[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[crusadernero]

Reading some of the responses here makes me wonder if you guys are ever happy with anything. This episode was a freaking masterpiece, I don't remember watching anything remotely close to this (in TV series at least), and Arya's kill was very satisfying, I love that it wasn't some cliche "Jon vs Night King 1v1 showdown", the show was never about cliches anyway and that's what makes it so good - and after years of developement of Arya's character, this was the right way to handle the Night King.

And if you are having troubles with the scenes shot at night being too dark then maybe you should have a check up on your eyes, because me and people I watched it with had literally 0 problems with it.

I think that alot of people are upset that the NK is dead after 1 real fight episode against him. Its been buildt up ever since the very first episode, even the very first scene, that the dead will come. It may have served as a "distraction plot" from the very beginning, but it quickly became something much more for alot of fans.

Combine that with the fact we didnt really learn more about the NK and his army, the arya move felt a bit to thin. I dont think the kill in itself is the biggest issue here, but that the fans feel that something is missing. what was the purpose of them? The NK cleary is more than a braindead zombie, you could see that from his smile after he got burned. Here I think alot would be resolved if we got something more out of Bran, but as usual we got nothing. He obviously knew what was going to happen though.

[Raelbo]

Reading some of the responses here makes me wonder if you guys are ever happy with anything. This episode was a freaking masterpiece, I don't remember watching anything remotely close to this (in TV series at least)

Agreed 100%. But then again it seems to me that MMO-C has, in general, devolved into this little echo chamber of arrogant cynics.

And if you are having troubles with the scenes shot at night being too dark then maybe you should have a check up on your eyes, because me and people I watched it with had literally 0 problems with it.

I definitely had a lot of issues seeing what was going on. It's not about my eyesight. I think the problem was with the digital compression that was being used on my streaming service being unable to cope with all the activity. Anyhow I downloaded a high res version which I'll watch tonight and will hopefully do justice to the episode. The fact that people like you managed to watch it with 0 problems gives me hope

[La]

I think that alot of people are upset that the NK is dead after 1 real fight episode against him. Its been buildt up ever since the very first episode, even the very first scene, that the dead will come. It may have served as a "distraction plot" from the very beginning, but it quickly became something much more for alot of fans.

Combine that with the fact we didnt really learn more about the NK and his army, the arya move felt a bit to thin. I dont think the kill in itself is the biggest issue here, but that the fans feel that something is missing. what was the purpose of them? The NK cleary is more than a braindead zombie, you could see that from his smile after he got burned. Here I think alot would be resolved if we got something more out of Bran, but as usual we got nothing. He obviously knew what was going to happen though.

The NK is literally death, his goal is to cover the lands in winter and wipe out all human existence. There's literally nothing he needs to say or anything we need to know when those are his motivations. In case the fact he's never spoken and his army is a bunch of mindless undead didn't sell that point already.

Most of the people's issues are the stories that were built up for specific characters over 7 seasons, and how a lot of them were just thrown out the window convenience, but people who don't really understand that kind of stuff are, of course, fine with it (which is probably most people)

[Zero3]

Like i said before the people complainig want to make GoT a generic fantasy movie.

Oh you want them to sit behind the walls and wait ( just like in LoTR) well for one, they would just make it easy for the undead dragon to roast everyone also i don't see people complaining about battle of the bastards where ramsay could have done the same and yet they fought on open ground.

Oh you wanted cliche main character snow to fight main vilain nk , you wanted melisandre ( before the episode) to come with an army and help turn the tide ( like lotr gandalf)

Oh you wanted some amazing "boss battle" with bells and whistles to end the night king? Well this is GoT the show where the "main character" Ned died first season , where we spent almost a whole season watching a dude amass an army and get snuffed out in 10 minutes ( red wedding) without even a fight , of course killing something fast and not flashy fits GoT , what show have you guys been watching?

[Sezh]

Reading some of the responses here makes me wonder if you guys are ever happy with anything. This episode was a freaking masterpiece, I don't remember watching anything remotely close to this (in TV series at least), and Arya's kill was very satisfying, I love that it wasn't some cliche "Jon vs Night King 1v1 showdown", the show was never about cliches anyway and that's what makes it so good - and after years of developement of Arya's character, this was the right way to handle the Night King.

And if you are having troubles with the scenes shot at night being too dark then maybe you should have a check up on your eyes, because me and people I watched it with had literally 0 problems with it.

A masterpiece? Jesus christ. All right, let me try to explain why I have problems with it.

- Ever since the dothraki were introduced, people in the show and us, the viewers, have asked themselves "What will they do if they win the war? They can't rape and pillage in Dany's new utopia. To solve this issue, the writers decided to solve this issue by having the cavalry charge headfirst into the enemy and just be killed off. Despite it goes against any sane military strategy, and we know that the character Tyrion and several others in the gang are supposed to be intelligent strategists. This character trait was abandonded so the writers could solve a story problem.

- The thing that made GoT special when it was based on GRRMs work was that no character was safe. Not because he liked to kill off characters for shock value, but because he wrote the world as unforgiving. If you found yourself in a situation where you are likely to die - you die. The show didn't care about which characters the audience liked or didn't like. People died as natural consequences of their actions and the actions of others. In this episode, some "beloved B characters" die, sure. But the majority live. Jaime lives, even though he's not a great fighter anymore, whilst tens of thousands are slaughtered next to him on the front lines. Would he have survived if this was real? No. Why did he? Cause the writers wanted him to. Why did Beric die? Cause the writers know "someone's got to die" so they decided he was no longer impactful. No one lived or died because of what they did, they lived or died because the writers pulled the strings behind the scenes. GRRM never did that.

- Remember the abyssmal storyline where the Avengers of Ice and Fire ventured beyond the wall? They held their own against the entire undead army for a pretty long while. They were ~10 people. Now an army of tens of thousands is obliterated within minutes. The power of the undead army is not consistent, it is used as a plot device.

- How did Arya kill the NK? We saw her power against he zombies earlier in the episode, sure she fought well against them but she has no magic tricks to use against them. And then when the NK is surrounded by hundreds of zombies and his generals, she somehow manages to sneak past them (with powers she demonstrably did not have mere 20 minutes earlier) and Mortal Kombat jump the NK and kill him? It's cheap. It's a cop out. They didn't know how to setup the kill, so they didn't even try to make it realistic.

- The whole plan. Aren't some of the worlds greatest minds gathered in this group of fighters against the dead? Was really the plan all along just to make a final stand and all die? And then whops someone luckily got the kill. They could have done so much more with it. Of course the NK would walk up to Bran when he felt he had won, but the heroes could have been aware of this. They could have constructed a plan that required enormous sacrifice to draw him out and kill him, but that didn't happen. They had no plan, they just died and died and died and then they won through luck (read; through the power or script writing).

- Why is the NK after Bran? Why does he want to kill him personally? What is his grudge against him? They tell us that NK wants him to die cause the memory of humans die with him. But why does he have to do it personally? I tell you why; because the writers don't know how else to present a scene in which he dies. And it's poor and lazy writing. I'm not saying I have the answer to what they could have done, but it feels like they just gave up even trying.

- - - Updated - - -

Like i said before the people complainig want to make GoT a generic fantasy movie.

Oh you want them to sit behind the walls and wait ( just like in LoTR) well for one, they would just make it easy for the undead dragon to roast everyone also i don't see people complaining about battle of the bastards where ramsay could have done the same and yet they fought on open ground.

Oh you wanted cliche main character snow to fight main vilain nk , you wanted melisandre ( before the episode) to come with an army and help turn the tide ( like lotr gandalf)

Oh you wanted some amazing "boss battle" with bells and whistles to end the night king? Well this is GoT the show where the "main character" Ned died first season , where we spent almost a whole season watching a dude amass an army and get snuffed out in 10 minutes ( red wedding) without even a fight , of course killing something fast and not flashy fits GoT , what show have you guys been watching?

Some of us complain because it has now become a generic fantasy movie. It didn't used to be, now it is.

[crusadernero]

The NK is literally death, his goal is to cover the lands in winter and wipe out all human existence. There's literally nothing he needs to say or anything we need to know when those are his motivations. In case the fact he's never spoken and his army is a bunch of mindless undead didn't sell that point already.

Most of the people's issues are the stories that were built up for specific characters over 7 seasons, and how a lot of them were just thrown out the window convenience, but people who don't really understand that kind of stuff are, of course, fine with it (which is probably most people)

Look, im fine with how it went down. It fits when we know what melisandre told Arya several seasons ago. Aryas story arch really hit it way up there.

I also understand that the dead didnt need any more telling than "all of us are braindead undead and only have 1 purpose". It was merley a distraction for 8 seasons to divert the focus away what really matters, who sits on the iron throne in the end. But as I said, I think alot of people just wanted more of it, that it was more than just a braindead army of the dead with nothing more to it than death. People maybe wanted to know more about the walkers and the NK.

Also, it was foretold in every season that "winter is coming" and that it would last very long. Sure dont look like its winter in Kings landing. When Jamie left there in season 7 it was snowing, now its all summer. Was that it? The long winter was just the dead coming? maybe a metaphore?

Anyway, its unfair to judge the show without the last 3 episodes out. We will probably get alot of answers.

I was so hype for episode 3, im not that hyped for episode 4. That episode will be the north licking its wounds and cercei planning her defense. Hopefully they wont spend two whole episodes building up for the battle against her, but my money is on that they probably will.

Two episodes used to build up the battle against the dead.
Two episodes to build up the battle against Cercei.
End.

[Soimu]

i bet GOT will go down in history as second worst ending of a populat tv series after LOST.

[Amaterasu65]

I doubt any of that will happen. Sansa could protest all she likes but she’s completely powerless at this point. I doubt there’s many Northerners left given even the women and children get slaughtered in the crypts. And Tyrion will never side with Cersei. Nor would ally herself with him. There’s really no more political twists.

We've already had foreshadowing about Tyrion's possible betrayal. Cersei told him she's pregnant and I feel he wants to do good to his family('s survival, which is a new baby). Then he watched boatsex suspiciously. Then he trusted Cersei would bring her army, but did he trust her to bring her army or he pretended to?

There's also that leaked scene, even though it's probably fake.

[crusadernero]

A masterpiece? Jesus christ. All right, let me try to explain why I have problems with it.

- Ever since the dothraki were introduced, people in the show and us, the viewers, have asked themselves "What will they do if they win the war? They can't rape and pillage in Dany's new utopia. To solve this issue, the writers decided to solve this issue by having the cavalry charge headfirst into the enemy and just be killed off. Despite it goes against any sane military strategy, and we know that the character Tyrion and several others in the gang are supposed to be intelligent strategists. This character trait was abandonded so the writers could solve a story problem.

- The thing that made GoT special when it was based on GRRMs work was that no character was safe. Not because he liked to kill off characters for shock value, but because he wrote the world as unforgiving. If you found yourself in a situation where you are likely to die - you die. The show didn't care about which characters the audience liked or didn't like. People died as natural consequences of their actions and the actions of others. In this episode, some "beloved B characters" die, sure. But the majority live. Jaime lives, even though he's not a great fighter anymore, whilst tens of thousands are slaughtered next to him on the front lines. Would he have survived if this was real? No. Why did he? Cause the writers wanted him to. Why did Beric die? Cause the writers know "someone's got to die" so they decided he was no longer impactful. No one lived or died because of what they did, they lived or died because the writers pulled the strings behind the scenes. GRRM never did that.

- Remember the abyssmal storyline where the Avengers of Ice and Fire ventured beyond the wall? They held their own against the entire undead army for a pretty long while. They were ~10 people. Now an army of tens of thousands is obliterated within minutes. The power of the undead army is not consistent, it is used as a plot device.

- How did Arya kill the NK? We saw her power against he zombies earlier in the episode, sure she fought well against them but she has no magic tricks to use against them. And then when the NK is surrounded by hundreds of zombies and his generals, she somehow manages to sneak past them (with powers she demonstrably did not have mere 20 minutes earlier) and Mortal Kombat jump the NK and kill him? It's cheap. It's a cop out. They didn't know how to setup the kill, so they didn't even try to make it realistic.

- The whole plan. Aren't some of the worlds greatest minds gathered in this group of fighters against the dead? Was really the plan all along just to make a final stand and all die? And then whops someone luckily got the kill. They could have done so much more with it. Of course the NK would walk up to Bran when he felt he had won, but the heroes could have been aware of this. They could have constructed a plan that required enormous sacrifice to draw him out and kill him, but that didn't happen. They had no plan, they just died and died and died and then they won through luck (read; through the power or script writing).

- Why is the NK after Bran? Why does he want to kill him personally? What is his grudge against him? They tell us that NK wants him to die cause the memory of humans die with him. But why does he have to do it personally? I tell you why; because the writers don't know how else to present a scene in which he dies. And it's poor and lazy writing. I'm not saying I have the answer to what they could have done, but it feels like they just gave up even trying.

- - - Updated - - -



Some of us complain because it has now become a generic fantasy movie. It didn't used to be, now it is.

Yeah I wish we got told more about the relation between NK and Bran. We are told Bran is his most dangerous enemy, but why? Bran does literally nothing else than warg into his crows now and can see what has happend and will happen. It does not appear Bran cna do anything else beyond that.

I also wonder if the NK and the undead now are defeated for good, or will there be another one? Maybe Bran is the one to take over for the NK, and the NK dont want that to happen? The NK and the army of the dead has been a threath, legend and myth for thousands of years, laying dormant waiting for the right time. Now they are defeated, will they ever be that again?

So many questions, so little time.

[melzas]

wall of subjective opinions about the show

I pity you. It seems you can't even sit back and enjoy a fantastic show without nitpicking. I would have go into more details as some of your points aren't even valid, but on the second thought, I don't want to waste that much time. Sad to be you.

[Sanguinerd]

I wonder if the NK wanted Bran for something other than to just kill the human wikipedia.. like he needed him to remember who he used to be? Or if there are more CotF somewhere? Anything really.. The location to some secret place nobody else could know but the 3ER.

Suppose we'll never know now.

[Sezh]

I pity you. It seems you can't even sit back and enjoy a fantastic show without nitpicking. I would have go into more details as some of your points aren't even valid, but on the second thought, I don't want to waste that much time. Sad to be you.

What a toxic and insanely immature attitude. I am glad you can enjoy the show, go ahead and do so.

I used to enjoy it when it was based on the writing of GRRM, I don't enjoy the current writing. So I go ahead and watch something else instead.

I will certainly not waste any more time on you. Have a good life.

[Soimu]

We've already had foreshadowing about Tyrion's possible betrayal. Cersei told him she's pregnant and I feel he wants to do good to his family('s survival, which is a new baby). Then he watched boatsex suspiciously. Then he trusted Cersei would bring her army, but did he trust her to bring her army or he pretended to?

There's also that leaked scene, even though it's probably fake.

i doubt it, if he planned to betray in advance than why go north to a battle that was certain to be lost.

[Super Kami Dende]

What a toxic and insanely immature attitude. I am glad you can enjoy the show, go ahead and do so.

I used to enjoy it when it was based on the writing of GRRM, I don't enjoy the writing of the current writers. So I go ahead and watch something else instead.

I will certainly not waste any more time on you. Have a good life.

You mean the same that have been writing it for years? Are you one of those People that watches things they hate for years only to complain about how they had to waste their time watching the thing they hated.

Seems like a pretty inane existence.

[Ton00]

Aint there no night king in the books anyway

[crusadernero]

I wonder if the NK wanted Bran for something other than to just kill the human wikipedia.. like he needed him to remember who he used to be? Or if there are more CotF somewhere? Anything really.. The location to some secret place nobody else could know but the 3ER.

Suppose we'll never know now.

Yeah, I want to know why the NK were so obsessed with Bran. He literally threw everything into the attack on Winterfell with the sole purpose of taking Bran out, no one else matters.

Maybe he were obsessed with taking Bran out because even though the NK could have started the long winter and have control, and the humans losing everything they had. Especially the story of men. Who they are, what they are, what they have done. With that, the NK could rule for a long time but with 3ER alive, he would be the living book that could tell humans of theyre story.

Like, no story to tell = no life.

[melzas]

What a toxic and insanely immature attitude. I am glad you can enjoy the show, go ahead and do so.

I used to enjoy it when it was based on the writing of GRRM, I don't enjoy the writing of the current writers. So I go ahead and watch something else instead.

I will certainly not waste any more time on you. Have a good life.

Nah, not toxic. I genuinely feel sorry for you. I assume you are a fan of fantasy settings and tv shows, and to think that you couldn't enjoy the episode as much as I did and that you missed on so much fun because you were nitpicking the plot holes (even though some of them are reaaaaly far fetched, like that dothraki bit) is just sad. You say the show became a generic fantasy movie - I would like to know what generic fantasy movies you watch that are on par with it, because if they are superior to GoT then I want to see them too (maybe then I would be more sceptical about the series too?).

[Sezh]

You mean the same that have been writing it for years? Are you one of those People that watches things they hate for years only to complain about how they had to waste their time watching the thing they hated.

Seems like a pretty inane existence.

In the first seasons, the writers had an enormous amount of written material to pick and choose from when they wrote their script. They could take out the best parts of the work written by GRRM and use their talent for visual storytelling to make a TV show that stood apart from generic fantasy TV shows.

Now they are alone. They have virtually no material to work with and they're forced to write it all on their own - And I don't appreciate their work. Simple as that. I will watch this season to get some sort of closure, but I don't enjoy it anymore. I'm glad it's soon over so I can put a pin in it and move on to other things.

And I'm not "hating". I have criticism that's valid to me, based on what I like and don't like. Some will agree, some won't.

[Okacz]

Like i said before the people complainig want to make GoT a generic fantasy movie.

I'd say it's the opposite. GoT, or rather ASoIaF has always been about reversing the generic fantasy tropes. Ned Starks death in the first novel set this up pretty well. There is no plot armor that will save you just because you are a main character. If you make a dumb mistake - you suffer consequences. Being good, or acting honorably is never rewarded by itself, sometimes doing the right thing for the realm leaves you with a dozen knifes in your chest.

Battle for Winterfell tho?

1) Plot armor on every major character, aside of a few disposable guys. Nothing more to do in the show? See you, Edd, nice knowing you, Jorah. Being a prominent member of the cast? Sure Jon, survive being alone and surrounded by zombies. While your sister kills her fair share with Ray Park spear dancing, and continued to kick ass even after getting her head smashed into the wall. Same story in which two of the greatest warriors die because of a minor wound getting infected.
2) Big Bad Snowman Guy used up pretty much all the fantasy villain tropes, including shamekilling Theon, smirking at Bran, reaching for the sword VERY SLOWLY, and chokeholding someone he should have just killed.
3) The battleplan was created for cool shots only and had NO sense whatsoever. Let's leave it at that, everyone else commented on the cavalary charge already.

Not to mention the good old fashioned fantasy/WWE trope: the villain/heel winning till the very last minutes only to lose due to "an epic move".

You mentioned Red Wedding? Well, with this writing it would probably not start with "pregnant belly stabbing" but with Lord Frey ordering his men to hold everyone at sword point. Edmure would die somehow because someone has to but who cares about Edmure. And at the end of the episode Arya would arrive with Sandor, jump at Lord Frey, cut his throat and save everyone, because killing him also destroys all the Frey Walkers.

[Fabray]

From this post onwards, if you say the words “Plot Armor”, you’re a fucking clown.