Rogues should have Gouge

[shoegazing]

People would complain too much sadly, many think rogues are broken right now. But the only way gouge comes back is if other classes get stuff back. Sadly, even after all the pruning, rogues still have one of the largest toolkits in the game.

We are not arguing for Rogue changes in isolation. The entire game needs unpruning.

And Subtlety needs to have Dance uptime reduced back to what it was in WoD and prior. We have way too much access to Cheap Shot, nobody asked for this. It will be compensated in other ways.

[coblade14]

I disagree. I think specs need to have different utilities in order to be different. I don't want the specs to be 'just the same rogue with different rotations'. I think the specs should bring different utilities and strengths to the party. IMO they should've given the shroud to sub rogues only, in order to balance the 3 specs out a little bit.

[Lodravel]

I disagree. I think specs need to have different utilities in order to be different. I don't want the specs to be 'just the same rogue with different rotations'. I think the specs should bring different utilities and strengths to the party. IMO they should've given the shroud to sub rogues only, in order to balance the 3 specs out a little bit.

Shroud is irrelevant for anything other than M+.
And I think there should be a balance between class-based utility and spec-based utility. Enough of the former to have a common denominator, enough of the latter to differentiate. They went a little overboard in Legion in that regard. Too much emphasis on unique specializations at the expense of a class identity. In the end, the only thing all rogue specs shared were energy, leather, stealth, and sap. Compared to what was before, that is too little.

[pay928]

Shroud is irrelevant for anything other than M+.

It's not irrelevant but it's not exactly vital. Other niche use cases:

• Questing with a group in a cave, you shroud up then train the mobs out
• Start of a raid boss pull, all of the melee are able to get significantly closer to increase initial dps
• Could be used to skip raid trash if group is coordinated enough

[Polarthief]

Yeah and it was especially bad when we didn't even have blind there for a while. I guess gouge is a little less important now that nothing really has positional requirements but it was still nice for hitting the pause button on someone and getting some energy back or slowing down a second target trying to jump into the fight.

- Or hard CC-ing something that has a long ass cooldown/only casts once (countless cases in M+).
- Or a pseudo-interrupt when the entire group is out of interrupts (happens all the time).
- Or yeah also hitting the pause button.

It's an insanely useful, underrated, utility spell that has massive value in M+ right now.

It's not irrelevant but it's not exactly vital. Other niche use cases:

• Questing with a group in a cave, you shroud up then train the mobs out
• Start of a raid boss pull, all of the melee are able to get significantly closer to increase initial dps
• Could be used to skip raid trash if group is coordinated enough

Questing... Irrelevant.
Start of a raid boss pull, which can help slightly. It's niche but yeah.
Skipping BoEs? Irrelevant.

[dreaderus]

why did they change the sound of cheap shot? lol so stupid

[XMD7007]

I miss:

- Gouge
- Recuperate
- Burst of Speed (!!!)

Rogue would be so much fun if these 3 would come back for all 3 specs, without taking away anything. I'd be fine if other classes would also get back everything they lost... like Deep Freeze, Nimble Brew, Death Siphon, Conversion, Pet Stun and Pet Blind for Hunters, Meta Stun, 45% Speed on Judgement ant more...

[fylth]

ALL rogues should have poisons and bleeds. Hard to think that after 100 levels 2/3 rogues 'forgot' how to use poison. These clowns don't have a clue what they are doing anymore. They just care about lame ass Overwatch

[The Stormbringer]

I really wish they'd stop splitting the specs up so much. General utility spells/abilities should be baseline across all specs

THIS! For ALL CLASSES. Jesus Christ, I hate it when they do this. For example, losing Camouflage as a BM Hunter was legit painful.

[RobertMugabe]

I miss:

- Gouge
- Recuperate
- Burst of Speed (!!!)

Rogue would be so much fun if these 3 would come back for all 3 specs, without taking away anything. I'd be fine if other classes would also get back everything they lost... like Deep Freeze, Nimble Brew, Death Siphon, Conversion, Pet Stun and Pet Blind for Hunters, Meta Stun, 45% Speed on Judgement ant more...

I don't miss recuperate at all. It was a bad and weird heal and the vial is so much better.

Burst of Speed was great... too great and thus it was removed for a good reason.

[Powerogue]

It was totally useless when you had poisons and bleeds though, it would last a second at most. I didn't even bother keybinding it.

[Sunderella]

i miss my bars looking like this:



Those were the days

[Lodravel]

i miss my bars looking like this:



Those were the days

I spy, with my beady, greedy eyes, another goblin rogue.

Good choice. Arguably the only one there is, if you consider taste!

[Battlebeard]

I think we should have more speed instead. Somehow, I find Rogue one of the slowest classes there are right now. As Assassination, we got sprint and that's it. Sure, there is shadowstep, but that is very situational, and require someone near you. And both that and Sprint has too long cooldown.

I miss burst of speed every day

[shoegazing]

I think we should have more speed instead. Somehow, I find Rogue one of the slowest classes there are right now. As Assassination, we got sprint and that's it. Sure, there is shadowstep, but that is very situational, and require someone near you. And both that and Sprint has too long cooldown.

I miss burst of speed every day

Burst of speed isn't a classic and iconic Rogue ability that existed since day 1, it was a bad ability designed specifically with bad players in mind as its target audience, and it has no business being discussed further in this thread

[Ferg]

Burst of speed isn't a classic and iconic Rogue ability that existed since day 1, it was a bad ability designed specifically with bad players in mind as its target audience, and it has no business being discussed further in this thread

he didn't even mention bos

[Ange]

Gouge was needed with the " standing behind the target" requirement for your major damage dealing ability.

With the current spec iterrations its a free additional CC without any disadvantage. It is allready problematic for outlaw in M+ since it breaks the utility comparison to ever other class in game right now.

Outlaw will pay in 8.2 for the situation right now, do you want all rogue specs punished for really bad game balance, because thats what you are asking for.

[Raven]

Hunter should be only a ranged class.
DPS classes shouldn't be able to heal.
HEAL classes shouldnt be able to do damage.

Yeah there are things in this game which I can't understand.

Funny since those changes was made after many years and tears from the players.

[Irian]

I feel the same way when playing my rogue. It feels like such an iconic ability, and what's funny is that I feel like Blizzard gave it to the only rogue spec I almost never used it on.

I'd give up other CC to have it back because it was unique and interesting. I understand that rogues have too much CC and I kind of agree that it's a problem but I think it's more of a "treating the symptom rather than the disease" problem with WoW. When most classes aren't good at anything anymore, rogue stands out as the class that's still good at something.

[Zensunni]

I agree, roguess should have gouge. But if you just gave it back to them, they'd be even more OP, so they'd have to lose shroud or something. In the current state of the game, rogues are just head and shoulders above all over melee dps. The only time you take something other than a rogue for a melee slot is a.) niche utility or b.) whichever melee has temporary OP dps. In lieu of these reasons, all you see is rogues. To give them back gouge on top of their current supremely powerful kit would be adding insult to injury to classes like warrior, for example.

So while I agree rogues should have gouge, I completely understand why they don't.