Is peace between the Horde and the Alliance actually possible? (spoilers)

[Schattenlied]

they borned in this way directly from vrykul parents.

Yes, that's how things work.

and yes, forsaken are procreating, ressing the deads is litterally their way to create more of them, that you know, its the definition of procreating.

No, it's not, because they aren't creating more of their species, they are taking people of their species who are already alive and inflicting them with undeath.

then they arent "infecting", there isnt a cure or a way to return a living. they become different being, a new race fundamentally

Incorrect, just because there isn't a known cure doesn't mean that it's not an infection, there are plenty of infections in the real world that there is no known cure for, doesn't make them not infections.

Also the game itself calls the plague an infection, so, yeah.

aaaaaand? nobody know the fate of garithos and his troop.

You got any proof of that? Not that it really matters... Whether the Alliance knew about it or not the Forsaken still attacked first, and have no right to be upset over Alliance aggression when they attacked Alliance troops before the Alliance ever attacked them.

the only survivor defected in theramore

You have proof that there was only 1 survivor? Also, that doesn't mean he didn't tell anyone what happened.

rotfl, sure, an ufo kidnapped them.... the same aliens that compelled anduin to write this

Says they were refused, not killed... They could have not returned for any number of reasons... They could have been attacked on the road by bandits, gnolls, ogres, trolls, blackrock orcs, dark iron dwarves, fucking black dragons/dragonkin, etc, there's a lot of dangerous shit between Stormwind and Undercity.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand? nobody knows about that hypothetical order and still varian declared a war to the horde, after an attack anyway against the lich king (with yes, tons of friendly fire, but whaterver)

Like I said, the Alliance had no reason to take her word for it.

and infact i wrote "broke the truce", damn they armed and trained the fucking farmers way before the horde missions

Arming and training them to defend themselves is not the same thing as the farmers attacking first.

and then, after the farmers attack, thassarian joined it.

Yes, but the Horde also conducted attacks before Thassarian resumes military operations, we do not know if the farmers attacked first, or the Horde PC.

uhm yes, genn is justified to continue the war. but maybe not just after having signed a truce/peace in the middle of the warcraft apocalypse....

Pretty sure we were never told anything about any "signed peace"... And the Horde did the same thing to the Alliance during WoD, during an actual verified peace treaty.

[Jastall]

It's no more work than a normal expansion. I'm just saying it can be done, just because we're in an MMO doesn't mean it has to be a static experience. If your biggest examples on why it can't be done are Battlegrounds (skirmishes that are largely separate from the rest of the game anyhow) and transcontinental travel in a world where we teleport everywhere I don't think you've got a solid basis to say it can't be done.

It's also not for little gain, either. As I said before large upheavals in the story can create natural storylines down the road as Warcraft 2 did. The Horde everyone knows and loves can only exist in a franchise where they were busted down to the ground and remade. The alternative is they keep churning out more samey expansions, and forgive me if that isn't all that exciting after over a decade of samey expansions.

Those were mere examples. How can you use an occupied Orgrimmar as if nothing is happening? How would the Forskane even be allowed to survive? How does an auction house even make sense if the Horde is on the run and facing a blockade? How can any Horde story involve anyone but the Alliance if we're busy being crushed under their boot, presumably right after an entire expansion of faction war where we lose? And much, much more. Many game systems depend on the status quo.

It took Blizzard years to merely fix Stormwind's park. Post SoO Orgrimmar had no scars of the battle at all. You're way optimistic if you think they're going to upend an entire faction for the story's sake.

[Mehrunes]

You want to pull out a page number for them saying that the alliance killed those emissaries? All that is said is they never returned.

And Sylvanas' actions occurred before that anyways.

Except you're thinking about Chronicles, so congrats. And Alliance has no way of knowing of Sylvanas' earlier actions making them a non-factor in regards to their attitude towards the Forsaken.

And Sylvanas killing Alliance in Lordaeron in WC3 TFT just, what, never happened?

She killed Garithos, an Alliance Grand Marshal, after making a deal with him that promised him Lordaeron for the Alliance... One of two things happened next

1. She killed all of his troops as well, but we don't see this happen and chronicles makes no mention of it when it covers these events.

2. She didn't kill his troops, they witnessed her make her deal with Garithos, and then break it, murder him, and claim Lordaeron for herself.

If #2 is what occours, and it likely is since we are never shown or told she kills them, they would have gone back to the Alliance and told them what happened, which proves the forsaken couldn't be trusted and justifies all the hostilities between humans and forsaken before vanilla, and leaves Sylvie with no one to blame for it but herself.

Except we are never shown she lets them leave either, so you're engaging in special pleading here. On top of that, if they were survivors, people would talk about it. Yet the only person raising the issue was Garithos' aide that left before that. Furthermore, Anduin covered the topic of Forsaken envoys being killed by the Alliance, admitted it was wrong and apologized for it. If Alliance knew about what happened to Garithos none of that would make sense.

No, it's not, because they aren't creating more of their species, they are taking people of their species who are already alive and inflicting them with undeath.

The Forsaken are very much not taking those who are alive...

Also the game itself calls the plague an infection, so, yeah.

And given how the Forsaken don't use the plague to create more of themselves, this is relevant how...?

You got any proof of that? Not that it really matters... Whether the Alliance knew about it or not the Forsaken still attacked first, and have no right to be upset over Alliance aggression when they attacked Alliance troops before the Alliance ever attacked them.

That's not how diplomatic relations work.

Like I said, the Alliance had no reason to take her word for it.

Except what you said is wrong because Varian did explicitly take her word for it. That's the primary reason why he moved on Undercity.

Arming and training them to defend themselves is not the same thing as the farmers attacking first.

Yes, but the Horde also conducted attacks before Thassarian resumes military operations, we do not know if the farmers attacked first, or the Horde PC.

Yes we do. From Alliance's goddamn quests. Thassarian himself admits it. https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Battle...es!_(Alliance)!

Pretty sure we were never told anything about any "signed peace"... And the Horde did the same thing to the Alliance during WoD, during an actual verified peace treaty.

Given how there was no war in WoD or, technically, even in Legion, if you say there was an actual verified peace treaty during WoD then your notion that there was no peace in Legion is internal inconsistency on your part. And please, Anduin himself said Genn was not only in the wrong but also that he betrayed his orders (making him a traitor) to commit that wrong.

[Schattenlied]

Except you're thinking about Chronicles, so congrats. And Alliance has no way of knowing of Sylvanas' earlier actions making them a non-factor in regards to their attitude towards the Forsaken.

Perhaps, but it does factor into the farsaken't attitude towards the Alliance, they have zero right to be upset by Alliance aggression when they did the same thing to the Alliance first.

Furthermore, Anduin covered the topic of Forsaken envoys being killed by the Alliance, admitted it was wrong and apologized for it.

He said they were refused, not killed... What was that you were saying about "special pleading"?

The Forsaken are very much not taking those who are alive...

They are taking people who are alive, murdering them, and inflicting them with undeath.

Yeah, pretty sure that's worse.

And given how the Forsaken don't use the plague to create more of themselves, this is relevant how...?

The plague was a means of spreading the infection.

That's not how diplomatic relations work.

It is how Sylvanas being a massive hypocrite works though.

Except what you said is wrong because Varian did explicitly take her word for it. That's the primary reason why he moved on Undercity.

And then changed his mind.

Yes we do. From Alliance's goddamn quests. Thassarian himself admits it. https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Battle_Resumes!

"Word is" isn't exactly a confirmation on his part of a flawless chain of events... For all we know the farmers were armed by the PC, then attacked by the Horde PC, and then the farmers attacked (btw that link is broken, may want to fix it).

Given how there was no war in WoD or, technically, even in Legion, if you say there was an actual verified peace treaty during WoD then your notion that there was no peace in Legion is internal inconsistency on your part.

Dialogue from NPCs in stormshield confirms there was a peace treaty between the Horde and the Alliance during WoD, and that the Horde broke it in Ashran out of fear that the Alliance would use the ancient artifact against them. We were never told anything about that peace treaty being reestablished at any point after that.

And please, Anduin himself said Genn was not only in the wrong but also that he betrayed his orders (making him a traitor) to commit that wrong.

Anduin saying he was in the wrong is really irrelevant, as the High King does not have the any authority over other Alliance leaders, or any authority over other Alliance leader's military forces other than what he is voluntarily given... Per Metzen's own words the position of High King is "about army focus, not control", and "If other leaders don't like his calls, they don't commit forces.". Genn can really do whatever the hell he pleases... The High King doesn't have to back him, but he's still allowed to do it.

[omeomorfismo]

Yes, that's how things work.

No, it's not.



Incorrect, just because there isn't a known cure doesn't mean that it's not an infection, there are plenty of infections in the real world that there is no known cure for, doesn't make them not infections.

Also the game itself calls the plague an infection, so, yeah.
You got any proof of that?
You have proof that there was only 1 survivor? Also, that doesn't mean he didn't tell anyone what happened.


Says they were refused, not killed... They could have not returned for any number of reasons... They could have been attacked on the road by bandits, gnolls, ogres, trolls, blackrock orcs, dark iron dwarves, fucking black dragons, etc, there's a lot of dangerous shit between Stormwind and Undercity.


Like I said, the Alliance had no reason to take her word for it.


Arming and training them to defend themselves is not the same thing as the farmers attacking first.

Yes, but the Horde also conducted attacks before Thassarian resumes military operations, we do not know if the farmers attacked first, or the Horde PC.


Pretty sure we were never told anything about any "signed peace".

last time i checked the offsprings are similar to the parents, not completely different like half the size and weak as fuck...

yes it is. forsaken reproduction is pretty similar to the viruses, take the possession of a host and from this procreate new offspring (in this case the host is even the offspring)

and yes, the plague is an infection. because you know, the host had to die to become an undead (and that was the reason because paladins were immune from the infected grain). but the infection isnt needed to become an undeads; new forsakens, arthas' vrykuls, nerubians, nelf banshee didnt need the plague, different necromancy.... and even the naruu dont know a way to "reanimate" the undeads. its pretty clear that there isnt a way.

there is a single hint about somebody knowing the garithos fate in all wow and the books?
you have a proof of somebody knowing it?

the "survivor" didnt know anything, he deserted before the attack against the nathrezims. and there isnt another character from the garithos' forces in all wow and books, then i havent to prove anything (you should...)

"nobody returned"+"wheeep sorry, we refused them because they resemble the scourge"= absolutely they were alive!
yep sure....

and still varian declared war on the horde. the fact that we have the meta knowledge of an hypotetical sylvanas' scheme, it doesnt change that varian hadnt any reason to start a war with the horde.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/This_Is_Our_Army
they want to attack the forsakens from the farm and planned it before with thassarian...
it wouldnt make any sense if these forsaken outsiders were sent there to kill the farmers

sylvanas and varian fought toghether just moment/days before in the broked shores, impossible without a truce.
and you know, anduin expressly forbid them to attack the forsaken navy...

[Leodric]

there is a single hint about somebody knowing the garithos fate in all wow and the books?
you have a proof of somebody knowing it?

the "survivor" didnt know anything, he deserted before the attack against the nathrezims. and there isnt another character from the garithos' forces in all wow and books, then i havent to prove anything (you should...)

"nobody returned"+"wheeep sorry, we refused them because they resemble the scourge"= absolutely they were alive!
yep sure....

and still varian declared war on the horde. the fact that we have the meta knowledge of an hypotetical sylvanas' scheme, it doesnt change that varian hadnt any reason to start a war with the horde.

There is no proof that somebody isn't knowing it, so there is that.

Also there is no proof that the Alliance killed them afaik, so nobody knows what happened to them, might as well got killed by something else or their deaths were intentionally forced by some other being who wanted to start war between the factions (as it happened many times).

Yes, the reason is for the Forsaken killing an Alliance High Commander plus many troops. A big "oops we didn't know or didn't do it" isn't really trustworthy considering the plague was developed in UC, and there is still the possibility that Sylvanas might have lied and heavily implied by Afriasabi, that she did actually lie, so there is that.

All that stuff I wrote Schattenlied already explained, so w/e .

[Schattenlied]

last time i checked the offsprings are similar to the parents, not completely different like half the size and weak as fuck...

Last time I checked offspring are born from parents, and humans were exactly that from Vrykul... By your logic a human with dwarfism IRL is no longer a human, and that is wholly incorrect.

yes it is. forsaken reproduction is pretty similar to the viruses, take the possession of a host and from this procreate new offspring (in this case the host is even the offspring)

They aren't taking control of the host, the host still has full control of their mind. Undeath is not a new species and it is not an evolution, it is an affliction.

and even the naruu dont know a way to "reanimate" the undeads. its pretty clear that there isnt a way.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence... And why would the naaru know? It's not like they deal with undeath regularly... Humans have more experience with undeath than the naaru do.

there is a single hint about somebody knowing the garithos fate in all wow and the books?
you have a proof of somebody knowing it?

No, I don't, but you don't have any proof that they don't know and are acting like it's for sure they don't. The point is we don't know for sure, so acting like the Alliance is 100% at fault from the start is absurd, especially since the forsaken did in fact draw first blood. Whether the Alliance knew about it or not, hostilities were started by the forsaken.

"nobody returned"+"wheeep sorry, we refused them because they resemble the scourge"= absolutely they were alive!
yep sure....

I didn't write the lore, fact is you shouldn't say for sure that they were killed by the Alliance when there is no proof of it. He said they were refused and Chronicles said they didn't return, that is all we know, anything else is assumption.

and still varian declared war on the horde. the fact that we have the meta knowledge of an hypotetical sylvanas' scheme, it doesnt change that varian hadnt any reason to start a war with the horde.

Other than his people being attacked by the forsaken.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/This_Is_Our_Army
they want to attack the forsakens from the farm and planned it before with thassarian...
it wouldnt make any sense if these forsaken outsiders were sent there to kill the farmers

Still doesn't confirm they struck first, only that they were planning to attack at some point because the peace agreement between Thassarian and Koltira was not permanent and unsanctioned by either side's command structure... a resume of hostilities was inevitable, planning for what to do when that happens it is not unreasonable. The quest itself even says they were not planning to attack until after the battle had resumed, which might suggest that their hand was forced, like, by being attacked by the Horde PC.

sylvanas and varian fought toghether just moment/days before in the broked shores, impossible without a truce.

They may have had some sort of unspoken agreement but that doesn't mean there was any signed peace treaty. Signed means they sat down, wrote out terms, and put signatures on it. I doubt that happened very seriously.

and you know, anduin expressly forbid them to attack the forsaken navy...

Good thing for Genn that the High King doesn't have the authority to command him to do anything, as I just explained in the post above yours.

And please put some effort into formatting your posts.

[Just1c3]

If the writers decide they want it to be possible, then yes, it will be possible.

WoW's writers over the years have figured out ways to shoehorn in and justify all sorts of ridiculous happenings, so if they decide "yes we want this to happen" then they'll figure out a way to write it in.

[Leodric]

If the writers decide they want it to be possible, then yes, it will be possible.

WoW's writers over the years have figured out ways to shoehorn in and justify all sorts of ridiculous happenings, so if they decide "yes we want this to happen" then they'll figure out a way to write it in.

I heard that with warcraft reforged some elements of the story are going to be changed a little bit, could also be fake information, but maybe they will introduce more of the background stuff which happened. This opens ways for either more clarification of what happened in the background or for more retcons we could have never imagined.

[Niroshi]

Those were mere examples. How can you use an occupied Orgrimmar as if nothing is happening? How would the Forskane even be allowed to survive? How does an auction house even make sense if the Horde is on the run and facing a blockade? How can any Horde story involve anyone but the Alliance if we're busy being crushed under their boot, presumably right after an entire expansion of faction war where we lose? And much, much more. Many game systems depend on the status quo.

It took Blizzard years to merely fix Stormwind's park. Post SoO Orgrimmar had no scars of the battle at all. You're way optimistic if you think they're going to upend an entire faction for the story's sake.

Your Orgrimmar example is the easiest of the lot, given that we can access Darnassus right now without difficulty despite it being burned down. Same thing with the Undercity. It doesn't have to be fit into current timeline for it to exist. Shit 80% of the game is still in Cataclysm. Auction houses don't really change either, they just become canon black markets for a time instead of proper auction houses. All AHs in the game are just a dude standing on a box somewhere to connect the player to the AH GUI, so the new AH just becomes a guy standing on a different box in a cave somewhere. We even have mobile AHs on mounts now without issue.

The Forsaken can live pretty much anywhere, I'm not sure why you think they'd be wiped out. Besides the Alliance doesn't really have the hate boner they had in the past regarding the Forsaken. Even Greymane is pretty chill with them now, everyone's hate boner is now squarely aimed at Sylvanas.

The game is way less limited than you seem to think it is. Game systems are malleable as hell and can fit pretty much anything Blizz cooks up. Granted as I said before I don't think they will do any of this, but I think they should.

[Schattenlied]

I heard that with warcraft reforged some elements of the story are going to be changed a little bit, could also be fake information, but maybe they will introduce more of the background stuff which happened. This opens ways for either more clarification of what happened in the background or for more retcons we could have never imagined.

I doubt they will retcon anything that is in chronicles, so if they make any changes it will likely be in grey areas that haven't been fully explained yet (like, for instance, whether or not Garithos' troops survived).

[Leodric]

I doubt they will retcon anything that is in chronicles, so if they make any changes it will likely be in grey areas that haven't been fully explained yet (like, for instance, whether or not Garithos' troops survived).

I also doubt they will change obvious stuff like the purge of Stratholme never happening or anything like that, but I fear they might change "minor details", which are just "minor" in their eyes and actually just create paradox situations. Stuff like some character having powers which they shouldn't have yet (because they get it later in the story) comes to mind. Maybe a small things to create some cool cinematics, but lorewise making no sense.

[omeomorfismo]

There is no proof that somebody isn't knowing it, so there is that.

Also there is no proof that the Alliance killed them afaik, so nobody knows what happened to them, might as well got killed by something else or their deaths were intentionally forced by some other being who wanted to start war between the factions (as it happened many times).

Yes, the reason is for the Forsaken killing an Alliance High Commander plus many troops. A big "oops we didn't know or didn't do it" isn't really trustworthy considering the plague was developed in UC, and there is still the possibility that Sylvanas might have lied and heavily implied by Afriasabi, that she did actually lie, so there is that.

All that stuff I wrote Schattenlied already explained, so w/e .

are you trying to pull a russel's teapot here?
are you really suggesting that until in wow and the books there are all azerothians we cant says with certainty anything? lol

so exactly why anduin had to apologize for them, even saying that they resemble the scourge? why blizz said that they didnt return instead of they were simply refused?
you can climb the mirrors all the day, but saying that they werent killed still doesnt make any sense

still
variann
started
the
war
our meta-knowledges or any justifications varian could have, they dont change anything

[Leodric]

are you trying to pull a russel's teapot here?
are you really suggesting that until in wow and the books there are all azerothians we cant says with certainty anything? lol

so exactly why anduin had to apologize for them, even saying that they resemble the scourge? why blizz said that they didnt return instead of they were simply refused?
you can climb the mirrors all the day, but saying that they werent killed still doesnt make any sense

still
variann
started
the
war
our meta-knowledges or any justifications varian could have, they dont change anything

It would make sense that they were killed by the Alliance, nobody is denying that. It would also make sense that they have died because of the countless of other dangerous creatures lurking around Azeroth. We just don't know for 100% and as we've seen other entities tried more than once to start wars between the factions with false flag kills, so there is that as well.

hypothetical, So me punching you wouldn't start a fight/war but you declaring it right afterwards would start a war? Because that's what basically happened. The Forsaken bombarded and killed many alliance soliders + a very important high commander.

[Mehrunes]

It would make sense that they were killed by the Alliance, nobody is denying that. It would also make sense that they have died because of the countless of other dangerous creatures lurking around Azeroth. We just don't know for 100% and as we've seen other entities tried more than once to start wars between the factions with false flag kills, so there is that as well.

And what scheming entities are there between Undercity and Stormwind, exactly? Most of hostile third parties on that path are of the more moronic side.

hypothetical, So me punching you wouldn't start a fight/war but you declaring it right afterwards would start a war? Because that's what basically happened. The Forsaken bombarded and killed many alliance soliders + a very important high commander.

Forsaken rebels did that. And Varian acknowledged them as such. On top of that, Chronicle v3 explicitly said Varian declared war. Meaning there was no war prior to his declaration.

[Schattenlied]

And what scheming entities are there between Undercity and Stormwind, exactly? Most of hostile third parties on that path are of the more moronic side.

Black dragons?

Was Katrana Prestor (Onyxia) not one of the most powerful people in Stormwind around that time? If the emissaries showed up after Varian's disapperance (orchestrated by her) then she would have basically been in charge of Stormwind entirely, as she was both royal councilor to Anduin, and controlling the Regent Lord of Stormwind (Bolvar Fordragon) with an enchanted amulet. For all we know it was her that had them killed, either directly or by having them assassinated on their way home so that neither side knew what truly happened... Doing that kind of thing was kinda her bread and butter.

[Schattenlied]

Or you know, they were zombies so people shot them dead when they saw them running towards Elwynn. Because that's what people who survived the zombie apocalypse do to zombies, they kill them dead.

Anduin said they were refused, that would strongly imply they made it to talking.

[Mehrunes]

Perhaps, but it does factor into the farsaken't attitude towards the Alliance, they have zero right to be upset by Alliance aggression when they did the same thing to the Alliance first.

But the topic wasn't really about being upset.

He said they were refused, not killed... What was that you were saying about "special pleading"?

Given how even Death Knights, who waltzed into Stormwind years later when humankind had time to chill out about undead being a thing, were only not killed on the spot because they carried a letter from Tirion, are you really going to pretend that the humans didn't have a knee-jerk reaction to undead monstrosities walking around human outposts just after the scouring of Lordaeron happened? And why would Anduin even have to apologize if the refusal wasn't violent? It's not like the Alliance has an open door policy or that the Forsaken were entitled a membership. That aside, even if I'm wrong, what would that have to do with special pleading?

They are taking people who are alive, murdering them, and inflicting them with undeath.

Yeah, pretty sure that's worse.

Actually, most of new Forsaken come from old graves across Lordaeron. Deathknell alone was pumping out hundreds of new Forsaken daily when the Val'kyr were stationed there. The morality of things also wasn't a tangent explored in what I was replying to, so I'm not sure why you'd throw it in now.

The plague was a means of spreading the infection.

There's no "infection". Undeath in general is a result necromantic magic. Which was an element of the Plague. There are ways of creating undead that have nothing to do with the Plague. Hell, you can make them even with Light now.

It is how Sylvanas being a massive hypocrite works though.

Which isn't really relevant to the topic. Acts Sylvanas has done, hypocritically or not, that the Alliance has no way of knowing about are irrelevant to the faction relations in general, let alone justifications for conflict specifically.

And then changed his mind.

Literally when?

"Word is" isn't exactly a confirmation on his part of a flawless chain of events... For all we know the farmers were armed by the PC, then attacked by the Horde PC, and then the farmers attacked (btw that link is broken, may want to fix it).

Except the "word is" part covers them arming themselves. Them just arming themselves isn't exactly an attack, is it now? So read the next sentence. On how the farmers initiated an attack. The Horde version corroborates this too. Koltira was caught with his pants down, talks about Alliance made a move and is surprised that Thassarian would go back on his word to him.

Dialogue from NPCs in stormshield confirms there was a peace treaty between the Horde and the Alliance during WoD, and that the Horde broke it in Ashran out of fear that the Alliance would use the ancient artifact against them. We were never told anything about that peace treaty being reestablished at any point after that.

The guard only ponders whether the Horde forgot there is a treaty in place. There was no war, just like there was no war in Legion even though the factions fought each other here and there. If there was no war even after Stormheim, the treaty would technically have been still in effect, just with both sides wiping their asses with it.

Anduin saying he was in the wrong is really irrelevant, as the High King does not have the any authority over other Alliance leaders, or any authority over other Alliance leader's military forces other than what he is voluntarily given... Per Metzen's own words the position of High King is "about army focus, not control", and "If other leaders don't like his calls, they don't commit forces.". Genn can really do whatever the hell he pleases... The High King doesn't have to back him, but he's still allowed to do it.

I'm perfectly aware of Metzen's words. Instead of grasping at straws try to pay attention. If Genn was acting under Anduin's orders (which he himself admits as well, when first boarding the gunship) he was among the "forces that were voluntarily given" to the High King. Making this act fall entirely under Anduin's jurisdiction.

Black dragons?

Was Katrana Prestor (Onyxia) not one of the most powerful people in Stormwind around that time? If the emissaries showed up after Varian's disapperance (orchestrated by her) then she would have basically been in charge of Stormwind entirely, as she was both royal councilor to Anduin, and controlling the Regent Lord of Stormwind (Bolvar Fordragon) with an enchanted amulet. For all we know it was her that had them killed, either directly or by having them assassinated on their way home so that neither side knew what truly happened... Doing that kind of thing was kinda her bread and butter.

Sylvanas sent envoys immediately after winning the Civil War in the Plaguelands, so the timing would be off for Varian to disappear already as that happened ~3 years later. And Onyxia never soiled her claws when she was masquerading as Prestor, probably to not even risk ruining her disguise. So if she sent anyone after Forsaken envoys, it'd still be Stormwind mooks listening to their "noblewoman".

[omeomorfismo]

Last time I checked offspring are born from parents, and humans were exactly that from Vrykul... By your logic a human with dwarfism IRL is no longer a human, and that is wholly incorrect.

dwarf still can have normal child, there arent a single vrykul born from humans.

They aren't taking control of the host, the host still has full control of their mind. Undeath is not a new species and it is not an evolution, it is an affliction.

? valkyr literally cast on the corpse and the result is a changed being, with a different mind (you know, the unability to feel our normal emotion) and different metabolism, but completely similar to all other forsakens. they respect literally all our definitions of "form of life"...

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence... And why would the naaru know? It's not like they deal with undeath regularly... Humans have more experience with undeath than the naaru do.

damn, the humans developed their paladin only thanks the naruu dreams specifically to fight the orgrim's dks and a naruu just ressed calia.

No, I don't, but you don't have any proof that they don't know and are acting like it's for sure they don't. The point is we don't know for sure, so acting like the Alliance is 100% at fault from the start is absurd, especially since the forsaken did in fact draw first blood. Whether the Alliance knew about it or not, hostilities were started by the forsaken.

forsaken ended the hostilities with the garithos' alliance. if there isnt a single note about someone knowing it, then we cant use a russel's teapot argument to say otherwhise, it would kill any discussion because this isnt math, and we could move the goalpost endlessly

stormwind alliance then started not only for the ambassador affair, but mostly in hillsbrad (that was my initial point).

I didn't write the lore, fact is you shouldn't say for sure that they were killed by the Alliance when there is no proof of it. He said they were refused and Chronicles said they didn't return, that is all we know, anything else is assumption.

if they werent killed then which scenario would make sense? there is even a single one?

Other than his people being attacked by the forsaken.

no, treacherous forsakens, just killed moment before.
sylvanas never declared war or attacked anyone, varian and all other hadnt our, still hypotetical, meta-knowledge.

Still doesn't confirm they struck first, only that they were planning to attack at some point because the peace agreement between Thassarian and Koltira was not permanent and unsanctioned by either side's command structure... a resume of hostilities was inevitable, planning for what to do when that happens it is not unreasonable. The quest itself even says they were not planning to attack until after the battle had resumed, which might suggest that their hand was forced, like, by being attacked by the Horde PC.

they just attacked the outriders to prepare their ambush before all.

They may have had some sort of unspoken agreement but that doesn't mean there was any signed peace treaty. Signed means they sat down, wrote out terms, and put signatures on it. I doubt that happened very seriously.

i really doubt that in a medieval fantasy setting someone really care more about signed agreements over the spoken ones

Good thing for Genn that the High King doesn't have the authority to command him to do anything, as I just explained in the post above yours.

And please put some effort into formatting your posts.

wasnt the high king a military status? if a military status couldnt decide about his sky admirals and the skyfire then why he is still the chief? why genn instead could?

[Schattenlied]

But the topic wasn't really about being upset.

It does when the people arguing on the bahalf of the Forsaken are trying to act like the Forsaken are completely innocent and that the Alliance drew first blood. They didn't. People need to stop acting like the Forsaken never did anything bad before the Alliance started being mean to them.

Given how even Death Knights, who waltzed into Stormwind years later when humankind had time to chill out about undead being a thing, were only not killed on the spot because they carried a letter from Tirion, are you really going to pretend that the humans didn't have a knee-jerk reaction to undead monstrosities walking around human outposts just after the scouring of Lordaeron happened?

Stormwind was just directly attacked by Scourge forces... And the Death Knights still had time to actually show the letter before they were killed... So, yeah.

And why would Anduin even have to apologize if the refusal wasn't violent?

Because they lumped the Forsaken in with the Forsaken's mortal enemies? Pretty sure that's apology worthy.

That aside, even if I'm wrong, what would that have to do with special pleading?

I donno, maybe because you're accusing them of murder without proof?

Actually, most of new Forsaken come from old graves across Lordaeron. Deathknell alone was pumping out hundreds of new Forsaken daily when the Val'kyr were stationed there.

Most is not all, though.

Which isn't really relevant to the topic. Acts Sylvanas has done, hypocritically or not, that the Alliance has no way of knowing about are irrelevant to the faction relations in general, let alone justifications for conflict specifically.

1. We don't know the alliance has no way of knowing.

2. It is justification for the Forsaken having no right to hold hostilities against them when they know that they struck first.

Literally when?

When he declared war?

Except the "word is" part covers them arming themselves. Them just arming themselves isn't exactly an attack, is it now? So read the next sentence. On how the farmers initiated an attack.

Yes, initiated the planned attack that they had specifically planned to only do after hostilities resumed...

If they planned specifically to attack after hostilities had resumed, and then were attacked by the Horde PC, they would have assumed the war was back on and initiated their attack plan, would they not?

The guard only ponders whether the Horde forgot there is a treaty in place.

Which he ponders precisely because the Horde launched an assault on the Alliance in Ashran...

I'm perfectly aware of Metzen's words. Instead of grasping at straws try to pay attention. If Genn was acting under Anduin's orders (which he himself admits as well, when first boarding the gunship) he was among the "forces that were voluntarily given" to the High King. Making this act fall entirely under Anduin's jurisdiction.

Pretty sure he can retract his support whenever he feels like it.

Sylvanas sent envoys immediately after winning the Civil War in the Plaguelands

Source on that timing? I don't recall it being that immediate.

And Onyxia never soiled her claws when she was masquerading as Prestor, probably to not even risk ruining her disguise. So if she sent anyone after Forsaken envoys, it'd still be Stormwind mooks listening to their "noblewoman".

Not necessarily... Both the Blackrock Orcs and the Black Dragonflight in the area between SW and UC would have been well within her ability to give directives to... Could have easily had them do it.

- - - Updated - - -

dwarf still can have normal child, there arent a single vrykul born from humans.

This isn't really relevant, humans were still directly children of Vrykul.

? valkyr literally cast on the corpse and the result is a changed being, with a different mind (you know, the unability to feel our normal emotion) and different metabolism, but completely similar to all other forsakens. they respect literally all our definitions of "form of life"...

They don't feel things properly presumably because of decay... It's not really touched on but the decaying would essentially be causing brain damage, which can and does effect how one perceives emotions.

damn, the humans developed their paladin only thanks the naruu dreams specifically to fight the orgrim's dks and a naruu just ressed calia.

No, they developed the church of the Light thanks to dreams introducing them to the concept of the Light at all, and all that happened long, long before Paladins ever were a thing, long long before Orcs ever set foot on Azeroth, before the Alliance of Lordaeron ever existed... It was actually during the time of the Empire of Arathor that humans first started worshiping the Light.


Anduin and Alonus Faol had as much hand in that resurrection as the naaru did.

forsaken ended the hostilities with the garithos' alliance. if there isnt a single note about someone knowing it, then we cant use a russel's teapot argument to say otherwhise, it would kill any discussion because this isnt math, and we could move the goalpost endlessly

Nor can you use it as an argument that they for sure didn't... We see a lot as players, we see things and know things that people in world don't even know, and we never saw or heard anything about Sylvanas having killed Garithos' soldiers... This is very very much an up in the air thing.

stormwind alliance then started not only for the ambassador affair


if they werent killed then which scenario would make sense? there is even a single one?

You are again assuming that Stormwind killed them and they didn't die on their way home... Like I already said there were a lot of things that could have killed them off on the road between SW and UC.

Anduin specifically said they were refused, not killed. I'm going to take his word at face value and go with they left alive.

no, treacherous forsakens, just killed moment before.
sylvanas never declared war or attacked anyone, varian and all other hadnt our, still hypotetical, meta-knowledge.

Varian changed his mind because of what he saw in Undercity... The Blight was developed there, in plain sight, they found mutilated bodies of humans that were experimented on in it's creation.

they just attacked the outriders to prepare their ambush.

You're not providing any evidence that they struck first, still. We still don't know if that happened before or after the Horde PC attacked them.

wasnt the high king a military status? if a military status couldnt decide about his sky admirals and the skyfire then why he is still the chief? why genn instead could?

The only person who would have been in violation of orders would be the Sky Admiral, since she is a part of Stormwind's military, Genn and his people are not, and they are not required to follow the High King's orders unless Genn tells them to.