"Mythic Crucible of Storms will be just as hard as Jaina"

[ydraw]

Shadow isn't doing 30% more than every spec, they're 16.3% higher than the bottom spec(this is statistically proven with warcraftlogs overall 90th percentile Dazar'alor[looking off a single boss in the new raid is skewed and inaccurate data intake]).

No, dude. It isn't. Heroic bosses exist, there are 2 of them, and Shadow is similarly blowing other specs away. And there is plenty of data available for heroic kills. Shadow is doing 30% more than other classes in the new raid. It's going to be nerfed. Sorry.

[Zyky]

No, dude. It isn't. Heroic bosses exist, there are 2 of them, and Shadow is similarly blowing other specs away. And there is plenty of data available for heroic kills. Shadow is doing 30% more than other classes in the new raid. It's going to be nerfed. Sorry.

Heroic data is garbage, heroic literally means NOTHING and they never make sweeping changes based off heroic data. I'm not even going to debate with someone who wants to go off heroic data, must be an LFR hero lol.

[Eapoe]

Heroic data is garbage, heroic literally means NOTHING and they never make sweeping changes based off heroic data. I'm not even going to debate with someone who wants to go off heroic data, must be an LFR hero lol.

Didn’t they just nerf Shadow in a hot fix or upcoming patch because it’s damage is just too good in multidotting, spread mob situations?

[gedefudger]

Except we're already progressing the boss and learning to execute it. Are you proposing that this boss gets nerfed *this week*? Because it won't take us more than a full reset of progress to actually start seeing enrage attempts, it's *not that difficult*. It's the DPS check that's an issue. Are you saying that it's OK that the boss is not possible to do without a suite of alts for a guild that competes in the top 100, despite being able to do and progress the encounter? That seems odd to me.

You haven't even pulled the boss once, don't sit here and try BS.

[Zyky]

Didn’t they just nerf Shadow in a hot fix or upcoming patch because it’s damage is just too good in multidotting, spread mob situations?

As I said in the prior post, they're not going to nerf them AGAIN. They were nerfed in conjunction with Mythic data from Dazar'alor which is still a relevant tier.

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

Heroic data is garbage, heroic literally means NOTHING and they never make sweeping changes based off heroic data. I'm not even going to debate with someone who wants to go off heroic data, must be an LFR hero lol.

You are so clueless. They always do class tuning based on heroic week. Don't you remember:

Uldir: https://www.wowhead.com/news=289974/...alance-changes

Hunter got their 5% nerf on the day Uldir mythic was released because they were good on HEROIC, other classes got nerfs/buffs as well. Do you think these changes were based on Antorus mythic instead??

BoD: https://www.wowhead.com/news=287061/...nforge-shield-

BoD mythic week also came live with class changes based on HEROIC performance.

[ydraw]

Heroic data is garbage, heroic literally means NOTHING and they never make sweeping changes based off heroic data. I'm not even going to debate with someone who wants to go off heroic data, must be an LFR hero lol.

Specs work the same no matter what level. Heroic data is all there is at the moment. You want to ignore all the existing data and call anyone who wants to use data an "LFR hero".

- - - Updated - - -

As I said in the prior post, they're not going to nerf them AGAIN.

Yes, they are.

[Zyky]

Specs work the same no matter what level. Heroic data is all there is at the moment. You want to ignore all the existing data and call anyone who wants to use data an "LFR hero".

Heroic data is literally worthless. It means nothing because half the mechanics aren't even in the fight and they're overly easy fights in heroic, this has been true since the beginning of multiple difficulties. Normal data meant nothing when Heroic was the top difficulty, the same way that LFR data is meaningless. Yes I'm comparing LFR to Heroic data, they're both worthless when making decisions. Battle for Dazar'alor is still the current tier, Crucible of Storms is not a tier, it's not a full raid, it's a "micro" mini-raid. The data that matters is the Dazar'alor Mythic data, not the heroic data from bosses that literally fell over with zero care of mechanics or what they did.

[Fynzie]

Heroic data is literally worthless

Just stop it if you don't know what you are talking about, because you are the LFR hero here.

[Zyky]

Just stop it if you don't know what you are talking about, because you are the LFR hero here.

LOL if you say so. I've proven in many threads that I've been Cutting Edge since before Cutting Edge was a thing, now I'm currently Hall of Fame. Heroic data literally means nothing and is 100% useless, that's why not a single mediocre progression Mythic Raiding guild will go off heroic logs to tell if a player is worth their time trialing.

[KaPe]

LOL if you say so. I've proven in many threads that I've been Cutting Edge since before Cutting Edge was a thing, now I'm currently Hall of Fame. Heroic data literally means nothing and is 100% useless, that's why not a single mediocre progression Mythic Raiding guild will go off heroic logs to tell if a player is worth their time trialing.

You do realize that the amount of Mythic data you're actually getting during first week of progression is miniscule, right? You won't even get logs for the most difficult bosses during that time, nevermind having sufficient amount of information to make some reasonable changes. So it's either Heroic data or waiting for month until there's more than a handful or mythic kills.

And by that time, it is too late to have significant class changes without affecting the boss difficulty.

[Fynzie]

LOL if you say so. I've proven in many threads that I've been Cutting Edge since before Cutting Edge was a thing, now I'm currently Hall of Fame. Heroic data literally means nothing and is 100% useless, that's why not a single mediocre progression Mythic Raiding guild will go off heroic logs to tell if a player is worth their time trialing.

Yes because Blizzard care a lot about X player performing decently in a challenging environment and not at all about real class balancing, statistics and so on they gather during heroic week. It's obvious that all the time statistics from heroic week 1 and mythic week 1 are totally different.

You are confusing gauging player performance and class performance, which clearly tells you did not enter hall of fame using your intelligence.



Funny how this doesn't reflect mythic restless cabal :thinking:

[Zyky]

You do realize that the amount of Mythic data you're actually getting during first week of progression is miniscule, right? You won't even get logs for the most difficult bosses during that time, nevermind having sufficient amount of information to make some reasonable changes. So it's either Heroic data or waiting for month until there's more than a handful or mythic kills.

And by that time, it is too late to have significant class changes without affecting the boss difficulty.

As I've already stated, Battle for Dazar'alor is the current tier, not this mini "micro" 2 boss raid. The data comes from Dazar'alor which, again I'm really sick of having to repeat, is the current tier.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes because Blizzard care a lot about X player performing decently in a challenging environment and not at all about real class balancing, statistics and so on they gather during heroic week. It's obvious that all the time statistics from heroic week 1 and mythic week 1 are totally different.

You are confusing gauging player performance and class performance, which clearly tells you did not enter hall of fame using your intelligence.



Funny how this doesn't reflect mythic restless cabal :thinking:

Read above mongoloid. Really sick of having to repeat myself to you. Heroic data is NOT a representation of what's, and I quote from you:
Infracted

real class balancing

There is no class balance in heroic raiding, because it's all about who can pad the hardest and who ignores mechanics or doesn't get any. Mythic is the only accurate representation of what's overpowered or undertuned.

Oh man Boomkin is ahead of Shadow in Normal, guess we need to nerf them too right? You're actually just an idiot, who doesn't know what accurate data is.

[goriander]

There is no class balance in heroic raiding, because it's all about who can pad the hardest and who ignores mechanics or doesn't get any. Mythic is the only accurate representation of what's overpowered or undertuned.

I can only assume you haven't killed Cabal on mythic yet if you actually think shadow is only OP in heroic.

I'll list a few reasons off the top of my head:
1. boss favors ranged dps and especially multidotters
2. classes who can dispel themselves are a huge boost to overall raid dps
3. PWS + dispersion (1.5 min CD with talent) means you can live through crushing doubts at 9 stacks without relying on disc priest shields
4. 80% uptime on ToF thanks to Visage add
5. damage not reliant on cooldowns so you don't lose anything by having to hold CDs for herald buff unlike other classes

I'm not saying shadow or any other class should get nerfed based on its performance on one boss but only a fool would deny how great SP is on Cabal, there's a reason many guilds are stacking them for this fight. Guilds have already killed the boss with only two SPs and there definitely will be more kills without stacking locks/SPs but having more than a few is helpful for sure. You can wait for enough kills on WCL for this to be reflected on statistics but the damage distribution will be quite similar to heroic with SP on top.

[Zyky]

I can only assume you haven't killed Cabal on mythic yet if you actually think shadow is only OP in heroic.

I'll list a few reasons off the top of my head:
1. boss favors ranged dps and especially multidotters
2. classes who can dispel themselves are a huge boost to overall raid dps
3. PWS + dispersion (1.5 min CD with talent) means you can live through crushing doubts at 9 stacks without relying on disc priest shields
4. 80% uptime on ToF thanks to Visage add
5. damage not reliant on cooldowns so you don't lose anything by having to hold CDs for herald buff unlike other classes

I'm not saying shadow or any other class should get nerfed based on its performance on one boss but only a fool would deny how great SP is on Cabal, there's a reason many guilds are stacking them for this fight. Guilds have already killed the boss with only two SPs and there definitely will be more kills without stacking locks/SPs but having more than a few is helpful for sure. You can wait for enough kills on WCL for this to be reflected on statistics but the damage distribution will be quite similar to heroic with SP on top.

That isn't the argument being had and if you took even a minute to read through the argument being had you wouldn't have wasted your time making this redundant post that I've already known and accepted in a prior post. The boss is overtuned, this is a fact, it caters to multidotting and essentially requires it because of overtuning. I'm not arguing that Shadow isn't good or overpowered for this fight in particular, I'm saying that Heroic logs is not an accurate representation of what specs are actually performing like overall. Cabal is the ONLY fight where Shadow skyrockets out of the 11 relevant bosses currently available, it's not inappropriate to have an outlier fight where you do exceptionally well, it's only a problem when you have to stack them to meet an enrage timer. The problem at hand is that there's idiots who actually think that heroic data proves "real class balancing", where it doesn't under any circumstances.

[goriander]

That isn't the argument being had and if you took even a minute to read through the argument being had you wouldn't have wasted your time making this redundant post that I've already known and accepted in a prior post. The boss is overtuned, this is a fact, it caters to multidotting and essentially requires it because of overtuning. I'm not arguing that Shadow isn't good or overpowered for this fight in particular, I'm saying that Heroic logs is not an accurate representation of what specs are actually performing like overall. Cabal is the ONLY fight where Shadow skyrockets out of the 11 relevant bosses currently available, it's not inappropriate to have an outlier fight where you do exceptionally well, it's only a problem when you have to stack them to meet an enrage timer. The problem at hand is that there's idiots who actually think that heroic data proves "real class balancing", where it doesn't under any circumstances.

Well in multiple posts you're arguing about whether shadow should be nerfed or not and the argument about heroic logs is also made in context of shadow's performance so it is very much relevant.

The boss HP tuning/enrage timer is perfect, maybe a little bit too forgiving. You don't even have to play the damage buff 100% correctly and you'll still meet the dps check. Better guilds just have access to a wider variety of comps so on the first kills you'll see more "perfect comps" which could give you the idea that these guilds are the only ones to kill the boss because they have the perfect comp, and other guilds are not because they don't have enough shadow priests or whatever. In a week or two when lower end guilds get to killing the boss you'll see less optimal comps.

[KaPe]

The boss HP tuning/enrage timer is perfect, maybe a little bit too forgiving. You don't even have to play the damage buff 100% correctly and you'll still meet the dps check. Better guilds just have access to a wider variety of comps so on the first kills you'll see more "perfect comps" which could give you the idea that these guilds are the only ones to kill the boss because they have the perfect comp, and other guilds are not because they don't have enough shadow priests or whatever. In a week or two when lower end guilds get to killing the boss you'll see less optimal comps.

Did you seriously call Cabal enrage timer "forgiving"? Just because absurdly stacked raids didn't need perfect uptime of a damage bufff? All of which use 4+ Shadow Priest which completely dominate any other class in this fight? Just look through raid compositions on wowprogres. It might not be 100% accurate, but none of these rosters resemble "normal" melee/ranged split at all - with multiple high geared ranged alts being present for the kill.

"Lower end guilds" will not only have to contend with inferior composition, but also have a weaker performance in general. And yet they'd have to perform even better than the very top players, because gear will not help them at all. I'm pretty sure a lot of them already said "screw that, wait for nerfs".

"Too forgiving"... seriously...

[goriander]

Did you seriously call Cabal enrage timer "forgiving"? Just because absurdly stacked raids didn't need perfect uptime of a damage bufff? All of which use 4+ Shadow Priest which completely dominate any other class in this fight? Just look through raid compositions on wowprogres. It might not be 100% accurate, but none of these rosters resemble "normal" melee/ranged split at all - with multiple high geared ranged alts being present for the kill.

"Lower end guilds" will not only have to contend with inferior composition, but also have a weaker performance in general. And yet they'd have to perform even better than the very top players, because gear will not help them at all. I'm pretty sure a lot of them already said "screw that, wait for nerfs".

"Too forgiving"... seriously...

The damage buff is the most important mechanic in the fight. If you don't plan around it, you'll see pulls similar to NA guilds on the first Tuesday - hitting enrage at 25%.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...2RjQp#fight=17

Take a look at Halcyon's Cabal kill. 4 melee, 2 shadow priests, 2 locks. Boss dead at 8:08 with more than 30 seconds to play with (enrage is not an instant wipe). Promises of power uptime is pretty good but not perfect.

Our kill time with 5 healers was 8:05. Had 4 SPs and 3 locks. You never really need the 5th heal, but on our first night on the boss it was clear our dps would be far more than enough so we went with 5 healers. Could've cut the kill time by 20-30 seconds by playing more greedily with the damage buff but what's the point of risking it when you can kill it even by playing it safe.

[styil]

They should have these small raids more often. They're the perfect size and difficulty for world first races. Nice to have a 2-3 boss raid with all tough bosses rather than an 8+ boss raid where only the last one is a challenge.

[Zyky]

Well in multiple posts you're arguing about whether shadow should be nerfed

This is false, I never once argued that Shadow shouldn't be nerfed. I stated that I doubted they would be nerfed a second time within a week(which has been proven true).

heroic logs is also made in context of shadow's performance so it is very much relevant.

Heroic logs are never relevant. They are never accurate. They are never forthcoming. They're riddled with people ignoring mechanics that they can't ignore in Mythic so that they can perform better.

The boss HP tuning/enrage timer is perfect, maybe a little bit too forgiving.

As someone else already pointed out, you're insane if you think that 8:30 minute enrage on a fight that has more health than Jaina is "perfect" and "forgiving". Obviously Blizzard disagreed with you too, as they increased the enrage timer.

You don't even have to play the damage buff 100% correctly and you'll still meet the dps check.

Except you did, and you had to class stack to even reach enrage. That was a common problem with many guilds progressing last week, they were hitting enrage, with near perfect play and had to swap more classes out to fit in the stronger classes.

In a week or two when lower end guilds get to killing the boss you'll see less optimal comps.

Ya now that they nerfed the boss