Remember that Baine broke Oaths to the Horde even before the rebellion

[Verdugo]

Can you please provide the sources where you draw those conclusions from? Because I don't think your sources might be so clear on that. I want the exact wording, where this was stated. Because I don't think this is true.

Funny, meanwhile your sources boil down to "I feel tauren are supposed to be like this".

[Super Dickmann]

Can you please provide the sources where you draw those conclusions from? Because I don't think your sources might be so clear on that. I want the exact wording, where this was stated. Because I don't think this is true.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Blood_Oath_of_the_Horde

Like the tauren, Forsaken, trolls and blood elves, so too do the taunka need a leader born of their own blood.

I give to you something familiar - the blood oath of the Horde.

Take the oath to Roanauk Icemist and initiate him into the Horde as leader of the taunka.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/12405830492

The oath that the Darkspear chieftain implores the heroes to make to him is a personal one. The Blood Oath of the Horde binds its warriors to the warchief

As regards people calling Baine a traitor and him and Vol'jin vouching for Garrosh being legally able to kill Vol'jin because his threat to Garrosh's life, those are both from War Crimes. I don't have access to the book at the moment, but I can toss you the numbers when I'm back home.

The Warchief is an absolute dictator possessing complete power. If the present Warchief, Vol'jin, passed the reins to Sylvanas, that makes her the next Warchief. She rules the Horde per the Blood Oath, because the Blood Oath imposes no obligations on the Warchief, only rights. She could dedicate the whole Horde to basketweaving and she'd still be in alignment with the Blood Oath and anyone who refused to weave would be a traitor she could legally execute.

I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.

As members of the Horde, the tauren made the Blood Oath and are subject to it. When Baine tipped off Jaina, he committed treason and Garrosh was in his rights to execute him, much like he was perfectly in his legal rights to kill Vol'jin for threatening his life. The only legal recourse is Mak'gora, which is what Cairne did. Mak'gora is also an orcish tradition, but because Cairne had made the Blood Oath and was a member of the Horde accordingly he could issue the challenge to the Warchief whereas someone without standing can't. Someone without balls can't either, which is why no one proceeded to challenge either Garrosh or Sylvanas.

[TheTaurenChieftain]

Funny, meanwhile your sources boil down to "I feel tauren are supposed to be like this".

The thing is that I cannot post any links, because I registered yesterday. Otherwise I would provide sources.
I can't post links. But you just need to go to wowwiki and search for Tauren and you can see the whole history of the Tauren summarized.

Also I play Tauren since vanilla wow and RP'ed my Tauren since then. If you ever played a Tauren from level 1 to 120 or played WC3 you know your Tauren culture. Every quest text ingame is proof for what I am saying. And if you don't believe me, look it up on wowwiki.

The thing is that what I am saying can be found somewhere. Because it is in every quest text or any scenario, where Tauren are present in the story. But I don't know where exactly I can find, where the Tauren agreed to a Blood Oath, where they will blindly follow any Warchief, no matter what he does.

- - - Updated - - -

The races of the horde swore their Blood Oath to Thrall. And since Mehrunes and Super Dickmann seem to get really pedantic with the
exact wording: Nowhere does it stand that Lok'Thar Ogar means you have to follow any Warchief. Most of the races joined the horde when Thrall was their true Warchief. They did their Oath to Thrall.

Nowhere does it stand that you still have to follow the next Warchief in place. Especially not when the ghost version of your Ex-Warchief mentioned that he was manipulated in turning Sylvanas into the next Warchief.

So Sylvanas isn't even a legitimate Warchief! In this case I think Ghost Vol'jin might still be our real Warchief and not Sylvanas.I don't know why does no one mention this in this kind of threads more often?

Baine communicated with our Ex-Warchiefs who appointed Sylvanas and he confirmed that he was manipulated by a dark power to appoint Sylvanas as WarChief. Baine is one of the people who now knows that some other power is trying to destroy the Horde from within. So it seems very reasonable to seek help from other allies, when the Horde is infiltrated and corrupted from within.

Sylvanas was appointed by some unknown entity and everything she had done made things worse. I have to say that I find Baine's actions understandable in this sort of context.

- - - Updated - - -

I also copied parts from the wowwiki about the Tauren relations to other races:

When the tauren first encountered the orcs of Thrall's Horde, the tauren recognized the orcs as spiritual brethren. No other race shared such a similar outlook on the world, and the shamans of both races met frequently to discuss the matters of the spirit world. The tauren allied with the orcs out of a shared vision, one of a collective of allies keeping each other well guarded. While the tauren see the orcs and trolls as potential friends to welcome, they rarely trust the Forsaken with more than a nod and a place to set their withered feet.
Tauren also bear no ill will to the members of the Alliance unless threatened by them, although they do make an exception for high elves. The taint of magic on the high elven spirit is a poisonous air to the tauren, a stench of the soul that they cannot tolerate for long. Night elves are quite the opposite; tauren sometimes view them with awe and fear. Tauren and night elves have coexisted on Kalimdor for centuries, and tauren have long seen the Kaldorei as a mythic race of demigods, possessed of great magic and steeped in natural powers.[5]

Many Tauren have been known to despise the gnomes, considering them to be very destructive and disrespectful to the natural environment.[citation needed] Due to the savage machinery created by the goblins and gnomes, the relationship between the loving Tauren and the inquisitive smaller beings has certainly been affected.

Tauren have an extremely close relationship with the orcs with whom they share a similar culture. The late Cairne Bloodhoof was also extremely close friends with Thrall.[12] They are less thrilled at the presence of the Forsaken at Thunder Bluff, who they grudgingly tolerate due to their alliance. The tauren place a strong emphasis on the value of life, and the unlife of the Forsaken stands as an affront to their beliefs.[13] There are tauren that wish to cure the Forsaken like the Elder Council.[14]

In general, however, the tauren get along with the orcs well and the trolls almost as well; there’s still a bit of distrust for the Darkspears, knowing that they only recently abandoned voodoo and cannibalism.[12]

[Nirn]

You do realise that Theramore was already established before the Horde claimed Durotar and built Orgrimmar right? Or did you miss out on that scenario in WC3? So if anything it was the Horde building a city on the door step of an Alliance strong point.

You think that a principle which can be best summarized into; "I placed a founding stone of my house a few years before you placed your founding stone for your house, therefore neither I or my house can be attacked" had any significant presence in the history of our world? Our history is a testament to the contrary, that such principle was non-existent, you could keep your house if you could defend yourself and your house from those who would take your house.

Let me make myself clear, as it appears many miss the point. Just as Theramore Isle was a significant military threat to the Horde, and therefore a legitimate target, so is Orgrimmar a significant military threat to the Alliance, greatly to Theramore Isle, and therefore a legitimate target. I am merely point out the facts of basic real-life geopolitics and how they would be applicable to Azeroth and its various political entities.

[Mehrunes]

I find it impressive that you present quote after quote and he keeps digging out his "opinions". I commend you on your commitment powerouge.

This is sad even for you. Here:

“Something is wrong,” Sylvanas murmured. “But I cannot put my finger on precisely what.”
The priestess had said something to Vellcinda that had the Prime Governor agitated. No one else on the field seemed to notice. They were too busy taking strolls with their loved ones.
And that was it.
“They’re defecting,” Sylvanas snapped.
Nathanos was instantly alert, scanning the field with his spyglass. “Several of them are moving in the direction of Stromgarde Keep,” he confirmed, “but that may not be intentional.”
“Let’s find out,” Sylvanas said. She lifted the horn to her lips and blew three long, clear notes.
Now to see who comes when called—and who breaks and runs.
At that moment, one of the priests returned, urging her bat to go as quickly as it could. She looked shocked and sickened.
“My lady!” she gasped. “The priestess—I didn’t recognize her until her hood fell off—I can scarce believe it—”
“Spit it out,” Sylvanas snarled, her body taut as a bowstring.
“My lady—it’s Calia Menethil!”
Menethil.

The name was laden, heavy with meaning and portent. It was the name of the monster who had made her. Who had slaughtered and destroyed. It was the name of the king who had ruled Lordaeron. And it was the name of that king’s daughter—his heir.
And to think she had thought the king of Stormwind an ingenuous fool. He played politics better than she could possibly have imagined.
Anduin Wrynn had brought a usurper with him. And now, that girl, that damned human child who ought to be long dead, was taking Sylvanas’s own people to join the Alliance.
“My lady, what are your orders?”

Anduin heard the sound of the horn. Baffled, he looked down, trying to ascertain what had caused it. As far as he could see, nothing had changed from a moment—
He pressed his lips closed to prevent a groan from escaping. There was sudden deep, dull pain inside him.
“What’s wrong, son?” Genn asked sharply.
“It is the bell,” Velen said somberly, sadly. Turalyon looked confused, but Greymane’s face went hard. He knew about the bell. About the warning it meant to his young king.
“The retreat,” Anduin managed, grimacing as the pain increased. “It’s dangerous.” A second pain struck Anduin, different but even more devastating to him. For this was not the bone-hurting ache of the Divine Bell’s handiwork but the knife-sharp pain of a dream shattering before his eyes. With a sick jolt, Anduin saw that the tiny figures who had stood at attention on Thoradin’s Wall were now mounted on bats and flying toward the field.
Dark rangers.
“It’s over,” he whispered, and leaned on the parapet. “Get them to safety before it’s too late!”

On the field below, spread out like markers in the map room, were other tiny figures. Some of them were heading back toward Thoradin’s Wall. Some were returning to the keep.
And some still stood in the field as if paralyzed.
The pain wasn’t abating, and Anduin clenched his jaw against it as he looked back at the wall. He forced his fisted hands to open and lifted the spyglass.
His mind saw things with a strange, swift clarity, and he immediately picked out Archbishop Faol and Calia. The former was close to the wall, urging his charges to rush through the gates to safety. But Calia stayed in the field, arguing with Elsie Benton. The priestess’s hood was down.
Calia…what are you doing?
Calia turned away from the Prime Governor, ran forward a few paces, cupped her hands around her mouth, and shouted, “Forsaken! I am Calia Menethil! Head for the keep!”
“What is that girl doing?” shouted Genn.
But Anduin was not listening. His gaze was riveted on the pair of women in the field, one human, one Forsaken, and at that moment Elsie Benton dropped like a stone with a black-fletched arrow protruding from her chest.

Unlike @Powerogue I quoted the entire relevant text supporting what I said and not cherry-picked sentences. In Sylvanas' perspective between Sylvanas sounding the horn and her giving the orders to the Dark Rangers to kill the defectors she's interrupted by the returning priest informing her on Calia. Given how learning about Calia, which happened only after sounding the horn, is likely to have caused the severity of Sylvanas' reaction in the first place, the only way Elsie would have died instantly would have been if Sylvanas' Dark Rangers are fucking infinite dragons and they moved back in time to carry out their orders.

From Anduin's perspective we see a gap between the horn and Dark Rangers even departing from the Thoradin's Wall in the first place, because as we saw earlier from Sylvanas' perspective, she was busy talking with the priest. At the start he was completely confused because literally nothing changed from before. We see some of his squad talking about the situation in the meantime. And then there's another gap between the Dark Rangers' departure and Elsie dying.

Would you look at that, the book says exactly what I said it says. Who'd have thunk. "Opinions" my ass. So I commend you on making shit up in order to get a gotcha that completely fucking failed. While not even addressing my post directly, hoping I wouldn't see your BS.

[Syegfryed]

Funny thing is, when vol'jin became warchief, im pretty sure i read an interview saying they were "proud" of how the horde was becoming this shithole, that we had a troll warchief and they would want to fuck up even more so every race would assume the leadership too eventually(cause diversity)

And we had a troll, an undead+elf, leaving taurens and goblins as options, They will not do goblins obviously, no matter how hard they push the diversity thing, they will not let a comic relief race lead something

so... taking by this thread, i bet ya'll gona like our new warchief Baine right?

[Mehrunes]

So you're clearly on Sylvanas's side with this: That the Horde has no principles that matter except fealty to the Warchief, and anyone who thinks otherwise should die.

That Baine, in believing that those principles matter more than strict loyalty, is absolutely a traitor who needs to be executed. Saurfang too, for the same reason.

I'm with the Horde on this. Because unlike you, I actually know how its constructed. It's an absolute military dictatorship that gives comical levels of power to the Warchief. No one forced the Tauren to accept it. They were free to thank Thrall by establishing mutual trade or a loose alliance, not become a member with all the baggage it entails.

And don't put words in my mouth just because you ran out of arguments. They are free to believe whatever they want. What they are not free to do is to take action against the Horde or team up with the Alliance. The former is merely a difference of opinion, the latter is treason. Because *gasp* words mean things and what Baine and Saurfang did (not merely thought) meets the criteria of treason.

That, without any moral compass, any and all war crimes ordered by the Warchief are acceptable for any reason, and the enemy does not deserve sympathy, compassion, or any pursuit of peace, in any context.

The Alliance does not deserve sympathy precisely because of the context. Alliance proved time and time again that they can't stop themselves from attacking the Horde. Even during the demon apocalypse threatening the entire universe. Alliance is a rabid dog and rabid dogs get put down. If Baine can't handle it he should have left the Horde and joined the Alliance as he was always Alliance at heart anyway. And then die with his boiking.

The opposite extreme to Baine in every form, which obviously explains why you single him out so much.

Again, stop making shit up. If I single Baine out, it's because his commitment to Alliance sycophancy committing treason goes beyond that of those like Saurfang. That's all.

Why frame disobedience as "mere disagreement" now? Were the High Elves who refused to eat mana-wyrms merely disagreeing? Or those who remained BEs and were brainwashed for their outspokenness? Those who were exiled by Baine did so because they did not intend to obey their leader's strategy, and the passage you quoted cites examples of those who were kicked out in light of Baine's decision not to fight, so extrapolating to say that Baine exiled people who disagreed about other topics is biased I'd say without further evidence. Seems to me that other leaders would have stepped in had he gone too far with a public exile, Garrosh in particular would have wasted no time in calling out a weak leader in his eyes.

Because you made the disobedience up and the book explicitly talks about the Tauren that disagreed with Baine? I'm not sure how many times it needs to be repeated. And where are you seeing this supposed extrapolation on my part? Because it's not in my actual posts. I made no remarks about the topics of disagreement one way or another. And if you want to make a false equivalence, at least brush the parts that make it false under the carpet. It still wouldn't be an argument, but at least you could pretend it to be for a while. Because a refusal to follow isn't just a disagreement, is it now?

As for Malkorok, help yourself to his antics. He was Garrosh's right-hand man and was never stopped in his quest to root out dissenters with any means, to say nothing of Garrosh himself tossing the Trolls in a ghetto because Vol'jin didn't lick his boots. The bombing was but one example amongst several.

I'm perfectly aware of Malkorok's antics. Thank you very much. That he was an overzealous twat that tried to appease his master isn't something I denied at any point. But, again, Baine himself argued him being an overzealous twat who went out of his way to silence dissent all on his own without Garrosh's knowledge or approval. Which is supported by a "mysterious" absence of Garrosh anywhere during those antics on that page. I wonder why.

Likewise, Baine himself argued that Vol'jin was so monumentally traitorous since before Cataclysm that Garrosh had all the right in the world to simply execute him. So trying to frame Vol'jin and the Trolls as simply "Vol'jin not licking Garrosh's books" is whitewashing of Vol'jin even in eyes of the limp-wristed elements of the Horde.

Length of pages? What, you think the people at the Gathering have flying mounts in their pockets? It takes them time to come back, too long for Sylvanas, she has them all killed including the confirmed loyalists amongst them just to be sure, and even Nathanos goes WTF at it. That's the chain of events, it's ambiguous enough to justify Sylvanas in a sort of pragmatic way but let's not act as if it's also not a ruthless culling of any and all potential dissenters.

Yeah, no. I already quoted the relevant pages in their entirety in my reply to @Minikin above. Elsie's death isn't nearly as instantaneous as @Powerogue tried to present it as, as seen from two different perspectives. And your bit about flying mounts is irrelevant nonsense because the loyalist in question, as clearly seen from Anduin's perspective (or hell, even her own perspective), was simply standing in place talking with Calia. So there's no question of it taking time to come back, as she hasn't began to do that at all.

So yes, length of pages. Because those pages weren't goddamn blank and there were other events happening in the meantime because that's how books work. And events tend to take time. So if there were events taking time between Sylvanas sounding the retreat and Elsie's death, then there was a passage of time between the two. Because that's how time works, in turn. Making them not instantaneous. And, as already noted above, Elsie was still standing in the same place and still talking with Calia after all that time between the two events have passed. I have not a slightest clue which part of the above was even remotely confusing, but here you go.

It's getting late here so I won't get into an endless back in forth any longer. My position is that Baine was wrong to exile his people, but that it is not that much an abuse of authority compared to other shit that happened in the Horde. Most of all it's one event that is, in-story, never treated as significant by any means but every single thread where Baine is even named devolves into crying about it ad nauseum. It gets grating as fuck to be honest.

No one even really called it an abuse of authority to begin with though.

She burned that tree because Malfurion survived.

Who'd take effort to actually read A Good War when you can peddle falsehoods instead though?

You both are always talking about the Blood Oath. But the Lok'Tar Ogar and Blood Oath only belong to Orc culture.

You mean the oath that's explicitly called the most fundamental law of the Horde only belongs to the Orcs? Wat?

Baine is not subjected to any Blood Oath whatsoever. He is only subjected to his own people and what is best for him. And I think he acts in their best interest.

I don't remember the Tauren commiting to a Blood Oath. I don't remember the Bloodelfs committing to any Blood Oath. And in the end I also don't remember the Undead commiting to any Blood Oath.

Sylvanas had people swear to her during Vol'jin's BBQ (and the allied races as they joined).

Where did the Tauren agree to: "I will follow every horde leader to the death without questioning anything at all and doing horrible crimes for the Horde even though they conflict with Tauren culture"?

When they joined the Horde? Even putting the oath aside for a moment, joining an international organization entails following its rules. Especially if the organization in question is an absolute military dictatorship.

The races of the horde swore their Blood Oath to Thrall. And since Mehrunes and Super Dickmann seem to get really pedantic with the
exact wording: Nowhere does it stand that Lok'Thar Ogar means you have to follow any Warchief.

Lok'tar Ogar doesn't mention anything about Warchiefs to begin with...

Most of the races joined the horde when Thrall was their true Warchief. They did their Oath to Thrall.

Nowhere does it stand that you still have to follow the next Warchief in place.

Except the Oath talks about simply the Warchief and the Horde. Not "the current Warchief at the time of me making the oath". Making it a usage of the term in an institutional meaning.

Especially not when the ghost version of your Ex-Warchief mentioned that he was manipulated in turning Sylvanas into the next Warchief.

So Sylvanas isn't even a legitimate Warchief! In this case I think Ghost Vol'jin might still be our real Warchief and not Sylvanas.I don't know why does no one mention this in this kind of threads more often?

Except Sylvanas was appointed by Vol'jin and received the oath from the rest of the Horde. Nowhere in the oath is it stated that the legitimacy of the Warchief's position rests on the mental state of the person making the appointment. Only the new Warchief receiving the oath from their new subjects matters. Vol'jin sucking at being Shadow Hunter is his problem. Sylvanas is as legitimate as the laws of the Horde allow her to be.

Baine communicated with our Ex-Warchiefs who appointed Sylvanas and he confirmed that he was manipulated by a dark power to appoint Sylvanas as WarChief. Baine is one of the people who now knows that some other power is trying to destroy the Horde from within. So it seems very reasonable to seek help from other allies, when the Horde is infiltrated and corrupted from within.

Baine doesn't even know what that power is, let alone what it intends to do.

Sylvanas was appointed by some unknown entity and everything she had done made things worse. I have to say that I find Baine's actions understandable in this sort of context.

Good thing then that his "actions" started before that questline then...

You do realise that Theramore was already established before the Horde claimed Durotar and built Orgrimmar right? Or did you miss out on that scenario in WC3? So if anything it was the Horde building a city on the door step of an Alliance strong point.

But @Nirn made no remarks about the timeline of things one way or another... They only said that Theramore is a major port next to the Horde capital.

[Niwes]

Yeah, Baine is not a great leader. But neither are the rest of Horde leaders. At this point I don't know why the Horde even exists as a political entity. All of its members are at each other's throats. Please Anduin, dismantle the Horde and absolve me of my sins.

yeah. the great tribal/council based horde, with a feeling of refugees triying to survive and find a new home (orcs, forsaken, etc), based on strength and honor (lets call it thralls and cairnes horde) ... is faaaaaar faaaaaaaaaaar away from what blizz made out of that horde.

lets look at these great leaders of our nowadays horde:

- gallywix, a fat bastard only interested in profit, regardless who dies and how.
- sylvanas, a hatred war bitch, mass murdering for personal interests or emotions.
- baine, a complete douche bag character, that was like „ok.“ when his father was killed.
- no troll leader
- no orc leader
- lorthemar, an ok‘ish guy but a relatively flat char, 90% not existing in story and mostly blood elves focused.
- pandas, not much to see from them. i even cant remember their „lead“ on horde side.

yeah, these are the great leaders of the great new horde. or like blizz call them: The „evils“ (since red tshirt guys these days obviously playing the plain simple evil guys because bad story telling want so).

great times....

[Kithelle]

Yet somehow that mad woman Christie Golden tries telling us something about him being the best the Horde has to offer. It is a shame how pathetic this faction has becoming since human potential and bad writing are in full swing.

But I thought Sylvanas being a homicidal life and hope hater was cool and awesome? Where are all the people who were drooling over Sylvanas six months ago? Where are the people who wanted death and destruction?

[justandulas]

Sylvanas and garrosh about the only members of the horde I respect or follow. I play dh and warlock. Evil classes incarnate that would never work with thrall or Baine. I’d rather delete than serve under Baine the traitor.

[Mrbleedinggums]

Yet somehow that mad woman Christie Golden tries telling us something about him being the best the Horde has to offer. It is a shame how pathetic this faction has becoming since human potential and bad writing are in full swing.

Christie Golden reminds me of this one terrible DM when I first played D&D who absolutely hated anyone who played elves, loved anyone who played dwarves, and forbid anyone from playing anything remotely evil in his campaigns. He forced your characters to always try to be some paragon of justice and honor with "mi'lady" (yes he was a neckbeard with a fedora) and it was so horrendously annoying.

That's what Golden is doing with her obsession on trying to do the same thing. A good writer knows how to create characters that represent the best, but know how to do so without being blatantly biased. That's why I loved GoT, Ned Stark and Jon Snow are both bastions of honor but they're not perfect in any regard.

[Zulkhan]

The wall was also a ghastly failure that Theramore forces were besieging. Only Bloodhilt and the tauren from Vendetta Point (that got exiled later for self-defense) were the ones to prevent the wall from falling and the Alliance from entering Mulgore.

I wouldn't say the wall was a failure as much as Bloodhilt's predecessor was. The wall, by its nature, could only passively push back invaders for a realistically limited amount of time and we can say that it reached its purpose, to an extent. Still, the Horde army had to do something obviously and the Horde commander was indeed guilty of not doing anything at all, leaving the Tauren of Vendetta Point alone, until Bloodhilt didn't gain control of the whole situation.

- - - Updated - - -

Are you still harping on that? You're wrong, just like you were wrong the last time or the first time you tried to push this nonsense.

To think that I spent entire pages dismantling that idiocy piece by piece back then. What a waste of time.

[Mehrunes]

I wouldn't say the wall was a failure as much as Bloodhilt's predecessor was. The wall, by its nature, could only passively push back invaders for a realistically limited amount of time and we can say that it reached its purpose, to an extent. Still, the Horde army had to do something obviously and the Horde commander was indeed guilty of not doing anything at all, leaving the Tauren of Vendetta Point alone, until Bloodhilt didn't gain control of the whole situation.

An important thing to note is also that the wall was wooden. Sure, it was pretty tall and thick, but for the plethora of fire sources, be it magical or technological, available to Azerothian races in war *cough* interzone catapults at Darkshore *cough* it's actually sort of a miracle it stood firm. Well, either that or complete incompetence on the part of besieging Alliance forces.

[Minikin]

loads of useless info

Yea only took you a thousand posts and getting called out to do so, while @Powerogue did it from the start.

I'd try to take you seriously but you don't even know what a consumer means still.

[DotEleven]

She burned that tree because Malfurion survived.

No, it was after the night elf spoke back to her. They had already gained control of Teldrassil. Then a night elf told her that she can kill them but she can't kill hope. So she turned the night elf's head and told them to burn it.

She literally burned Teldrassil because of ONE night elf.

Hell, she even says herself after she didn't expect the outcome. It was meant to capture an enemy's home.

[Mehrunes]

Yea only took you a thousand posts and getting called out to do so, while @Powerogue did it from the start.

"Loads of useless info"? That "useless info" is precisely on point. Point that you personally contested. So just lol at your desperate argument-avoidance combined with pretending you're right regardless right here. Also, penultimate post in a discussion is by no means a "start".

And you're moving the goalposts to save face. Regardless of when I quoted the book your accusations that I'm merely presenting my opinions are not only unfounded, they were just flat out false. As I just proved with "loads of useless info". Meaning your attempt at saving face is as effective as your accusations were to begin with. Which is not much.

But since you didn't have it in you to direct them at me personally in the first place and instead you were talking about me with other users, of course you are only digging your hole deeper instead of admitting that you pulled the claim of me merely presenting my opinions out of the nether.

I'd try to take you seriously but you don't even know what a consumer means still.

WTF are you even talking about at this point? Are you by any chance referring to the thread in which you made a brilliant argument how working at Audi makes you an authority on the opinion-based (i.e. subjective) concept of trends? EDIT: Looks like I was right. Haven't read it before to preserve my faith in humanity. Reading it now had the expected result.

[Powerogue]

Would you look at that, the book says exactly what I said it says. Who'd have thunk. "Opinions" my ass. So I commend you on making shit up in order to get a gotcha that completely fucking failed. While not even addressing my post directly, hoping I wouldn't see your BS.

I had the same book in front of me the entire time, and read the exact same section, so your rants are changing nothing. For goodness sake man are you not going to let it go until you've literally quoted pages 1-281 to prove a point about Sylvanas on a thread that's about Baine?!

The only reason it's even relevant is that you proved yourself wrong in your own quote

They are free to believe whatever they want.

As Sylvanas murders the forsaken who ran for the wall. Who did not act with any dissent, but merely might, possibly, in the future, due to not being as "desolate" and hopeless as she is.

And even that is only loosely relevant, as you pointed out, Baine did not only think with dissent, but acted upon it, and Sylvanas did not penalize him until he did so. The only reason I have sympathy for his position at this point is that Sylvanas should have known, as Baine has made it loud and clear, that he would not stand for this sort of thing again after Garrosh, and she did it anyway. She's not stupid, she's manipulative, pushing characters like Baine and Saurfang away from the Horde with her actions. So, as Killian so amusingly put it in his video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf1ZrnumZQQ
"Our moral compass is incarcerated; we can now do whatever we want!"

So yes, Baine and Saurfang are traitors, who were forced into a situation By Sylvanas, intentionally where they had to, as Saurfang puts it, "choose between honor and loyalty."

So indeed, if morals do not matter to the Horde as a faction, they should die. If they do, they need protected. That's the dilemma that the whole War Campaign is centered on.

[RoKPaNda]

I actually registered just to answer to this reply. I was always browsing MMO-C forums before, but I never commented on anything. But because I saw many threads about Baine being a traitor etc. I also wanted to give my opinion on this topic.

You say "No wonder why virtually only Alliance players like Baine...". I don't think this is true. Not only Alliance players like Baine. Tauren players like Baine too. Also everyone who is a fan of the old horde likes Baine. The only people I see hating Baine on the official forums or anywhere else are always Undead or Bloodelf players (Or Warlock or Rogue players) who talk about betrayal etc.

I wonder if any real Tauren players really see it this way. I think most of the Tauren players are very much on Baines side.

Also these people always mention Camp Taurajo and Baine being a traitor to his people. But I don't think most of the real Tauren players see it this way. I very often do Tauren RP and if you know Tauren Lore, Baines actions are very consistent to Tauren Culture. He acts exactly the way a Tauren would act. Tauren Culture is all about balance and peace as well as caring for nature. For most Tauren players Baine is their Chieftain and not a traitor. I agree that Baine could be written better as a character. But his morals and actions very much resemble Tauren culture.



I also have to disagree with Nirn here. The Grimtotem Tribe were the ones who poisoned Cairne. These are the real traitors. I don't think the current Tauren would follow someone of the Grimtotem Tribe. If you want Grimtotem leaders, you don't want the actual Tauren who formed the Horde anymore. You want Garrosh Kor'kon 2.0 instead.

Tauren are one of the lesser played Horde races. The most played horde race is Bloodelf. So no wonder why you see so many posts about Baine's "betrayal". Even though the Lor'themar also betrays Sylvanas. But it seems like most Bloodelf players like Sylvanas more than their actual leader.

Sometimes I am a little bit sick of Bloodelf-, Undead-, Nightborne- etc. players telling me about how I as a Tauren should view my Chieftain. I think he does his job very well and represents what Tauren are about. And it is always players of any other race other than the Tauren which bring up Taurajo. If you know your Tauren Lore you know why Baine's actions are consistend with Tauren culture.

Baine is the perfect leader of the Tauren, because he represents exactly what Tauren are about. Anything else would be Sylvanas 2.0 or Garrosh 2.0.

I still agree that he could be better written and I also think there should be more Tauren lore. But still, his actions represent exactly what Tauren would do.

But not everything has to do with Blizzards bad writing. Even with good writing Baine and the Tauren would still behave peaceful and they would still take similar actions. Good writing would maybe add more complexity to the characters. But still, Tauren would be peaceful. It wouldn't be consistent with Tauren Culture to seek vengeance. It also wouldn't be consistent to blindly follow Sylvanas. You can't simply make Mulgore Tauren not behave like Mulgore Tauren. Otherwise they would be Grimtotem Tauren. And the Grimtotem Tauren where those who cowardly poisened Cairne so that he looses the battle against Garrosh.

It would be even more shitty writing to make every horde race blind Sylvanas followers. At least the actions of Baine are somewhat consistent to his character and Tauren Culture.

Pretty much every alt that I've had has been tauren and for years my main was a tauren. Tauren is probably my favorite WoW race though Orcs are close behind. I can't stand Baine. From the minute that they gave him any kind of spotlight he's been annoying. If they loaded him up with plate and booted him off a ship I don't think most players would even miss him.

[Cobman]

Meh guys freedom is one of the most important virtues of new horde, their whole deal is being free of demons etc and so on, its ok when characters choose their own moral compass to act against archaic warchief who is doing some bad shit, but the problem is that baine is new vol'jin to sylvanas' garrosh thing. Story feels reused and old. It's not out of character for Baine to act as he is right now.

[Nirn]

The Horde is fundamentally a state of being, one that was forged through the crucible of blood and tears of Orcs as they fought against the enemies that inhabited the world of Draenor. To survive in such conditions, Orcs created a highly militarized, self-disciplined and pragmatic society. Honorable, but pragmatic. A Orc yells "Lok'tar ogar! before he or she charges into the battle and people automatically conclude that this species nurtures kamikaze tendencies. This is a profound misunderstanding of a Orc mindset. They are fine with the retreat in a single battle, for they are indeed a pragmatic people. They are not fine with the very idea of losing a war, for to them in Draenor this meant slavery to other races and a spiritual and moral subjugation.