It Will Be A Different Vanilla

[Mihalik]

What single boss ability could do that much damage? Druid tank had what 13k or 15k?

In any case a raid is going to have x2 Warrior tanks so why not the 3rd tank be a druid? Some encounters where last stand and shield wall are not needed a Druid could be of value!

Druid-offtanks were a thing. Specifically for soaking damage in certain cleave mechanics where the druid wouldn't be the primary target.

Again. Crushing Blow, it has a 150% damage multiplier. Even in the case that the hit wouldn't outright kill you, it would take a massive chunk out of your HP. HP=Mana, something that was in short supply and limited in Classic. Most heals couldn't instantly cap back 50% of your HP. It would take time, and mana to get back the HP.

So keeping you alive would OoM the healers even assuming they could heal you back up fast enough not to just get gibbed in a single ability cycle or 1 or 2 consecutive Crushing Blows.

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Note that i havent included any items accuired past BWL and ZG to reach Defense Cap.

But yes, i've played on [Private Server] and tanked Ragnaros and several other bosses in both MC and BWL(Razorgore, Broodlord, Drake Trio) during our progress through the content. We wasn't Dreamstate(a Guild on [Private Server]) levels of hardcore but we did have above average progress.
I didn't use any of these pure defense items either, because it wasn't needed. Sure, i wasn't defense capped but that didnt matter anyway. I had so much health and Armor that they were just slightly larger hits. Even though our warriors would stack consumables and other buffs to increase their stats. I still had more than them without the consumables.

But no, unfortunatly we couldn't do testing Twins on the [Private Server] PTR before the server was shut down. Don't think it would have mattered even if i were to tank Twins either. AQ is where Bear gear realy starts to get good.

And on the part of "or just get a fucking warrior?" Since Druids only share a Neck, a Cloak, two Rings and 1 Trinket with other tanks up in all of MC, BWL and ZQ. I'd say it would be stupid not to have a Druid alongside several Warriors. Even if you'd dont use the Druid to be the main tank, having one as an off-tank is just an asset rather than an obstacle.

I seriously doubt you played on a server that hadn't adjusted gear values and drop rates. The fucking drop rates in Classic were awful. It would and could take hundreds of dungeons runs to deck a a tank in tier 0.5 and there were hardcore raiders still running around in AQ gear and tier 0.5 pieces by the end of Naxx.

[Toppy]

Simply put, anyone who thinks that a lot of Vanilla was a "Skill" issue? Dont know shit about vanilla. Vanilla was HORRIBLY balanced, the worst balance the game has ever had. A ret paladin cant skill their way out of doing half the damage (or less) of an equally geared Rogue. A Druid tanks cant skill its way out of taking far more damage than a warrior because it simply doesnt have the same gear standards nor abilities to compete.

Note that i havent included any items accuired past BWL and ZG to reach Defense Cap.

But yes, i've played on [Private Server] and tanked Ragnaros and several other bosses in both MC and BWL(Razorgore, Broodlord, Drake Trio) during our progress through the content. We wasn't Dreamstate(a Guild on [Private Server]) levels of hardcore but we did have above average progress.
I didn't use any of these pure defense items either, because it wasn't needed. Sure, i wasn't defense capped but that didnt matter anyway. I had so much health and Armor that they were just slightly larger hits. Even though our warriors would stack consumables and other buffs to increase their stats. I still had more than them without the consumables.

But no, unfortunatly we couldn't do testing Twins on the [Private Server] PTR before the server was shut down. Don't think it would have mattered even if i were to tank Twins either. AQ is where Bear gear realy starts to get good.

And on the part of "or just get a fucking warrior?" Since Druids only share a Neck, a Cloak, two Rings and 1 Trinket with other tanks up in all of MC, BWL and ZQ. I'd say it would be stupid not to have a Druid alongside several Warriors. Even if you'd dont use the Druid to be the main tank, having one as an off-tank is just an asset rather than an obstacle.

I love when people cart out private servers as proof given I've yet to see any private server that didn't have some change or problem in their code that made it easier than actual vanilla. One that I dont think any server has got right is resistances, which has made doing damage and taking damage far easier on every single private server.

[Mihalik]

I love when people cart out private servers as proof given I've yet to see any private server that didn't have some change or problem in their code that made it easier than actual vanilla. One that I dont think any server has got right is resistances, which has made doing damage and taking damage far easier on every single private server.

Jesus. Even I forgot about that can of worms.

Like... It's nice that you defense caped your Druid in this super gimmicky gear set. Now get recked because you have no nature resist lol.

[Toppy]

Jesus. Even I forgot about that can of worms.

Like... It's nice that you defense caped your Druid in this super gimmicky gear set. Now get recked because you have no nature resist lol.

Exactly. Private servers never get resistance done well, and that was typically the biggest gear based barrier to entry for raids.

So of course the servers fly through the content. They have Paladins hitting for way more damage because holy damage is through the roof and the druid tank is working because it doesnt need fire resistance.

[Cempa]

it seems you TOTALLY missunderstood my answer lol replace my 5mins (i meant the time solely for running, and even this is sometimes too less) with your 20mins and i say exactly the same as you. i HAVE exactly the same oppinion like you so you must have totally missunderstood me. or i do not get it.

i play this game since may 2005 without any interruption ever (yes, i have that bronze orc statue from blizz) and i have raided a lot in vanilla. so i remember myself very well to the corpse runs through the dessert, down the fat chain, into MC until you finaaaaally reached i.e. majordomus.

some ppl here, that maybe started with MoP, will have a hard wakeup when they start jumping into classic

and no, i would not advise to play some special snowflake hybrid spec in classic you CAN play druid if you are ok to heal in 90% of all raid cases. you CAN play pally, if you are ok to sit a full raid evening to be called for 5mins. you CAN play shaman if you are ok to be a cleanse bot. but otherwise... i would play 1 of 5-7 specific specs

'Fallacy of Composition' .. The error of assuming what is true for you is also true for every one else.

Any raiding guild will take a druid tank to play as the third tank in the raid if she is committed to the game/guild. It was hard enough running a 40 man raiding guild and keeping it together .. No one in this post is suggesting a Druid will MT everything .. Or that a guild will run multiple druid tanks ..

What we are saying is that today -perhaps more than back in the day- you will find those off specs -especially that we know BiS for every tier.

[Hyral]

https://docs.google.com/document/u/2...CDZdxC7lEE/pub

Jesus Christ, at least put a trigger warning for that. I'm going to be sick.

[Charge me Doctor]

Also, too much parry could be bad as well. Will Classic have the old parry-haste issue that could gib a tank?

(I haven't done much raiding since Cata, it's true, but I can give you chapter and verse about parry-haste, and defense and crushing blows, and warrior shield block, etc.)

it worked the other way, your attacks being parried significantly reduced your attack cooldown. Having "too much parry" will only "hurt" a tank with faulty logic of landing extra attacks = extra rolls on parry for boss = more chances to get hit twice.

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I'm skeptical about this, simply because I've seen the WoW community over the past few years call someone doing a few % less than top garbage.

I agree somewhat with the mentality, that it's just better to bring someone who is playing the "correct" class is more likely to perform better, but not with calling the others "garbage."

I also agree with you in that I feel bad for people with this vision of playing a "hybrid" class as some amazing class, but are little more than buff bots or whatever and relegated to only support while the "pure" classes are the ones pulling most of the weight.

It's just modern "garbage" state got significantly reduced. Vanilla "garbage tank" would just randomly die during the encounter because of bad lack and how mechanics worked. "Garbage DPS" would be the difference between running OOM in a minute and only contributing auto-attacks for next minute against someone who can DPS whole 6 minutes of a fight

[Katchii]

It's just modern "garbage" state got significantly reduced. Vanilla "garbage tank" would just randomly die during the encounter because of bad lack and how mechanics worked. "Garbage DPS" would be the difference between running OOM in a minute and only contributing auto-attacks for next minute against someone who can DPS whole 6 minutes of a fight

Gotcha. If that's actually how it was, that sucks... I never played at that high of a level in Vanilla, I didn't even get a character level capped until TBC.

[Mihalik]

Exactly. Private servers never get resistance done well, and that was typically the biggest gear based barrier to entry for raids.

So of course the servers fly through the content. They have Paladins hitting for way more damage because holy damage is through the roof and the druid tank is working because it doesnt need fire resistance.

I still have PTSD from the frustration of having to farm Maraudon and Stratholme for tanking in AQ. Ugh. And I was a back-up tank. Ugh.

[Charge me Doctor]

You could argue the benefit factor of saccrificing stamina and armor for defense. But the fact that Druids arn't able to get defense cap is very wrong.

Sacrificing that much stamina would make all regular hits into crushes EHP speaking.

[Mihalik]

Gotcha. If that's actually how it was, that sucks... I never played at that high of a level in Vanilla, I didn't even get a character level capped until TBC.

There were a bunch of random stat check mechanics for tanks for different bosses. Have x of this for that on this boss, have x of that on that other boss. On top of that you had random instant gib mechanics if you didn't have x amount of defense stat. Warriors were the only ones who could reliably tank because they were the only ones who could stack various stats for various encounters and circumvent the defense stat check via Shield Block (which basically auto defense capped you).

[Charge me Doctor]

What single boss ability could do that much damage? Druid tank had what 13k or 15k?

razuvious

huehuehue

13-15k hp in naxx with about 16k armour fully buffed, including world buffs was about right, but you still can't get rid of crits and crushes. But don't get your hopes high, since you won't see those numbers on progression.

Also good luck snatching that Drake Fang Talisman from warriors in whatever-black-rock-dungeon

[GlitchedTV]

Exactly. Private servers never get resistance done well, and that was typically the biggest gear based barrier to entry for raids.

So of course the servers fly through the content. They have Paladins hitting for way more damage because holy damage is through the roof and the druid tank is working because it doesnt need fire resistance.

I can confirm this, we got bosses down to 0 armor on unnamed servers with them or anyone knowing if decrease armor spells should be stacking or not. I mean, there's this ViD of Naxx clear in a hour, we all know that shit is not going to happen on live.

[Charge me Doctor]

In he context of this thread... I do believe that people have higher skill cap than they did 15 years ago. This will result in all specs being played to a higher level of performance... allowing some marginal specs to perform better than before.

You do realize that skill cap in vanilla was quite low compared to modern wow? People used to click spells and keyboard turn (or use *gasp* click-to-move!) not because they were bad, but because they didn't even needed to be better to do content or be competitive in pvp, it was THAT much slower, and being faster gave you literally nothing

[Maudib]

You do realize that skill cap in vanilla was quite low compared to modern wow? People used to click spells and keyboard turn (or use *gasp* click-to-move!) not because they were bad, but because they didn't even needed to be better to do content or be competitive in pvp, it was THAT much slower, and being faster gave you literally nothing

While it's true Vanilla was "easier"... the rest of your post though... ridiculous.

Keyboard turners were out performed by those who used the mouse to turn/navigate. Hunters who could were twirling in mid-air to kite and do damage in PvP when running away.

People who could use keys to use their abilities never lost focus on their targets whereas clickers had to look down to their spell bar to click.

[BSwitch]

It is possible with players having a higher skill cap than back in the day... and with a greater understanding of the game... that specs once considered to be "useless" can be made into usable and fun specs.

This is absolutely my thinking. There will be really cheesy, skill-intensive ways of finding optimal gameplay (see Feral Druids and whatever that lowbie mace is), and I'm sure we'll find all kinds of new gearing/consumable/talent combinations that bring some pretty wild gameplay. It's going to be awesome!

[Charge me Doctor]

While it's true Vanilla was "easier"... the rest of your post though... ridiculous.

Keyboard turners were out performed by those who used the mouse to turn/navigate. Hunters who could were twirling in mid-air to kite and do damage in PvP when running away.

People who could use keys to use their abilities never lost focus on their targets whereas clickers had to look down to their spell bar to click.

I'm fairly sure, that a hunter mouse-clicking aimed shot over a target in freezing trap was oh-so much worse at pvp than someone who pressed a keybind to do the same. You could see that in numerous pvp-montages, when target is in a stunlock and rogue clicks adrenaline rush. Or when a warrior clicks cleave or recklessness while slowly moving in a straight line towards enemy.

People used to click spells, because twitch-movements weren't needed back then, game was slow paced back then and you, you know, never bothered to keybind something you would need to use situationally.

Now, returning back to PvE, what exact advantage would a healing priest would get from not keyboard turning in, say, MC? Or on Loatheb?

[Anastacy]

The reason you didn't see druid tanks in "major raiding guilds" is because of one fundamental flaw in "druid tanking": they cannot get "uncrushable" status. There is next to no leather equipment with +defense, and rings, trinkets and neck piece aren't enough to even get close to said status. Which means they get hit by critical strikes. A lot.

And their agility + talents are also not enough to give them a "decent enough" dodge rate to tank raid bosses consistently. And... lack of decent defensive cooldowns, though this last part I'm not so sure of.

Druids couldn't get unCRUSHable in TBC either.

Druids got UnCRITtable, in TBC at least, through a combination of +DEF items/gems and PvP Resilience.

And Druid tanks were far more common in TBC.

[anon5123]

This is absolutely my thinking. There will be really cheesy, skill-intensive ways of finding optimal gameplay (see Feral Druids and whatever that lowbie mace is), and I'm sure we'll find all kinds of new gearing/consumable/talent combinations that bring some pretty wild gameplay. It's going to be awesome!

Feral druids are the exception.

No amount of "greater understanding" can make Shadow Priest, Ret Paladin, Balance Druid, or Ele/Enh Shaman put out any kind of good DPS.

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Druids couldn't get unCRUSHable in TBC either.

Druids got UnCRITtable, in TBC at least, through a combination of +DEF items/gems and PvP Resilience.

And Druid tanks were far more common in TBC.

TBC =/= vanilla

Druids had so many more tanking talents in TBC and much better gear available. Plus some cooldowns, ability to use items in shapeshift form, etc...

Druid tanking in vanilla has more problems than just "can't get uncrushable".

[RobertMugabe]

It is possible with players having a higher skill cap than back in the day... and with a greater understanding of the game... that specs once considered to be "useless" can be made into usable and fun specs.

What's even more important: We're playing with 1.12 spells and talents (probably even with the updated items)

IIRC balance druids were totally useless in early vanilla, but with 1.12 they should be pretty good in some situations, especially in PVE. Heck they didn't even have moonkin form for most of vanilla.