution, where in a better system those who disagree would just say no and that would be the end of it.

we don't need to remove the entire government, but changes are possible

Yes, changes, changes that involve eliminating the position of warchief and having all racial leaders make decisions together.

this is not work with blizzard writing, the plot is already done, regardless, they will Just adapt and force everything to follow

This is entirely incorrect.

thats why most of the leaders and people were being retarded and following sylvanas from the start without a word

No, the reason for that is if they didn't she could brand them traitors and execute them without consequence.

One person can't speak up alone or they will be killed. Talking to others in secret to coordinate everyone turning on the warchief together is a massive risk because the people they talk to may turn them over to the warchief, who will have them killed, or they may be overheard by someone entirely unrelated, or a spy, who will turn them over to the warchief, who will have them killed.

[Syegfryed]

Clearly it wasn't learned, because they kept using the same system of government with no changes what so ever.

That isn't what people do when they learn something.

they didn't learn because blizzard din't want it, they want to recap that, SoO events would change the view of the people adn the races towards the elader more

realistic, sylvanas would never be warchief, and she would never start the war, just don't make any sense with the past.

Two, not one, Garrosh was bad from the start too. Literally from day one he was sending his soldiers on suicide missions because he felt they were lesser than himself and no longer wanted them around.

Garrosh was fine since the cataclysm until middle mop

No, they can't, because the very position of warchief requires that every single member of the Horde make a blood oath to do whatever the fuck the warchief says no matter what or be executed.

and the horde was just about orcs, and its not like this anymore, why the warchief position cannot evolve too?

it already done in the past, warchief was just the dude to go to war, with orgrin/thrall it gain all the powers, now he can lose some again.

No, it wasn't fixed, if it was fixed there would not be a warchief. You don't fix the problem with the system of government by replacing a person, the problem did not come from the person, they just exploited it.

i said again, you can find flaws in any system of government, its not the system but the writers, there is no other way to explain

Yes, changes, changes that involve eliminating the position of warchief and having all racial leaders make decisions together.

just like a happy alliance

This is entirely incorrect.

the delusion you want to believe is your problem indeed.

No, the reason for that is if they didn't she could brand them traitors and execute them without consequence.

they did with Garrosh and nothing happened, they were against him since day one

Garroshw ant to finish the war, but the races were bitching out, Eitrigg didn't want and give him many councils

to come BfA and everyone be like "yep lets go" even after teldrassil, thats retardation

[quoteç
One person can't speak up alone or they will be killed. Talking to others in secret to coordinate everyone turning on the warchief together is a massive risk because the people they talk to may turn them over to the warchief, who will have them killed, or they may be overheard by someone entirely unrelated, or a spy, who will turn them over to the warchief, who will have them killed.[/QUOTE]

people could speak up all the time, Garrosh only had vol'jin to be killed because he fucked up

[mickybrighteyes]

Problem is Garithos didn't actually have the authority to make those calls, he was just completely cut off from Alliance High Command so no one could stop him, because they didn't know about it.

the bold tends to mean the individual had authority. Maybe you want to quibble about the legitimacy of his authority in the grand scheme of things, but for the purposes of his story arc he had explicit and implicit authority to run the areas his forces still controlled in the manner he chose.

[Schattenlied]

Garrosh was fine since the cataclysm until middle mop

Tell that to the forsaken he sent on a suicide mission into GIlneas in Cata simply because he wanted them all dead.

it already done in the past, warchief was just the dude to go to war, with orgrin/thrall it gain all the powers, now he can lose some again.

That's not true at all...

i said again, you can find flaws in any system of government, its not the system but the writers, there is no other way to explain

Just because every system of government has flaws doesn't mean that some aren't worse than others... This is one of those cases, it's far far worse than others.

just like a happy alliance

Just like a happy conglomerate of nations that won't implode because of one person going on a power trip.

And no, the Alliance doesn't rule by council.

the delusion you want to believe is your problem indeed.

Whatever you need to tell yourself to avoid acknowledging that the only reason any of this was possible is because of the position of Warchief.

people could speak up all the time, Garrosh only had vol'jin to be killed because he fucked up

People voiced concerns, but they never openly disobeyed orders, or told him "no, I'm not doing that" to his face, that would have gotten them killed... The one time someone (Baine) started trying to do that he realized that he was about to overstep and be killed and backed down.

[Alteiry]

Tell me I’m wrong.

You're not.

[Schattenlied]

the bold tends to mean the individual had authority. Maybe you want to quibble about the legitimacy of his authority in the grand scheme of things, but for the purposes of his story arc he had explicit and implicit authority to run the areas his forces still controlled in the manner he chose.

It really doesn't. What you've just said would be the equivalent of saying that a law enforcement officer has the authority to shoot to kill any random criminal they see whenever they are out of radio contact with their superiors.

It's absurd... Just because someone can't get into contact with the people who have the authority to make big decisions doesn't grant that person the authority to make those decisions in their stead, especially if said decision is not only illegal but could cause an international incident and potentially start a war.

[mickybrighteyes]

It really doesn't. What you've just said would be the equivalent of saying that a law enforcement officer has the authority to shoot to kill any random criminal they see whenever they are out of radio contact with their superiors.

It's absurd... Just because someone can't get into contact with the people who have the authority to make big decisions doesn't grant that person the authority to make those decisions in their stead, especially if said decision is not only illegal but could cause an international incident and potentially start a war.

Authority:

the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience

OR

a person or organization having power or control in a particular, typically political or administrative, sphere.


Until some force acting in opposition restricts them, one can be argued as having authority.

The chain of command you want to say he was disconnected from was largely dead or gone. He was the Grandmarshall of Lordaeron's Army and Lordaeron's king and crown prince were dead and the bulk of what WAS lordaeron was scourged or scattered. Garithos was holding the main forces acting on behalf of Lordaeron IN lordaeron... you want to say he lacked authority? He was the highest authority in Lordaeron beholden to no one.

[Syegfryed]

Tell that to the forsaken he sent on a suicide mission into GIlneas in Cata simply because he wanted them all dead.

He send then because as undead they would endure far more than the living, as said in the book, his intend was not to wipe then out

That's not true at all...

Blackhand was elected to command the orcs to war, just that, he was the militar leader of the orchish horde, he didn't had politics/economic powers like thrall had in war3 and beyond, who duties were not just war

Just because every system of government has flaws doesn't mean that some aren't worse than others... This is one of those cases, it's far far worse than others.

If every system has flaws then we could just stay with our iconc system and make it better instead of fuck up even more with horde characterization because one system looks better

The horde are monsters with different views than ours, the warchief system is fine if they just did it right, council bullshit is for the alliance.

Just like a happy conglomerate of nations that won't implode because of one person going on a power trip.

thus, alliance

And no, the Alliance doesn't rule by council.

they did until they "elected" a high king, and yet they still act as a council for the most part

Whatever you need to tell yourself to avoid acknowledging that the only reason any of this was possible is because of the position of Warchief.

sure cause if blizzard want make the horde evil they could because we had a council, sure its clever.

People voiced concerns, but they never openly disobeyed orders, or told him "no, I'm not doing that" to his face, that would have gotten them killed... The one time someone (Baine) started trying to do that he realized that he was about to overstep and be killed and backed down.

they did things "im not doing that" a few times, and they didn't get killed, if so, Vol'jin would die when he said it was going to kill Garrosh and sylvanas whe she use the blight on Guilneas.

[Schattenlied]

Authority:

the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience

OR

a person or organization having power or control in a particular, typically political or administrative, sphere.


Until some force acting in opposition restricts them, one can be argued as having authority.

The chain of command you want to say he was disconnected from was largely dead or gone. He was the Grandmarshall of Lordaeron's Army and Lordaeron's king and crown prince were dead and the bulk of what WAS lordaeron was scourged or scattered. Garithos was holding the main forces acting on behalf of Lordaeron IN lordaeron... you want to say he lacked authority? He was the highest authority in Lordaeron beholden to no one.

The Alliance still existed south of Lordaeron, he is still beholden to it. Under no circumstances did he have the authority to execute a member of the royal family of an Alliance nation, who was fighting alongside him willingly and technically didn't have to follow his orders at all.

[Th3Scourge]

i don't think we will have a warchief anymore. I think we will end up with a council of Leaders. A warchief doesn't really fit the modern Horde