Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Wermys]

Long Spoilers discussing how the movie works

There is a lot of confusion on how the movie works. One, it is entirely consistent. Rule #1, time travel is impossible to go into YOUR past. Rule #2 Time Travel is NOT impossible to go into alternate reality past. #3 Every action taken in the alternate reality past creates a new timeline that continuously branches. Those are the rules in this movie.

For those people confused how Captain went into the past married Peggy and became an old man without ruining the timeline. Well, the fact is, he has always gone into the past in this timeline. That has always taken place, and will always take place. The old man is Steve Rogers, it is a Steve Rogers who came into this timeline some time in the past. And now exists in the current. That Steve Rogers could very well be the same Steve Rogers, or a different Steve Rogers. Frankly it doesn't matter at all. The point is that he is Steve Rogers. Now as far him going into the past. Remember. When he went back to the second time to return everything. He is going to the same timeline/alternate universe that he got them from because of Tony's device. Now him depositing the Stones/Mace actually makes a third Timeline. The Second timeline continued until the point in time where he returned the Stones, or didn't return the Stones. When he at the end where instead of returning to reality he stayed with Peggy, at that moment it created another time/alternate universe. Now when Falcon and Bucky in the future see old Steve. That old Steve is not the same Steve that they knew necessarily. It is a Steve who came back into time and jumped into this universe. The key to this working is if the whole Universe is from Steve's point of view. Since from his perspective he went back in time to do this. As for Bucky and Falcon, from there point of view he has also always gone into the past and come forward. Nothing is changes at all. Since time is always moving forward for the current POV, never ever backwards from Steve's POV. All that happens is that it just keeps creating branchs. That is it. As the ancient one states. This is not there reality. This is a constant that happens in this universe is that you can't travel to your OWN past. But you can hop into the time stream and create a new branch with a change.

Things to consider in the future. This movie firmly attached one rule in place. You can't go back and change your past. It also established that it is possible to go to alternate versions of reality/time/dimension. This means that you could see someone else pop into this timeline from another timeline. So it is entirely conceivable that Loki for example hitched a ride with Thanos, or that in the timeline/reality where they all went Thanos disappeared and is no longer heard form again, while the stones still exist in that universe thanks to Steve bringing them back. Anyone this is how I interpret this all working. Essentially, this is a comic universe and these things are extremely common in comics and they are bringing this as an obvious possible feature to the MCU

[Faroth]

Thanks for your reply. Hmmm regarding #1 .. Care to explain further in depts who else is there besides Thanos? Anyone likeable; awesome character creation, awesome story behind etc?

I think the real issue there is that there aren't as many that cross multiple franchises within Marvel like the Infinity Gauntlet storyline.

You've got Mangog, Gorr the God Butcher, and Desak that are pretty powerful mentions, but they're more focused to the Asgardians.

You've got Onslaught, but you'd need a loooooong road of X-Men before he became something worth bringing up. Same with the Phoenix Force (Fox has failed Dark Phoenix by shoehorning her in immediately after hinting at Jean even having such power twice now).

Hyperion is a possibility, but he'd be seen as rip off Superman (for good reason) and he's less known.

You've got villains like Mephisto and Dormammu (returning), but they're more specific to Dr. Strange and I somewhat doubt Mephisto will become a player just to the whole "demons are shaky ground for worldwide box office" stigma.

Personally, though? I'd be perfectly fine with a break from tradition and letting the MCU diverge for a while. Spider-Man works best when he's a notch above Defenders street level but 2 notches below Avengers threats. When his stories are more personal and less "the whole city is in danger!" is where he shines. Black Panther can step away from big stuff and have more contained stories within Wakanda with less world hopping adventure. Strange works great doing his own thing. Go for the self contained films with only logical cameos or small team ups rather than everything leading to the next story and building up to another villain that's going to struggle with "How do we top Thanos?"

The Avengers side could easily support 1-2 phases of stand alone films with smaller connections and bringing X-franchises in could offer the team based stories the Avengers films have offered.

I'd probably assume Kang or Galactus (with his Heralds being the advance movie villains before his arrival). However, it's possible Adam Warlock/Magus could be built up since they're going more cosmic after Endgame. With Fantastic Four surely coming sooner than later (sooner than X-Men I'd guess anyway), Galactus would fit there.

Though Kang is tricky now since his whole thing relies heavily on time travel and threatening timelines whereas we just established that's not how time travel works in the MCU. Then again, maybe Tony's work is rudimentary compared with understanding thousands of years more advanced.

However, I suppose the Beyonder and Secret War would be one that could build up over time.

[PACOX]

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You need to get over yourself sound like the idiots crying about people not liking TLJ people have different opinions. I happen to consider one of the endings vastly out of character and it sullies the film for me quite a bit.

Found one of the people who need to lighten up. Chill out before you give yourself an ulcer.

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I think the next few MCU movies will be self contained for old and new fans of the character. The Avengers (New Avengers) will be on Disney+. Externals and GotG 3 will introduce more cosmic entities. These will come into play down the line.

I think the next major movie will the introduction of mutants as antagonist to the Avengers (Avengers vs X-men). That will lead into a planetary mutant threat where mutants like the X-men must be trusted. Then we'll get a cosmic threat. Fuck it, let's do a Phoenix story, Disney really doesn't care about the shortcomings of other studios, who cares if it's the 3rd Phoenix for a lot of people. Throw in Galactus for good measure. That's enough content until we're looking at 50.

[Serpha]

How the hell are they going to feed all the extra 3-4 billion people? Surely infrastructure isn't there after 5 years, so half of those returned will probably die of hunger anyway. They didn't think about that. did they. Thanos was right after all, too many mouths, not enough to go around.

[Wermys]

Half of all life came back. including all those plants/animals that died. Ergo half the crops that failed and livestock that was snapped has come back.

[Aurrora]

Ergo half the crops that failed and livestock that was snapped has come back.

I didn't see any Wakandan trees getting dusted...

[Serpha]

5 years is a long time, machines get rusty, uncared buildings turn derelict, crop fields get overgrown with weed, vandalism, looting and so on...

[PACOX]

5 years is a long time, machines get rusty, uncared buildings turn derelict, crop fields get overgrown with weed, vandalism, looting and so on...

This is a universe where FTL is possible. The leader of a group of people with supernatural powers and magic technology has nothing but a shield. A country that's 100 years more advanced than the rest of the world has been that way for thousands of years, oh and it's hidden in the middle of the poorest continent on the planet.

I think they'll be able to deal with a little food shortage.

[Aurrora]

Long Spoilers discussing how the movie works

There is a lot of confusion on how the movie works. One, it is entirely consistent. Rule #1, time travel is impossible to go into YOUR past. Rule #2 Time Travel is NOT impossible to go into alternate reality past. #3 Every action taken in the alternate reality past creates a new timeline that continuously branches. Those are the rules in this movie.

For those people confused how Captain went into the past married Peggy and became an old man without ruining the timeline. Well, the fact is, he has always gone into the past in this timeline. That has always taken place, and will always take place. The old man is Steve Rogers, it is a Steve Rogers who came into this timeline some time in the past. And now exists in the current. That Steve Rogers could very well be the same Steve Rogers, or a different Steve Rogers. Frankly it doesn't matter at all. The point is that he is Steve Rogers. Now as far him going into the past. Remember. When he went back to the second time to return everything. He is going to the same timeline/alternate universe that he got them from because of Tony's device. Now him depositing the Stones/Mace actually makes a third Timeline. The Second timeline continued until the point in time where he returned the Stones, or didn't return the Stones. When he at the end where instead of returning to reality he stayed with Peggy, at that moment it created another time/alternate universe. Now when Falcon and Bucky in the future see old Steve. That old Steve is not the same Steve that they knew necessarily. It is a Steve who came back into time and jumped into this universe. The key to this working is if the whole Universe is from Steve's point of view. Since from his perspective he went back in time to do this. As for Bucky and Falcon, from there point of view he has also always gone into the past and come forward. Nothing is changes at all. Since time is always moving forward for the current POV, never ever backwards from Steve's POV. All that happens is that it just keeps creating branchs. That is it. As the ancient one states. This is not there reality. This is a constant that happens in this universe is that you can't travel to your OWN past. But you can hop into the time stream and create a new branch with a change.

Things to consider in the future. This movie firmly attached one rule in place. You can't go back and change your past. It also established that it is possible to go to alternate versions of reality/time/dimension. This means that you could see someone else pop into this timeline from another timeline. So it is entirely conceivable that Loki for example hitched a ride with Thanos, or that in the timeline/reality where they all went Thanos disappeared and is no longer heard form again, while the stones still exist in that universe thanks to Steve bringing them back. Anyone this is how I interpret this all working. Essentially, this is a comic universe and these things are extremely common in comics and they are bringing this as an obvious possible feature to the MCU

No, just no.

1) If the MCU's Old Steve is the future self of the Steve that returned the Infinity Stones this violates the rules of time travel that the movie established. This means that Old Steve's past is his timeline's future, for him to exist that means there were never 14 million possible timelines that Dr. Strange looked into, there was only the one timeline where they won, and the outcome was fixed due to a predestination paradox.

2) If the MCU's Old Steve is the result of another timeline's Steve returning the Infinity Stones to the MCU then the MCU's Thanos should have already attempted to stop the undoing of his work in another timeline, realized the futility of his quest and amended his methods or simply have disappeared depending on whether you think Tony's snap returned them to their timeline or simply killed them all. It also means that Old Steve callously stood by and allowed all the shit in the MCU to happen when he could have assisted without jeopardizing his existence.

The returning of the stones being an act that creates another branch of the timeline also doesn't work, the whole reason the Ancient One allowed the plan to go forward was because the stones being returned would preserve the timeline. This causing a branch means from the perspective of the Ancient One that allowed the stone to be taken her timeline is fucked.

Relying on this being "Steve's pov" to ignore plotholes is also nonsense, as this only works if Old Steve and Young Steve are the same Steve and as we established in 1, this is not how the MCU presents time travel as working.

[Espo]

No, just no.

1) If the MCU's Old Steve is the future self of the Steve that returned the Infinity Stones this violates the rules of time travel that the movie established. This means that Old Steve's past is his timeline's future, for him to exist that means there were never 14 million possible timelines that Dr. Strange looked into, there was only the one timeline where they won, and the outcome was fixed due to a predestination paradox.

2) If the MCU's Old Steve is the result of another timeline's Steve returning the Infinity Stones to the MCU then the MCU's Thanos should have already attempted to stop the undoing of his work in another timeline, realized the futility of his quest and amended his methods or simply have disappeared depending on whether you think Tony's snap returned them to their timeline or simply killed them all. It also means that Old Steve callously stood by and allowed all the shit in the MCU to happen when he could have assisted without jeopardizing his existence.

The returning of the stones being an act that creates another branch of the timeline also doesn't work, the whole reason the Ancient One allowed the plan to go forward was because the stones being returned would preserve the timeline. This causing a branch means from the perspective of the Ancient One that allowed the stone to be taken her timeline is fucked.

Relying on this being "Steve's pov" to ignore plotholes is also nonsense, as this only works if Old Steve and Young Steve are the same Steve and as we established in 1, this is not how the MCU presents time travel as working.

Yea....thoughts below:

I think I've settled on this part of the moving being broken, which honestly didn't bother me. Seeing Steve finally not have to sacrifice, get a happy ending, and pass the torch outweighed the rules of time travel to me.

Curious though, even though they mention he didn't trigger his GPS--could it be possible that he simply did end up triggering his bracelet, albeit when he was really old?

[Shadowferal]

This definitely has the Last Jedi smell...a lot of disappointed folks and yet...most critics loved it for "reasons."

[Aurrora]

Yea....thoughts below:

I think I've settled on this part of the moving being broken, which honestly didn't bother me. Seeing Steve finally not have to sacrifice, get a happy ending, and pass the torch outweighed the rules of time travel to me.

Curious though, even though they mention he didn't trigger his GPS--could it be possible that he simply did end up triggering his bracelet, albeit when he was really old?

Doing so would have resolved the plothole by having him live out his life in the alternate timeline instead of the MCU's timeline, but then he should have returned to the pad instead of wandering in to sit on the bench while his younger self left.

[TJ]

Was expecting to be disappointed, surprisingly pleased. Sure, it wasn't perfect but what is? A very good ending to wrap up the plot and I thoroughly enjoyed the last fight scene. 8.5/10.

[dragonballgtz]

This definitely has the Last Jedi smell...a lot of disappointed folks and yet...most critics loved it for "reasons."

Nope, this movie is way better than The Last Jedi. They might have been able to cut about 20 minutes or so from it to but you can tell they want to inform you of everything ongoing, as this is the end.

There is only one scene in Endgame that is clearly about SJW and the scene is there just to be there.

I liked Thor the most in this movie.

EDIT:
I do hate time travel story lines. They always get messy and you have questions at the end about timelines and all that jazz.

[PACOX]

Funny thing for me is that I don't care about any of that stuff. The only things that ruined the movie for me are...

1. Fat Thor
2. Tony dies
3. Gamora is gone

When Thanos encountered her inside the soul gem at the end of IW, I fully expected that she would somehow be able to be released from the soul gem and restored as she was. Now, I have no idea how they will handle Guardians 3. This new Gamora never experienced anything that happened in the first two movies. She will never truly have the relationship with Peter that she once did. Thanos destroyed the soul gem that contained her soul. The [b]only[/b] way I can see them salvaging this is if someone like Mantis is able to give her the memories that others have of her.

Basically, they ruined many of the characters' future possibilities. I get that RDJ was done with Iron Man, but there is no reason he couldn't have just ridden off into the sunset with his family after handing off the mantle of Iron Man like Cap did.

The only thing I was absolutely thrilled with is how little involvement Captain Mary Sue had in the movie.

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Also, the fans who did love it act like those of us who didn't are nothing but trolls.

It sucks to see you characters to lose but I don't know how that ruins a story when it makes sense/adds to it.

Fat Thor ruined it? It make sense to me. Apart from Thor being comic relief, the thing that makes him a good character is that he is a god but extremely flawed. And why is he flawed? He is constantly doubting and hard himself because he is consumed with being something that he thinks he is 'supposed to be'. Throughout the saga his mental state wrecks him until we get the Thor we see in New Asgard. The words from his mom freed him from the jail he had placed himself in. Made so much sense.

Tony went from a selfish playboy to fighting for humanity but still making it about his own glory (IW beginning of Endgame). At the 5 year jump in movie his character was fulfilled. He was finally with the love of his life, had a kid, free of any real world obligations except for his family. He had no reason to fight anymore because he had everything he ever wanted in life...thats if his character hadn't emotionally evolved over the years. Iron Man 1 Tony would have 100% told Cap to fuck off. The present Tony knew he was just living the life he thought the old him would have wanted. Present couldn't give up on humanity. His death was him committing a selfless act for the sake of others, even if it meant leaving his family behind.

Gamora A is dead yo. The soul stone has consequences.

Also its sort of understood that this movie would close the book on a lot of characters. A good chunk of them will not be in the future timeline. The torch was passed on a lot of titles and positions. Old Cap, old Iron Man, Black Widow gone. Hulk probable. Thor turned in his keys too. Oh and Hawkeye. That's the top of the Avengers gone to make way for the secondary characters, Falcon, Spiderman, Bucky?. The kid from Iron Man 3 was at the funeral, will he be putting on a suit? Tony's daughter had thrusters on her hand. Wakanda will replace Stark Enterprise. Ant Man will probably transition to his daughter. The Old Guard is done. Hell, they even left an exit for the GotG but James Gunn is back on board!

[Miyagie]

Doing so would have resolved the plothole by having him live out his life in the alternate timeline instead of the MCU's timeline, but then he should have returned to the pad instead of wandering in to sit on the bench while his younger self left.

Maybe he came back with the first pad at the Avenger HQ during the time heist and watched the later battle from save distance just for lulz.

[Espo]

It sucks to see you characters to lose but I don't know how that ruins a story when it makes sense/adds to it.


Tony went from a selfish playboy to fighting for humanity but still making it about his own glory (IW beginning of Endgame). At the 5 year jump in movie his character was fulfilled. He was finally with the love of his life, had a kid, free of any real world obligations except for his family. He had no reason to fight anymore because he had everything he ever wanted in life...thats if his character hadn't emotionally evolved over the years. Iron Man 1 Tony would have 100% told Cap to fuck off. The present Tony knew he was just living the life he thought the old him would have wanted. Present couldn't give up on humanity. His death was him committing a selfless act for the sake of others, even if it meant leaving his family behind.

100% agree here. This was the perfect moment for Tony. When Capt. was fighting Thanos, and got up after getting taken down, I was fully expecting them to go the easy route and have Steve sacrifice, yet again, for the greater good. But they didn't take the easy way out and had Tony, for the first time, do something truly selfless. His family didn't win and he didn't win, but everyone else did. There was great foreshadowing to this moment when he's talking to his dad. I don't remember the exact quote, but something about him wishing his son wasn't like him in that he didn't put himself over the greater good.

And I loved the brief moment between him and Dr. Strange, right before he took the gems/stones. Strange looks at him, knows what Tony is thinking and is basically like "yup, this is what you have to do Tony" and gives him the '1'.

[Tartys]

A question about the post credit.. there is no scene but there is a sound...


like a sword being forged ... it may be a new Garona's sword the Godslayer?

[Leyre]

Fucking movie made me cry

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A question about the post credit.. there is no scene but there is a sound...


like a sword being forged ... it may be Garona's sword the Godslayer?

No, those are the sounds made by tony when making the suit in the cave in IM 1

[Tekkommo]

Half of all life came back. including all those plants/animals that died. Ergo half the crops that failed and livestock that was snapped has come back.

I think you're looking into this style of movie too much

The main thing I found dumb with this movie was Thanos idea to wipe out everything, yeah because history won't repeat itself, even if it takes billions of years from the creation of the universe. The whole idea is dumb to begin with wiping out 50% of the population, but it's what I expect from these type of movies, it's purely entertainment, no deep thought required.