[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Zaktar]

And all their strategies were terrible: They wasted the Dothraki in a single pointless charge

For real, why show characters planning something if there is no plan. Just have the enemy overrun them before they're prepared. What was that charge? What in the holy name of fuck? Does dragonglass emit a cannabis-like smoke when lit?

[eschatological]

So again, you assume by a show's metric that we've seen every aspect of her training? Or that it would be illogical for an assassin to be trained to be able to sneak up on someone like that? Particularly when it's been remarked how quiet she moves in just a couple episodes prior?

But.........that's what I'm saying. Up until a couple episodes ago, there's no indication she can move silently. It isn't part of the skillset of the Faceless Men, as far as anyone knows.

This, coupled with the "modus operandi" of the Faceless Men, who often simply wore a face and walked in the front door, is suggestive that that's not how the training of the FM goes. Their goal is to hide in plain sight, not sneak up on people.

And, as a book reader, there's no indication that her training is ninja-esque in any way either. She sweeps some floors, works in the fish market, tends to the dying who come to the House of Black and White, and plays her stick game.

[Voidwielder]

Fuck this show.



Dumb and Dumber do not understand his work.

Considering the nature of Three-Eyed Raven aka Brynden Rivers in the books, his blood sacrifice ritual, willingness to torment Bran and commit foul, awful things - George's ideas are solid and nuanced.

The show is not.

[callipygoustp]

If you ignore Arya's character development, all the way back to being given Needle, her actions in this episode could be seen as unbelievable.

[PACOX]

Her methods were questionable but she WAS on the side on the living. She was just incorrect in her visions. Just like she was wrong in thinking Stannis was the lord of light. She wasnt a villain deserving of a ruthless death or something.

She experiences doubt because of her past failures and i thought it was rather nicely shown in the moment where shes reciting her prayer to ignite the wall

We know that. I think her character should have expressed the ones who were ready slit her throat. A 'I was wrong' would have been enough.

[Tekkommo]

Good episode, thought more main characters would die, which was disappointing.

Where's ma boi Ghost?

Is Rhaegal dead or injured as well?

So Dany has like no army now... I do suspect the Golden Company to betray Cersei however.

Predicted a year ago Night King would die early on in the season (well it's half way through) and was doubting myself before this episode thinking they'd take Winterfell.

I'm fine with what Arya did, but it will for certain piss a lot of people off. She's been training since season 1, and was even talented then as we saw with a bow in the very first episode.

I cringed a bit with the crypts because I really didn't want that to happen, but at least no one came out Ned's.

Lyanna Mormont had the best death, I only like her in very small doses and I did laugh when she got flung away by the giant. But hearing her bones crunch was pretty epic.

[PACOX]

To be fair, when Jon left Dany it seemed like she pretty much had that situation well in hand. Sure, after he left her dragon was swarmed by a horde of the undead...but he didn't know that. As far as leaving Sam was concerned...he was trying to get to the Night King before the Night King got to Bran....the Dragon was an unexpected speed bump along the way. Saving Sam would have been a very temporary reprieve...the only way anyone at all was going to survive that battle was if the Night King was destroyed.

He could have at least poked one walker for Sam, not just look the man in the eyes like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ sorry bro.

[RobertoCarlos]

We know that. I think her character should have expressed the ones who were ready slit her throat. A 'I was wrong' would have been enough.

She could have fucked off if she wanted. She came back to help. And did that. She doesnt need to get on her knees and beg to show shes a good person.

Shes hundreds of years old, she was probably tired of this shit and was glad to see the NK defeated and could gtg

[Kathranis]

I enjoyed most of the episode, inasmuch as it was a great spectacle, and I especially liked the Night King's march through Winterfell, but I do have complaints...

About 2/3rds of the way through the fight they did kind of lose the thread on a bunch of characters who are clearly still alive despite being piled on by mounds of wights. Sam, Jaime, and Brienne all looked like they should have been dead meat, and a few characters just seemed to completely disappear from the battle. Nevermind the TV show contrivance of little things like all the named characters being on the frontline of the vanguard, and the last to retreat, and the sole survivors.

For as many many people that died, there should have been at least a few more deaths for named characters, and inglorious ones at that. In a big battle not everyone gets to die with a heroic last stand, but everyone important in the show who died, died heroically. Just kind of annoying, and not really in the spirit of A Song of Ice and Fire if I'm being honest.

Arya killing the Night King felt super anticlimactic to me. I have no problem with her being the one to do it, really, and in fact using that dagger in particular to save Bran is quite poetic. It's just that the Night King and the other White Walkers are basically one-dimensional non-characters who didn't even take part in the battle meaningfully, and for the army of the dead to die so suddenly from a single strike really undercuts all of the tension.

A big part of me wishes that the show just had the balls to end with the dead winning. I know the more casual audiences would riot at everyone dying, but it would have been infinitely more poignant and shocking.


Obviously it would have been a bit on the nose with Endgame just hitting theaters, but I think I would have preferred seeing some timeline shenanigans with Bran, in which this original timeline did end with everyone dying (Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, etc.), but in the split second before Bran is cut down, we see that he has warged into the the past and set up his own assassination attempt, sending that Valyrian steel dagger on the path that would eventually put it into Arya's hands. Then things rewind to just before the survivors die and Arya saves the day.


Anyway, all that aside, watching the Inside the Episode, it's interesting that they say they planned for Arya to kill the Night King about three years ago, which would have been roughly when the character actually came into existence. He had previously appeared credited as the "Night's King" in season 4, but clearly at the time they hadn't solidified exactly who he was and were piggybacking off the Night's King from the books (the Thirteenth Lord Commander). Season 5 is when he and the White Walkers started to become actual characters, one-dimensional monsters though they were.

It really felt like it was something that they had come up with on their own, rather than getting the idea from George. Which, yeah, I guess makes sense, seeing as how the Night King is a show invention. This arc is therefore probably going to be one of the bigger departures from the books in terms of how things play out in the final two books.


Looking forward to the final episodes, I'll have to suspend disbelief that there are more than a few hundred soldiers still alive in Winterfell, based on how they depicted the battle. It really felt like they were down to just the last few dozen soldiers by the end of the episode. The Dothraki are gone, too, and so are many of the Unsullied. But depicting accurate numbers of soldiers in formation and in war has always been a weakness of the show.

[PACOX]

If you ignore Arya's character development, all the way back to being given Needle, her actions in this episode could be seen as unbelievable.

Her actions are no more unbelievable than the majority of the named characters walking away from the battle.

- - - Updated - - -

She could have fucked off if she wanted. She came back to help. And did that. She doesnt need to get on her knees and beg to show shes a good person.

Shes hundreds of years old, she was probably tired of this shit and was glad to see the NK defeated and could gtg

Didn't say she needed to beg anyone for forgiveness, just acknowledge some sort of accountability to the ones that wanted her dead. That's all. Least she could do knowing she was off her self anyway.

[Rawrajishxc]

Good episode, thought more main characters would die, which was disappointing.

Where's ma boi Ghost?

Is Rhaegal dead or injured as well?

Ghost and Rhaegal are alive, as they can be seen in the preview for next episode.

[Tabrotar]

I wasn't as upset with this episode until I watched the post-credits interview with the show-runners. Like none of their writing decisions are based on the mythology of the series. It seems to just be "we made this decision because we thought it would be neat".

You´re realy suprised about that comment?

Sorry but that was clear as fuck the moment they strayed away from the books ka the moment it all went to shit.

And now we have those stupid unqualified hacks directing future SW films...

[eschatological]

She was there for some time, like a year or more, we saw like maybe an hour of her training...lol. But yeh, Im sure world renowned assassins are not adept at speed and stealth. Especially a light waif of a person such as Arya. A girl who got her start learning to chase and sneak up on cats. Like do people even WATCH the show?

TIL that water dancing, a dueling style of Bravoosi masters dressed in colorful garb and fanciful flourishes, is really martial rogue training.

The cat catching is not about being stealthy. It's about being agile. That's why it's specifically a cat. You can train stealth on any creature, because all creatures are generally more aware than humans, but cats can run and jump, and turn on a dime, and squeeze into small spaces. Note: the scenes with Arya chasing cats is more about how to chase them, not how to sneak up on them.

Please, don't tell me to watch the show when you've clearly misrepresented or misunderstood the scene yourself. It's slightly embarrassing. If she was practicing stealth, she would give up as soon as the cat ran away. But in reality, the training started once the cat started running - she just tried to cheese it by getting as close as possible.

[Kellorion]

Good episode, thought more main characters would die, which was disappointing.

Where's ma boi Ghost?

Is Rhaegal dead or injured as well?

So Dany has like no army now... I do suspect the Golden Company to betray Cersei however.

Predicted a year ago Night King would die early on in the season (well it's half way through) and was doubting myself before this episode thinking they'd take Winterfell.

I'm fine with what Arya did, but it will for certain piss a lot of people off. She's been training since season 1, and was even talented then as we saw with a bow in the very first episode.

I cringed a bit with the crypts because I really didn't want that to happen, but at least no one came out Ned's.

Lyanna Mormont had the best death, I only like her in very small doses and I did laugh when she got flung away by the giant. But hearing her bones crunch was pretty epic.

There are some standing forces. Whatever is left of the Tullys. And the Seconds Sons. The House Glover forces. And the Yara Ironborn. Almost none one of them are going to show up though.

So the major dead are Ed, Ser Jorah, Ser Beric, Illyana Mormont . Anyone else? Varys isnt much needed anymore. No one of import in the crypt died.

And where was Nymeria and her pack? What was Bran greensighting or Worging that whole time?

Wonder if unofficial officially if Hodor, Jojenn, and Summer were in the army?

Emotionally drained. Not perfect, but soooo good.

[Sethus]

That battle was incredibly disappointing. Sitting in an open field in dark waiting for enemies many times your number to charge, thousands of Dothraki cavalry blindly ride into the night only to die in 10 seconds, everyone gets overrun by a generic zombie army but the main characters survive with a few scratches, just one big let down.

[callipygoustp]

Her actions are no more unbelievable than the majority of the named characters walking away from the battle.

Apples and oranges, standard fare for good ole mmoc.

[Mehrunes]

Eesh, lotta edgy keyboard warriors out in force today, most of you should probably be over on the lore forums whining about blizzards bad writing and how Sylvanas needs to win the war or the story is a complete failure.

Damn, your salt about the lore forum knows no bounds. You're even spreading your fantasies about it that don't overlap with what people actually say in it to other subforums. Sad, but not unexpected.

Faceless men training? sure, maybe not. Good thing we aren't forgetting about Syrio's water dancing training then eh?

Except Syrio's training about cats was chasing them, not sneaking up on them. Which is a difference that @eschatological covers later on. I.e. that the training was for her agility, not for sneakiness. You know, the very agility you said water dancing is about in your very next post. And since Arya explicitly says that this is what she's doing with the cats when she's explaining to Ned why she was in the dungeons in season 1, perhaps "you need to go back and rewatch the entire damn show, preferably with someone holding your hand the entire time pointing things out"?

In universe, it has been established that Arya can sneak up on people in the Snow... as she had just done so to Jon 2 episodes ago.

And in this episode it has been established that she can't sneak around the undead too effectively because they're so sensitive to sound they react even to a drop of her blood falling onto the ground.

So the major dead are Ed, Ser Jorah, Ser Beric, Illyana Mormont . Anyone else?

Theon.

[Kathranis]

Whether or not Arya put points into Improved Stealth is a stupid thing to waste time arguing about. She trained with the Faceless Men, and even though the show shit the bed with how it depicted her training, you can assume that as a trained assassin she's basically a ninja.

Dothraki charging blindly is sort of what they do, they're berserkers who overwhelm their enemies with speed and ferocity. Of all the things in this episode, I think that showing their flaming blades extinguish in the distant night is one of the better choices of writing and direction.

There are better things to complain about.

What's poorly executed was Dany's reaction. In the Inside the Episode they say that the shock of seeing "her people" get wiped out caused her to abandon the plan, which caused it to unravel. However it didn't come across that way in the show, really. The show also completely lost the thread with her connection to the Dothraki people, there is not a single important named Dothraki in the show, it's just a big army she conscripted at the dosh khaleen, almost by force.

And yeah, the named characters all being at the literal front of the vanguard, the last to retreat, and in the end being completely swarmed by mounds of wights, and yet surviving (with a few exceptions who went out with heroic last stands) is absolute Hollywood bullshit and absolutely not in the spirit of A Song of Ice and Fire as established by GRRM. But it's also completely in-line with how the show treats these things. Obviously it's disappointing, but it shouldn't be surprising.

Likewise, the complete lack of development and motivation for the Night King. Again, it took what was building up to an amazing scene and then ended anticlimactically, and somewhat conveniently. In the end Bran didn't even really do anything but sit and wait, which is also a huge disappointment. In my earlier post I outlined a way I think they could have hit the same beats while making it a lot more satisfying and making the entire show somewhat circular.

[yeshmilord]

So Arya had trouble sneaking around in the library avoiding like 3 wights but somehow got around the horde of wights, a dozen of WW-s to jump at the NK from behind.

[Valysar]

Ghost vanished ... no more budgets

But Jesus this episode, my heart was pounding