Why would 8.2 be any different?

[Jester Joe]

"The mass" is not "the judge". It's not impossible to have 99 person wrong about something and 1 person right about it. Majority doesn't create truth.

Hence, arrogance.

Shockingly enough, when it comes to entertainment the mass kinda IS the judge.

It's silly to think one person is better at "judging" than another is.

[Freshouttajail]

Hence, arrogance.

Shockingly enough, when it comes to entertainment the mass kinda IS the judge.

It's silly to think one person is better at "judging" than another is.

It's not silly at all. People don't think the same way, don't understand things the same way, don't observe and analyse things the same way. Not everyone can become a judge in the court of law just like in normal everyday life not everyone can judge things equally.

What's silly is believing everyone use their brain the same way.

[Garymorilix]

I explained my points, neutrally, I described what is wrong in the game. What do you need to see to be convinced that the class design in the game is factually bad? What kind of proof do you want to see to be satisfied and accept this as a fact instead of an opinion?

I don't need to be convinced of anything, I play the game myself and decide (and I'm sure you don't even play the game). You don't have power over me.
And I like BfA systems. What makes my opinion less relevant than yours?

You did not describe what's "wrong in the game", you described what's "wrong in the game in your opinion". Huge difference.
And by the way, you didn't describe anything, you said some vague stuff about how "people" (I don't know why you think you represent any number of people) feel about stuff in the game, then made a Diablo 2 comparison after saying "Different criterias for each product".

You say one thing is bad, someone else says that thing is good. What makes you think that your opinion is the factually correct one in any scenario?

This is beyond god complex now. You literally think your word is proof. You can't handle a discussion, you want yes-men around you. What do you think you'll achieve with this attitude? Everyone on the planet will quit WoW just cuz you said it was bad? Be real, boy.

[Redroniksre]

It's not silly at all. People don't think the same way, don't understand things the same way, don't observe and analyse things the same way. Not everyone can become a judge in the court of law just like in normal everyday life not everyone can judge things equally.

What's silly is believing everyone use their brain the same way.

Unfortunately the things you stated are all subjective. With video games the only objective measure of a bad game is the performance and stability. A game that crashes constantly, doesn't even load, or runs incredibly terribly can be considered "objectively bad". Outside of that it is completely personal opinion. It is fine that you consider vanilla to be the epitome of gaming, but it is only your opinion, not factual at all. Unless you can define for me the only measure of a game, which is fun. Of course i am sure your idea of fun is far superior to others.

[Jester Joe]

It's not silly at all. People don't think the same way, don't understand things the same way, don't observe and analyse things the same way. Not everyone can become a judge in the court of law just like in normal everyday life not everyone can judge things equally.

What's silly is believing everyone use their brain the same way.

There's a difference between learning legality and the ins and outs of the law, and going "hey this is fun".

[rrayy]

I never said people should have my opinion. I did not voice my opinion. I detach myself from biased perspective and see the game for what it is. A bad game. I played a lot of BfA and enjoyed it, doesn't mean it's good.
Opinions and facts don't have to be one and the same, I enjoyed BfA, it's still shit, I listen to a lot of bad music, I enjoy it, doesn't make it good just because I enjoy it.

My opinion doesn't change the state of the game. Opinions are only perspective and it's possible to detach yourself from that bias to see things for what they truly are. It does take some practice but it's not impossible.

Yes, you did voice your opinion. Everythign you said is your opinion, not fact. you are not the sole arbiter of good and bad, therefore you are not spouting any facts. None of your BS reasoning changes that either.

[Freshouttajail]

Unfortunately the things you stated are all subjective. With video games the only objective measure of a bad game is the performance and stability. A game that crashes constantly, doesn't even load, or runs incredibly terribly can be considered "objectively bad". Outside of that it is completely personal opinion. It is fine that you consider vanilla to be the epitome of gaming, but it is only your opinion, not factual at all. Unless you can define for me the only measure of a game, which is fun. Of course i am sure your idea of fun is far superior to others.

What if you run into someone who enjoys crashes? They have an opinion different to your "fact". Does that mean your fact is not a fact anymore? No, it means they have bad taste. Apply this thought process to things that are not so "radical" and you can perfectly understand where I'm coming from, it's just more subtle, but not wrong in any way.

[Thetruth1400]

Honestly, I agree. The reality is, the majority of the changes that need to happen are in the classes themselves, not the gear, and therefore won't be addressed until 9.0 in the earliest (probably not even then frankly). That being said, even the gear is still there in 8.2, so it's really no different. You still have to farm your neck up to 50 to "have everything unlocked on day 1" and then you have to farm up an additional 15 neck levels to unlock the traits.

Those traits, as OP mentioned, will also never be balanced, mostly because they're too generic. Additionally, while they are targetable, some of them are locked behind content that people just might not have a desire to do. What if the, hands down, BiS DPS raid effect is locked behind getting a high rating in PvP arena? Now that person, who may have never fought another player in their entire gaming experience is forced to not only do arenas, but somehow become competent and the best at it. Sure, that's a design flaw, but again, it points at just how hard of a system this will be to balance, again, especially on every single class and spec. 24 DPS specs in the game, good luck with that Blizz.

[Freshouttajail]

Yes, you did voice your opinion. Everythign you said is your opinion, not fact. you are not the sole arbiter of good and bad, therefore you are not spouting any facts. None of your BS reasoning changes that either.

Prove to me that what I said is my opinion. You can't read my mind, you don't know what my opinion is.

Mushrooms are good.
Is this my opinion?
You don't know, it's hard to tell, lots of people like mushrooms, some people don't tho, what side am I on? How can you tell? Am I saying this to prove a point or is it a trap?

You claim to know my that what I said it an opinion because you're too narrowminded to believe there's people out there able to detach their preferences from their neutral view, mostly because you probably never tried it yourself or wrongly believe it's impossible to do. Guess what, that's not the only thing you'll see in your life that you first thought was impossible but turns out it's not. You're free to disagree, doesn't change the fact.

BTW, making the claim that what I said is my opinion means you have proof to show that what I said is my opinion, so provide the evidence, otherwise you're just voicing your most likely wrong opinion about what I said which makes you even worse than what you're accusing me of doing because it's hypocritical.

- - - Updated - - -

There's a difference between learning legality and the ins and outs of the law, and going "hey this is fun".

Still requires good judgement. Ever heard of the phrase "poor judgement", you think people just say that for giggles and it comes from nowhere? There's people with poor judgement out there, not everyone has equal judgement.

[Segus1992]

Seriously, you are literally this guy. Don't be this guy, no one likes him.

You've come to the wrong place if you expect people not to be him. This forum is literally filled to the brim with people nobody likes.

[Garymorilix]

Prove to me that what I said is my opinion. You can't read my mind, you don't know what my opinion is.

Mushrooms are good.
Is this my opinion?
You don't know, it's hard to tell, lots of people like mushrooms, some people don't tho, what side am I on? How can you tell? Am I saying this to prove a point or is it a trap?

You claim to know my that what I said it an opinion because you're too narrowminded to believe there's people out there able to detach their preferences from their neutral view, mostly because you probably never tried it yourself or wrongly believe it's impossible to do. Guess what, that's not the only thing you'll see in your life that you first thought was impossible but turns out it's not. You're free to disagree, doesn't change the fact.

BTW, making the claim that what I said is my opinion means you have proof to show that what I said is my opinion, so provide the evidence, otherwise you're just voicing your most likely wrong opinion about what I said which makes you even worse than what you're accusing me of doing because it's hypocritical.

- - - Updated - - -



Still requires good judgement. Ever heard of the phrase "poor judgement", you think people just say that for giggles and it comes from nowhere? There's people with poor judgement out there, not everyone has equal judgement.

You forgot to reply to me. Wonder why, must be hard to answer my questions.

What makes your "fact" actually a fact over some other person's "fact"?
Prove us your position of authority or some kind of agreement that you represent X percentage of the playerbase with your opinions so we can accept that your position in the matter is superior. Y'know, like doctors vs construction workers regarding medicine.

Until you can do any of that, stop acting god. You're too full of yourself. I know, you can transcend the natural barriers of the human mind, but please practice your cosmic judgment elsewhere.

[Freshouttajail]

You forgot to reply to me. Wonder why, must be hard to answer my questions.

What makes your "fact" actually a fact over some other person's "fact"?
Prove us your position of authority or some kind of agreement that you represent X percentage of the playerbase with your opinions so we can accept that your position in the matter is superior. Y'know, like doctors vs construction workers regarding medicine.

Until you can do any of that, stop acting god. You're too full of yourself. I know, you can transcend the natural barriers of the human mind, but please practice your cosmic judgment elsewhere.

People keep crying about position of authority whenever I get to that so I avoided it in this entire thread. And to be fair, it doesn't mean much. I'm a game developper but what I'm speaking up against are the things other game developpers made in WoW. So it would be like saying "yo I'm a game dev so what I say is true, btw what these game devs did was shit so game devs are not always right" and it's a cycle of neverending stupidity. I'm not right because I'm a game dev, I'm right because I literally spent years trying different things, forcing myself to try stuff that are outside my own preferences.

The whole experience was first to figure out why people enjoy different things that I thought were crap.
So first I watched a bunch of TV series, movies, listened to music,, played games, read books etc.(we're talking about several years spent forcing myself into stuff I would have otherwise never came close to because of my opinions) mostly popular stuff and really take the time to figure out what am I missing that other people see and get attracted to. Most of these things I had to go through several times over because the point is not to "think like someone else" and just enjoy them, that would be self-brainwashing. I have to watch them while having my natural opinion, while also putting myself in someone else's shoes to understand what hooks them and also while forgetting both of these bias and observe these things at their most primal barebone, technical aspect. This of course requires a minimum knowledge in these fields. I studied and worked in different jobs of the entertainment industry, I know enough to do this with most entertainment product except music, I don't play any instrument so I noticed I couldn't do it as well as with the other things such as games and movies.

This opened my eyes to a whole new layer of the world. I didn't become a fan of Gossip Girl, but I understand why it was such a success, I hate most dating reality show, I know why people get hooked to them but I also know why they are shit. I talked to reality show producers, they are not fan of their product, they don't do that out of passion, they know it's shitty TV but they also understand how to hook people to make money, in their words "most people don't know what's good they just follow their feelings because they're ignorant". A product DOES NOT NEED TO BE GOOD TO BE A SUCCESS. Some thing just hook people without being good because it does the right things to push their buttons. Sometimes the flaws are hidden by something else, the easiest example of that would be really flashy movie trailers that make people want to see the movie, but after the first week you hear the movie is pretty bad, too late, it already made its money and is considered a success even if it's bad.

This whole experiment could be taken to the next level, have things ranked by quality and make a chart that shows specifically and objectively what's good, what's bad, there's already a lot of cinematic and story telling techniques that are proven to be good or bad, this can be taken further. The problem is that we gain nothing from it, because like the reality show producer said, people don't know, they also don't care, they will follow what they enjoy they won't spend the time to learn what's good or bad, their taste will evolve a little but mostly stay around the same stuff. There's also nothing to gain from this financially, even if you make something that is factually superior it can still flop because of several outside factors. A lot of the most successful entertainment product became successful out of nowhere. On a personnal level there is also not much to gain, I didn't become fan of things I hated before, I still float around my own preferences like before, I just have better understanding of different things but my opinions are the same, I enjoy the same stuff.

People are allowed to enjoy anything they want, I'm not acting god. But making the claim that what I say it not a fact just because your opinion is different or because you believe people are unable to have a neutral view on things is pretty limited. Do the exercise, spend the time I spent working on that mental skill and we can have this discussion again.

[Garymorilix]

People keep crying about position of authority whenever I get to that so I avoided it in this entire thread. And to be fair, it doesn't mean much. I'm a game developper but what I'm speaking up against are the things other game developpers made in WoW. So it would be like saying "yo I'm a game dev so what I say is true, btw what these game devs did was shit so game devs are not always right" and it's a cycle of neverending stupidity. I'm not right because I'm a game dev, I'm right because I literally spent years trying different things, forcing myself to try stuff that are outside my own preferences.

The whole experience was first to figure out why people enjoy different things that I thought were crap.
So first I watched a bunch of TV series, movies, listened to music,, played games, read books etc.(we're talking about several years spent forcing myself into stuff I would have otherwise never came close to because of my opinions) mostly popular stuff and really take the time to figure out what am I missing that other people see and get attracted to. Most of these things I had to go through several times over because the point is not to "think like someone else" and just enjoy them, that would be self-brainwashing. I have to watch them while having my natural opinion, while also putting myself in someone else's shoes to understand what hooks them and also while forgetting both of these bias and observe these things at their most primal barebone, technical aspect. This of course requires a minimum knowledge in these fields. I studied and worked in different jobs of the entertainment industry, I know enough to do this with most entertainment product except music, I don't play any instrument so I noticed I couldn't do it as well as with the other things such as games and movies.

This opened my eyes to a whole new layer of the world. I didn't become a fan of Gossip Girl, but I understand why it was such a success, I hate most dating reality show, I know why people get hooked to them but I also know why they are shit. I talked to reality show producers, they are not fan of their product, they don't do that out of passion, they know it's shitty TV but they also understand how to hook people to make money, in their words "most people don't know what's good they just follow their feelings because they're ignorant". A product DOES NOT NEED TO BE GOOD TO BE A SUCCESS. Some thing just hook people without being good because it does the right things to push their buttons. Sometimes the flaws are hidden by something else, the easiest example of that would be really flashy movie trailers that make people want to see the movie, but after the first week you hear the movie is pretty bad, too late, it already made its money and is considered a success even if it's bad.

This whole experiment could be taken to the next level, have things ranked by quality and make a chart that shows specifically and objectively what's good, what's bad, there's already a lot of cinematic and story telling techniques that are proven to be good or bad, this can be taken further. The problem is that we gain nothing from it, because like the reality show producer said, people don't know, they also don't care, they will follow what they enjoy they won't spend the time to learn what's good or bad, their taste will evolve a little but mostly stay around the same stuff. There's also nothing to gain from this financially, even if you make something that is factually superior it can still flop because of several outside factors. A lot of the most successful entertainment product became successful out of nowhere. On a personnal level there is also not much to gain, I didn't become fan of things I hated before, I still float around my own preferences like before, I just have better understanding of different things but my opinions are the same, I enjoy the same stuff.

People are allowed to enjoy anything they want, I'm not acting god. But making the claim that what I say it not a fact just because your opinion is different or because you believe people are unable to have a neutral view on things is pretty limited. Do the exercise, spend the time I spent working on that mental skill and we can have this discussion again.

This is a very long way of saying "I have no authority".

I don't care about your personal life, or what mental crusade you went on to prove that reality shows are shitty and are only there to make money. You did not address what position you hold to be able to tell anyone that WoW is objectively bad.

You yourself said "Different criterias for each product", so don't expect me to care what you learned about music or tv shows or even other games (even if they are the same genre).

Then you went on about how "whatever I say is law" and when you are asked who you think you are and what kind of authority you possess to even think that you can talk in this manner, you suddenly go "And to be fair, it doesn't mean much".

Nobody gives 2 cents about your life story. You literally went out of your way to confirm that people like different things. Wow, such a revelation. Thank you for sharing this information.
You literally contradict yourself every other post. First it was truth, then prove me wrong, then dont compare, then you compare, then you pretend to have authority, then it doesn't mean much anymore. Whatever fits your narrative, boy.
For being such a DaVinci, such a jack of all trades, you are truly the master of none.

Maybe you shouldn't do stuff you don't like just to tell people that like that stuff that the stuff is shit.

And by the way, you still provided no acceptable proof or evidence of anything, this is all talk from my perspective.

[Freshouttajail]

This is a very long way of saying "I have no authority".

I don't care about your personal life, or what mental crusade you went on to prove that reality shows are shitty and are only there to make money. You did not address what position you hold to be able to tell anyone that WoW is objectively bad.

You yourself said "Different criterias for each product", so don't expect me to care what you learned about music or tv shows or even other games (even if they are the same genre).

Then you went on about how "whatever I say is law" and when you are asked who you think you are and what kind of authority you possess to even think that you can talk in this manner, you suddenly go "And to be fair, it doesn't mean much".

Nobody gives 2 cents about your life story. You literally went out of your way to confirm that people like different things. Wow, such a revelation. Thank you for sharing this information.
You literally contradict yourself every other post. First it was truth, then prove me wrong, then dont compare, then you compare, then you pretend to have authority, then it doesn't mean much anymore. Whatever fits your narrative, boy.
For being such a DaVinci, such a jack of all trades, you are truly the master of none.

Maybe you shouldn't do stuff you don't like just to tell people that like that stuff that the stuff is shit.

And by the way, you still provided no acceptable proof or evidence of anything, this is all talk from my perspective.

I never expected you to care, you opened your argumentation by saying saying you are close minded and refuse to accept the possibility that what I was saying could be a fact.
I knew very well you would disregard everything I said, we are on mmo-c after all.

I didn't just say people like different things, what I mostly proved was that beyond each sides of opinion lies a neutral state for all things.

I didn't do this to do what you claim I do, I also learned a lot about my own opinion and how some of the things are enjoy are terrible. It doesn't make them less enjoyable.

I never claimed to be a DaVinci and even less being a jack of all trade, I even clearly stated things I'm not good at and I could go on with more.

All in all, you reacted exactly how I thought you would, make incorrect assessments, misunderstand most of it because it's too complicated for you (which is also a fact, the evidence is right in front of you, there's my post saying things and then your reply saying things that make no sense and I have to correct you on everything, you factually did not understand what I said).

At the end of the day I have nothing to gain from this conversation.

[Garymorilix]

I never expected you to care, you opened your argumentation by saying saying you are close minded and refuse to accept the possibility that what I was saying could be a fact.
I knew very well you would disregard everything I said, we are on mmo-c after all.

I didn't just say people like different things, what I mostly proved was that beyond each sides of opinion lies a neutral state for all things.

I didn't do this to do what you claim I do, I also learned a lot about my own opinion and how some of the things are enjoy are terrible. It doesn't make them less enjoyable.

I never claimed to be a DaVinci and even less being a jack of all trade, I even clearly stated things I'm not good at and I could go on with more.

All in all, you reacted exactly how I thought you would, make incorrect assessments, misunderstand most of it because it's too complicated for you (which is also a fact, the evidence is right in front of you, there's my post saying things and then your reply saying things that make no sense and I have to correct you on everything, you factually did not understand what I said).

At the end of the day I have nothing to gain from this conversation.

Oh, you have much to gain from here.

Calling others hypocrites when you contradict yourself at every turn.
You have to correct me? Man, you are not the center of the universe. You did not correct me in anything. You just keep saying "I am smart, I am right, you are dumb, I am better".

I bet you ain't even human at this point, you can even see the future and predict stuff.

I'll say it again cuz it seems like you like to omit your own bs just to feel better:
You started with this: Different criterias for each product.
Then you immediately went to compare random stuff to WoW (and not even WoW).

Your whole argument is just a by-product of you thinking you hold any kind of power over the thoughts of millions of players and that you represent them in any discussion.
I don't care whether you like the game or not.
But I can't stand people like you acting all omni-potent, telling others that everything sucks and they're just blind to see it and that you can show everyone the true path. Go back to your lane, boy.

[Freshouttajail]

Oh, you have much to gain from here.

Calling others hypocrites when you contradict yourself at every turn.
You have to correct me? Man, you are not the center of the universe. You did not correct me in anything. You just keep saying "I am smart, I am right, you are dumb, I am better".

I bet you ain't even human at this point, you can even see the future and predict stuff.

I'll say it again cuz it seems like you like to omit your own bs just to feel better:
You started with this: Different criterias for each product.
Then you immediately went to compare random stuff to WoW (and not even WoW).

Your whole argument is just a by-product of you thinking you hold any kind of power over the thoughts of millions of players and that you represent them in any discussion.
I don't care whether you like the game or not.
But I can't stand people like you acting all omni-potent, telling others that everything sucks and they're just blind to see it and that you can show everyone the true path. Go back to your lane, boy.

"Different criteria to each product" was to specify the extremely idiotic claim made that "good" was one and the same for everything, it didn't mean "people have differnet criteria about the same product". That was clear and easy to understand, however YOU did not understand it, once again proving me right about the fact that you have a hard time following simple discussion.

I didn't contradict myself on any point, please feel free to prove me wrong on this by going back on what I said. Again this must be due to the fact that you barely understand anything I say.

BTW contradiction is not a hypocritical thing, I don't know why you put them together like it's linked to one another, you should look up what these words mean, or just try to prove me wrong on that as well.

Yes I have to correct you, stop acting like I don't have to, it only makes you look even more stupid.

Like I said before, the masses don't make the truth, but just to follow your train of thought about this claim you just said:

Your whole argument is just a by-product of you thinking you hold any kind of power over the thoughts of millions of players and that you represent them in any discussion.

There's more people quitting than playing when you compare when the game was good vs when the game was bad. So, again, this doesn't prove me wrong in any way shape or form and only make you look stupid.

I can teach blind people about what's good and bad, you can't do anything about it. Hell, I'll get suspended for saying the truth because you'll get offended once again but here it is: the only reason you don't see things the way I do is because you don't think as well as I do. You are factually bad at thinking and this discussion is evidence. There's not one thing you said that held any value or logic, you stand by typical social constructs and things you were told like "opinions are opinions", you can't think for yourself and even less think outside the box. You are mentally very limited and it frustrates you because it's true. I am in my lane, look up, way up.

[Redroniksre]

What if you run into someone who enjoys crashes? They have an opinion different to your "fact". Does that mean your fact is not a fact anymore? No, it means they have bad taste. Apply this thought process to things that are not so "radical" and you can perfectly understand where I'm coming from, it's just more subtle, but not wrong in any way.

No, nobody enjoys crashes and i would be interested in finding anybody that does. All the things you stated in your OP are subjective thoughts. Hell people much smarter than you have even said that OBJECTIVELY most people can not be incentivized to raid, no matter how "unique and myphic" you make it. Dude classic is coming out for you, there is your "Objectively" better game (Don't forget the objective crashes and shutdowns in the old days too)

[Alopex Major]

Yeah, it won't. No substantive changes will come until 9.0, and that's only if the team decides they don't like the direction -- which, from the interviews, doesn't seem likely. I logged in during the free weekend, and all my classes still felt like they were in slow motion, my rogue and hunter are still a dumpster fire, the story still blows, and void elves still exist. None of that is changing in 8.2

[Powerogue]

Literally the whole point of the patch is (finally) addressing the largest grievances with the expansion, so I don't know what you're going on about. It's only a matter of whether or not they pull it off.