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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Absolutely not. Skinning does not refer to in-game skins. That's called texturing. Not even the process of making a mesh suitable for projecting a 2D texture map on to is called "skinning", instead it's called unwrapping.

    Skinning refers to weighting the vertices to the appropriate bones in a way that gives a suitable or agreeable result.
    And since they're called skins in colloquial use, applying them is also called skinning.

    Add to that not everybody using the same technical terms and you've got a fine mess.

    I'd strongly suggest adjusting language to the enviroment here. This clearly isn't a technical 3D modeling forum, so you should generally assume people aren't using the technical terms accurately. Trying to correct them is neither sensible nor fruitful use of time.


    That aside, you can animate models without skeletons. It's just not something people do nowadays because it takes far more work and doesn't look as good when everything has to be adjusted manually.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    And since they're called skins in colloquial use, applying them is also called skinning.

    Add to that not everybody using the same technical terms and you've got a fine mess.

    I'd strongly suggest adjusting language to the enviroment here. This clearly isn't a technical 3D modeling forum, so you should generally assume people aren't using the technical terms accurately. Trying to correct them is neither sensible nor fruitful use of time.


    That aside, you can animate models without skeletons. It's just not something people do nowadays because it takes far more work and doesn't look as good when everything has to be adjusted manually.
    If we're talking 3D technical terms, which we are in this thread, there is only one type of skinning. Hell, there is only one type of skinning, period.

    There is no need to beat around the bush with that by saying "Yes, but in-game texture swaps are also called skins!" Yes, that's true, but that doesn't make it "skinning." Since the poster I replied to tried to correct the OP by very specifically proclaiming that skinning referred to texture swapping, he's just plain wrong.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    If we're talking 3D technical terms, which we are in this thread, there is only one type of skinning. Hell, there is only one type of skinning, period.
    Tell that to a 3d-modeling hunter/butcher.

    And the thread is ultimately about whether using and insisting on the technical terms is even useful. Since the majority is unlikely to even know the proper definitions, i'm going with a clear no.
    Last edited by huth; 2019-04-28 at 11:45 AM.

  4. #24
    Well it's just MMOC, deal with it. There will always be people who will know it best, even though they've never actually read about it or went through education.

    This reminds me how in the past I've nicely explained software licensing to some people (who have never dealt with that stuff and who aren't software developers or in any way related to this matter) and as an answer I always got (indirect) insults

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    For someone who spends so much time telling other people to learn shit about 3D animation, you really should take your own advice.

    "Skinning" has fuck all to do with how a model moves.

    A skeleton is attached to a model through a process called Rigging. The model is "rigged" to the Skeleton at fixed points, so that when, for example, the Skeleton bends it's elbow, the rigged model moves in correspondence.

    "Skinning" is the process of attaching a visual appearance to the outer surface of a "model".

    The entire process for a "human model" would be:
    Human Skeleton rigged to Human Model with "Human Skin B" overlapped ontop of model.

    Changing the "Skin" gives the model a different visual "look" but does not change any of it's physical characteristics (IE, slapping a Human Female Skin on a Human Male Model is not going to give the model physical boobs, it's just going to paint the graphic for boobs onto the flat male chest).

    So yes, you CAN have models without skeletons, but they would be kind of pointless, because they would have no way of processing any form of animation (they would basically be static mannequins).
    Yes, but I don't think the OP is looking for an actual answer or explanation, you shouldn't put the effort.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Tell that to a 3d-modeling hunter/butcher.

    And the thread is ultimately about whether using and insisting on the technical terms is even useful. Since the majority is unlikely to even know the proper definitions, i'm going with a clear no.
    You still ignore the context that the person I was replying to was trying to lecture OP about 3D technical terms, while plainly getting the definition of "skinning" wrong in the process. c:

    And again, "skinning" as a term never referred to what Surfd claimed it refers to. He could get away with calling a texture a skin with the excuse that a lot of games use the term "skin" to refer to to new textures (or sometimes even models) that a player can acquire, but not the process of applying a texture "skinning." Considering he specifically mentioned "skinning" and was challenging the OP on technical grounds, Surfd was just objectively wrong, no matter how you slice it.

    Anyway, this really doesn't need to be an argument. I get your point when referring to common discourse between people who are perhaps aware of games, but not how they're developed, and will as such be familiar with different terminology. This was mainly aimed at Surfd who tried to correct somebody on technical grounds and got it wrong on said grounds.
    Last edited by Yarathir; 2019-04-28 at 01:02 PM.

  7. #27
    Someone should also take the time to explain what a meme is both in it's scientific usage and it's adopted internet usage... but I can't personally be bothered.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonneillon View Post
    Someone should also take the time to explain what a meme is both in it's scientific usage and it's adopted internet usage... but I can't personally be bothered.
    The DNA of the soul, Jack.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonneillon View Post
    Someone should also take the time to explain what a meme is both in it's scientific usage and it's adopted internet usage... but I can't personally be bothered.
    And the SCP Foundation sense, while we're at it.

  10. #30
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lialcw View Post
    I don't understand where did this meme come from.

    Skeletons control how the model is moving through a process called "skin". You can have different models with same skeletons or same skeletons with different models.

    Stop your "old models are not old models" meme.
    Except they are... If you put the protodrake skeleton on a normal dragon it will just break entirely, skeletons are VERY specific and important my dude.

    its like saying "hey lets replace this snakes skeleton with a dog skeleton... WHAT COULD GO WRONG!"

    I also love how you say the same thing twice.

    "different models with same skeletons"
    "Same skeletons with different models"
    my dude, you literally just said the same thing...
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Except they are... If you put the protodrake skeleton on a normal dragon it will just break entirely
    Not really. You can even apply skeleton of protodrake to a sphere. No problem at all.

    skeletons are VERY specific and important my dude.
    Wrong. A lot of human models just copy and paste skeleton other people made. You don't need to be specific for anything. You can just use one skeleton and different rigging for different animations.

    BTW. Skeletons skinned with WOW models are all not even standard human skeletons.

    its like saying "hey lets replace this snakes skeleton with a dog skeleton... WHAT COULD GO WRONG!"
    Nothing wrong. You can do the correct thing as long as you do the correct skinning and rigging with dog skeleton.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    You still ignore the context that the person I was replying to was trying to lecture OP about 3D technical terms, while plainly getting the definition of "skinning" wrong in the process. c:

    And again, "skinning" as a term never referred to what Surfd claimed it refers to. He could get away with calling a texture a skin with the excuse that a lot of games use the term "skin" to refer to to new textures (or sometimes even models) that a player can acquire, but not the process of applying a texture "skinning." Considering he specifically mentioned "skinning" and was challenging the OP on technical grounds, Surfd was just objectively wrong, no matter how you slice it.

    Anyway, this really doesn't need to be an argument. I get your point when referring to common discourse between people who are perhaps aware of games, but not how they're developed, and will as such be familiar with different terminology. This was mainly aimed at Surfd who tried to correct somebody on technical grounds and got it wrong on said grounds.
    You are absolutely right.

  12. #32
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lialcw View Post
    Not really. You can even apply skeleton of protodrake to a sphere. No problem at all.



    Wrong. A lot of human models just copy paste skeleton from other people made. You don't need to be specific for anything. You can just use one skeleton and different rigging for different animations.

    BTW. Skeletons skinned with WOW models are all not even standard human skeletons.



    Nothing wrong. You can do the correct thing as long as you do the correct skinning and rigging with dog skeleton.
    "To a sphere" yes a shapeless object... You cant apply a protodrake skeleton to a normal dragon.
    And literally the entire rest of this is entirely wrong.
    No you cannot shove a dog skeleton into a snake and have it turn out fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    "To a sphere" yes a shapeless object... You cant apply a protodrake skeleton to a normal dragon.
    You can.

    The reason people are making "skeleton" is that people are lazy and not willing to make models times and times again. You can even make models with animations with no skeletons.

    Skeletons in computer graphics are NOT the skeleton of the real world.

    https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electric...7F12_Lec06.pdf

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Well it's just MMOC, deal with it. There will always be people who will know it best, even though they've never actually read about it or went through education.

    This reminds me how in the past I've nicely explained software licensing to some people (who have never dealt with that stuff and who aren't software developers or in any way related to this matter) and as an answer I always got (indirect) insults
    Yeah. This is exactly the reason why the wow community sucks and why a lot of bad feedback ruins the game during these years.
    Last edited by lialcw; 2019-04-28 at 02:30 PM.

  14. #34
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lialcw View Post
    You can.

    The reason people are making "skeleton" is that people are lazy and not willing to make models times and times again. You can even make models with animations with no skeletons.

    Skeletons in computer graphics are NOT the skeleton of the real world.

    https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electric...7F12_Lec06.pdf

    - - - Updated - - -



    This is exactly the reason why the wow community sucks and why a lot of bad feedback ruins the game during these years.
    Hmmm page 20 sure does look like a skeleton from a human...

    "Embed a skeleton into a
    detailed character mesh
    • Animate “bones”
    – Change the joint
    angles over time
    – Keyframing, procedural, etc.
    • Bind skin vertices to bones
    – Animate skeleton, skin will
    move with it "

    it even literally says bones, joints, and skin...

    this is literally a fuckign skeleton my dude
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Hmmm page 20 sure does look like a skeleton from a human...

    "Embed a skeleton into a
    detailed character mesh
    • Animate “bones”
    – Change the joint
    angles over time
    – Keyframing, procedural, etc.
    • Bind skin vertices to bones
    – Animate skeleton, skin will
    move with it "

    it even literally says bones, joints, and skin...

    this is literally a fuckign skeleton my dude
    The ppt also said you can make models with animations without skeletons. Skeletons are made because people are lazy.

    Skeletons are not even mandatory.

  16. #36
    Warchief Gungnir's Avatar
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    What even is this thread?
    What the fuck am I reading?

  17. #37
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lialcw View Post
    The ppt also said you can make models with animations without skeletons. Skeletons are made because people are lazy.

    Skeletons are not even mandatory.
    Where does it say that? it literally says nothing about that.
    Tell me a page number.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Where does it say that? it literally says nothing about that.
    Tell me a page number.
    page 13-15

    Because we are Lazy...

    Animation is (usually) specified using some form of low-dimensional controls as opposed to remodeling the actual geometry for each frame

  19. #39
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lialcw View Post
    page 13-15

    Because we are Lazy...

    Animation is (usually) specified using some form of low-dimensional controls as opposed to remodeling the actual geometry for each frame
    SO something literally 99% of the industry does, is not the norm by your opinion?
    the names are a joke "because we are lazy"
    Using something that is a million times easier, and comes out with better results is not "lazy" its a joke...
    notice how it then goes on to speak pretty much entirely about the entire industry saying "animation is (usually)specified using..."
    there is animation without bones, but literally no one does it cause its just so stupidly impossible
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    it cause its just so stupidly impossible
    Not impossible.

    Just like "Make your own group" always works.

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