Mythic Uu'nat - Crucible of Storms Hotfixes: Round 2

[Aprete]

Queue the shitstorm if a US guild kills it before the EU. The nerf had to happen though as the new raid won't be out for a while and if the best guild in the world is at 600+ wipes while being stupidly geared and class stacking then yeah...it's not all about the top 5 guilds and if it was a Jaina situation where you could just get more gear to make the fight easier then sure, but this is with the current highest ilvl and people are still having issues.

[Szolo]

And here comes the nerf everybody knew to come after the MDI weekend. Blizzard intentionally tuned the mythic difficulty above feasible, so Method would not lose the opportunity to finish it first, and also to be able to participate in MDI.

[barackohmama]

You clearly don't raid Mythic. Please enlighten us where they can get this "gear" you speak of? Hopefully not the raid they have been fully farming for 3+months already?

Yeah exactly, that raid they raided yesterday.. they did it only for funs

[Mamut]

Kind of sounds like Sunwell doesn't it? Newsflash... a raid does not have to be clearable by all. It just has to be clearable... and that makes for a really amazing goal for everyone... mere mortal players will strive and fail.. until they don't.
?

So you rather would like to see guild disbands than clear the raid (Muru was called guild destroyer for some reason)? How you can call raid clearable if top guild would need few months to kill it? If they can do now like 800 pulls in 1 week (Unat example) so you expect to have how many pulls for last boss? Lets say 6 months, 20 days in month with raids, thats around 14000 pulls for a boss?

You are just trolling with this statements or just dont know what you are even talking about and just spew some nonsense like "hurr durr, 1 guild can kill it in 1 week, so easy, almost like LFR".

[JohnnyMccrum]

The goal is to develop the highest difficulty raid that can be defeated, not difficulty that can't be defeated and that requires nerfs until even the best guild in the world can beat it.

The issue is, how do you know what is possible and what isn't possible if you're not communicating with the top guilds in the world? and you can't even test your own raids due to lack of skilled players internally? I guess it's just relying on cold hard math, a lot of math, for a lot of abilities. Even azerite pieces contain hundreds of variables each, and there's 3 of those for each player, you'd need to factor those into every single fight you develop including bug-testing etc.

In short: I guess they already have their own internal spreadsheets and attempt to develop a boss that would only be killable by the 0.5 percentile of players. This doesn't account for a lot of things and there's huge margin for error when designing a boss encounter for 20 players, each having hundreds of variables needing included in the overall formula It is absolutely unrealistic that the boss would be 100% tuned and 100% bugfree without extensive testing on the PTR and internally.

I'm sure Blizzard does have this down to a science and they can easily calculate how killable a boss is just like you can see how likely you are to complete a garrison table quest - but even if they can calculate that, they can't account for other things that do get left out.

In my opinion: nerfing the boss twice before it has been killed shows that the boss did have overlapping issues between mechanics and those mechanics weren't internally tested, or even discovered until live. Those overlapping mechanics throughout did make the fight not only RNG-based but insanely hard to reliably counter.

- Blizzard needs to communicate more with top guilds.
- the fight needs to be tested more on the PTR (I believe guilds didn't get much time to try out the raid this time around, 3-4 hours with disconnects for both bosses)

[KaPe]

Kind of sounds like Sunwell doesn't it? Newsflash... a raid does not have to be clearable by all. It just has to be clearable... and that makes for a really amazing goal for everyone... mere mortal players will strive and fail.. until they don't.

And others will strive and fail, and fail, and fail... until they have stories of the boss they simply could not conquer.

If everyone can kill it.. then it's really not all that big of a deal huh?

You do realize that Mu'ru was nerfed rather quickly, right? And then again with 10% hp nerf some time later. Sunwell was not some magical land where nothing was never changed. It also had actual gear progression, so top guilds didn't wipe 500+ times with nearly maxed gear.

Hell, Mass Resurrection didn't exist. Wipe recovery took far longer. Mu'ru required single target buffing Amplify Magic. Warlocks needed to farm soul shard during the raid. Nowadays, the top can do much more pulls in far less time. I've been there, I've killed KJ and yet I'm staying away from CoS in its' current form.

[Eviltroll]

^ this

Mythic is SUPPOSED to be incredibly hard, and they go off and nerf it. It's only been alive for one week and already the nerf bat is in full swing. I'll admit I don't do mythic myself but these nerfs make the world first race far less interesting.

You don't even seem to understand some basic shit ... There's a difference between nerfing and fixing shit.This fight like the KJ one was basically unkillable. As someone said in a previous post blizzard's testing team is a bunch on plebs , not skilled enought to be able to test phases on hard bosses so the tuning is fucked up badly.

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Ofc not. Concidering their internal testing team have the skill of a top 200-300 guild, there is no way in hell they even reached the boss at 50%. Like kj which they admitted that they were skipping parts of fight and jumping to next phase without never ever testing the fight fully. PLus the retarded testing they did on ptr was with 390 ivl gear.

If THIS IS NOT OVER LVL 9000 stupidity by a small indy company, then i dont know what is. Evry boss that wasnt tested on ptr was/is a distaster. Raden, kj, and now this. But i have faith. one day close to year 2045 they will learn.

This is so damn true! their testing team is a just a bunch of plebs that is well known.I dont even wanna imagine the rest of blizzard employees playing the game. In fact i think a long time ago i saw lore streaming and i had to close the stream after 2 mins cuz i was about to puke watching him play shaman.But i bet he has opinions and sugestions and shit about classes and balance and he can't fucking hit WASD right.
Disgusting...

[Maudib]

It's incredible you could make such a ridiculously stupid suggestion. We know what players do in that situation: overwhelmingly, they go play some other game.

lol... that is the opposite of what happened... Vanilla grew to 8 million, TBC grew to over 10 million, and wrath almost 12.

Modern WoW can't keep the attention span of half their players for more than 3 months before they start bailing.

[Osmeric]

lol... that is the opposite of what happened... Vanilla grew to 8 million, TBC grew to over 10 million, and wrath almost 12.

Modern WoW can't keep the attention span of half their players for more than 3 months before they start bailing.

Oh not this dumb argument again. The early game grew in spite of the inaccessible end game. When those players ran into the end game, they churned right out again. There's no enormous population of fresh players to bring in to conceal that now.

[Maudib]

This is not Vanilla/Classic anymore where bosses difficulty was simply ignored for a long time, Blizzard has clearly been seeing all these guilds wiping on Uu'nat and adjusted it accordingly.

Oh look... those por players can't kill a boss in the first couple weeks... NERF it because they deserve to kill it.

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Oh not this dumb argument again. The early game grew in spite of the inaccessible end game. When those players ran into the end game, they churned right out again. There's no enormous population of fresh players to bring in to conceal that now.

There isn't? Why not? Isn't our population higher than ever before? Isn't there a fresh batch of kids turning 14 years old this year?

If the game was shit... if the endgame was inaccessible... WHY did it grow to TBC? Why didn't the word get out that endgame was too hard an shun people from playing? Why did it get even worse with end of TBC and STILL it grew?

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And what, pray tell, is the other way to make things hard in a video game?

It doesn't HAVE to be hard. It has to take investment. In Classic that investment was the time to attune, to gear, to craft resist gear, to farm soul shards, to gather reagents, to gear from dungeons. It tooks weeks from max level before you Could raid... now it takes hours from dinging max level.

So in order to make it "cost" something...they made it numerically harder to take more attempts... then they numerically make it easier as time goes by to allow other people to kill it. That isn't "hard", that is simply artificially gating.

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You do realize that Mu'ru was nerfed rather quickly, right? And then again with 10% hp nerf some time later. Sunwell was not some magical land where nothing was never changed. It also had actual gear progression, so top guilds didn't wipe 500+ times with nearly maxed gear.

Hell, Mass Resurrection didn't exist. Wipe recovery took far longer. Mu'ru required single target buffing Amplify Magic. Warlocks needed to farm soul shard during the raid. Nowadays, the top can do much more pulls in far less time. I've been there, I've killed KJ and yet I'm staying away from CoS in its' current form.

And yet, it was cleared by almost NOONE. See my statement above regarding investment... being able to pull more times is bad game design... again.. might as well just queue up your attemps... the RPG aspect for this so called MMO just doesn't exist anymore.

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So you rather would like to see guild disbands than clear the raid (Muru was called guild destroyer for some reason)? How you can call raid clearable if top guild would need few months to kill it? If they can do now like 800 pulls in 1 week (Unat example) so you expect to have how many pulls for last boss? Lets say 6 months, 20 days in month with raids, thats around 14000 pulls for a boss?

You are just trolling with this statements or just dont know what you are even talking about and just spew some nonsense like "hurr durr, 1 guild can kill it in 1 week, so easy, almost like LFR".

Oh WAhhhhhahhhh... we can't kill this boss it's our raid's fault, it's the guild's fault.. i quit this lame guild.""

Yeah I really don't care if they disband.

[Puremallace]

So you rather would like to see guild disbands than clear the raid (Muru was called guild destroyer for some reason)? How you can call raid clearable if top guild would need few months to kill it? If they can do now like 800 pulls in 1 week (Unat example) so you expect to have how many pulls for last boss? Lets say 6 months, 20 days in month with raids, thats around 14000 pulls for a boss?

You are just trolling with this statements or just dont know what you are even talking about and just spew some nonsense like "hurr durr, 1 guild can kill it in 1 week, so easy, almost like LFR".

My counterpoint
1. It is Mythic so it is fully understood that a lot of guilds will not see this content
2. In TBC there was no Mythic tier difficulty or heroic difficulty for raids so ALL guilds were forced into that fight..i.e. guild killer
3. If you killed Muru and cleared Sunwell then I guarantee that is held up as one of your greatest WoW achievements

[Maudib]

My counterpoint
1. It is Mythic so it is fully understood that a lot of guilds will not see this content
2. In TBC there was no Mythic tier difficulty or heroic difficulty for raids so ALL guilds were forced into that fight..i.e. guild killer
3. If you killed Muru and cleared Sunwell then I guarantee that is held up as one of your greatest WoW achievements

Absolutely agree.

It has been stated that only a very small percent of wow player base pushed Sunwell. Clearly that super high end of numerical difficulty is not enjoyed by the masses. Still they devise the Mythic encounters then cut it back for heroic, normal, and LFR.

Why do this at all? Why have a "super hard version when only a very small percentage will enjoy it?

Why not just have 1 raid difficulty that takes time to prepare for, but is more achievable by you talented but not "elite" playerbase? It doesn't have to be uber hard.. it has to be rewarding and cost something. The problem with Mythic is is costs nothing but gold which everyone has an abundance of.

And take that extra dev time and make more content? More encounters? more often?

The people that cleared Sunwell in TBC have some serious bragging rights... was it overtuned? Yes... and i should have never shipped at that level... but therein is Blizzard's problem.. they release stuff all the time without actually testing it. i.e. "The artifact power system didn;t turn out like we expected." "The legendary bad luck prevention system was acting opposite of ho we intended", etc.

[AidanJLowe]

Oh look... those poor players can't kill a boss in the first couple weeks... NERF it because they deserve to kill it.

It doesn't HAVE to be hard. It has to take investment. In Classic that investment was the time to attune, to gear, to craft resist gear, to farm soul shards, to gather reagents, to gear from dungeons. It took weeks from max level before you Could raid... now it takes hours from dinging max level.

Have you read the changes & did you see the attempts in Phase 3 in it's shipped state? Other people will argue with me but that was not doable, the overlap of abilities were brutal to the point deaths would occur irrespective of how good your healers are. Most of it was timing changes not straight up nerfs to boss abilities damage / health, the storm one is highly irrelevant & with the timing alterations its made it in a highly killable state.

The argument about time investment, are you fully aware at what lengths guilds went to compete at the highest level? They literally logged in every day doing AP farming for hours and hours for Battle for Dazar'alor, some people doing as many as 1000 islands in a single week, there is your time investment and that is not even scratching the surface at the length of preparation they did.

[Maudib]

The argument about time investment, are you fully aware at what lengths guilds went to compete at the highest level? They literally logged in every day doing AP farming for hours and hours for Battle for Dazar'alor, some people doing as many as 1000 islands in a single week, there is your time investment and that is not even scratching the surface at the length of preparation they did.

What "highest level competition"?

The same 10 guilds are always on top. lol

And did you read what you wrote? They did nothing but grind AP and iLevel. How exciting and engrossing for an MMORPG.

Sorry that's not preparation.

[AidanJLowe]

What "highest level competition"?

The same 10 guilds are always on top. lol

And did you read what you wrote? They did nothing but grind AP and iLevel. How exciting and engrossing for an MMORPG.

Sorry that's not preparation.

How is that any different to farming reagents for potions/flasks/resist potions & gear which is part of your argument in time investment in order to raid. They farmed AP because of the gear in Battle for Dazar'alor which required that level to unlock its perks, ask any raider if they enjoy that game design..

I remember playing classic being in Felwood for 6 hours a day farming elementals to craft Nature resist potions simply for one nights raiding in Ahn'Qiraj. Nothing has changed like you clearly are adamant about since then except attunement which lets face it was simply a way in order for the content not to be consumed within a week which they've done now with staggered difficulty releases.

Hardly anything in this game is exciting anymore, I've played every expac on and off and it's not the same game you are clearly so fond of, that's coming in the summer with World of Warcraft Classic where being a no lifer means you're ahead of everyone else.

[dhru2]

Maybe I am old school but If your raid average ilvl 415 you should be able to kill all bosses easily in a raid where they drop 415 items... Otherwise people will kill it once and they never want to go there again to suffer. And guess what? they stop paying sub... because there is no more content.

What Jeff said at the start of WoW when he was not a corporate shill: "We have to find balance between difficulty and fun when we make bosses... so players want to kill them again and again."

[Maudib]

How is that any different to farming reagents for potions/flasks/resist potions & gear which is part of your argument in time investment in order to raid. They farmed AP because of the gear in Battle for Dazar'alor which required that level to unlock its perks, ask any raider if they enjoy that game design..

I remember playing classic being in Felwood for 6 hours a day farming elementals to craft Nature resist potions simply for one nights raiding in Ahn'Qiraj. Nothing has changed like you clearly are adamant about since then except attunement which lets face it was simply a way in order for the content not to be consumed within a week which they've done now with staggered difficulty releases.

Hardly anything in this game is exciting anymore, I've played every expac on and off and it's not the same game you are clearly so fond of, that's coming in the summer with World of Warcraft Classic where being a no lifer means you're ahead of everyone else.

I'm sure they hated the design...

Farming reagents takes you into the open world interacting with other people, isn't island expeditions instanced? Isn;t having to level your alchemy, herbing, blacksmithing, mining, first aid, etc more interesting than running a thousand islands?

Farming Felwood... in the open world. Famring reputation in the open world. Farming herbs in the open world. Farming a mob for a recipe int he open world. Farming cloth to level first aid in the open world. Farming gold for you epic mount in the open world. Farming dungeons for gear and enchanting mats in stances. Doing attunements with guildies in the open world.

Compared to:

Farming AP in Island Expeditions in an instance. 1000 times. Come on.. .you really telling me there is no difference?

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Maybe I am old school but If your raid average ilvl 415 you should be able to kill all bosses easily in a raid where they drop 415 items... Otherwise people will kill it once and they never want to go there again to suffer. And guess what? they stop paying sub... because there is no more content.

What Jeff said at the start of WoW when he was not a corporate shill: "We have to find balance between difficulty and fun when we make bosses... so players want to kill them again and again."

Totally agree... Encounters do not have to be overly difficult. They need to take some time to learn, then be farmable for drops for the entire raid. Hard enough that if people start to zone out, you wipe, easy enough that once you have farther bosses on farm they get easier to kill and therefore killing them faster (or better yet with hardmodes so you get different loot)

[Stormykitten]

Every new raid now will likely be overtuned for the last couple of bosses for Mythic, just because it ensures a longer world first stream promotion. I'm not sure if that's bad for any party involved, since 1. the guilds get a challenge and 2. Blizzard gets more eyes on their game. So I think it's not the end of the world if mythic has balance fixes as a "soft challenge mode"; it's not elegant but how else do you challenge these guilds?

It does bring up the topic, should this type of balance be a thing in the first place, should we just abandon the world firsts and stop trying to cater to such a niche, risking balance woes thanks to it? I'd say that if balancing affects the general class balance, then yes it should be abandoned. There are many factors which has led us to where we are with classes, and overly strict balancing is a large and unsung part of it. But just encounter balancing, I think that is fine.

There's also the consideration, has the game become too "game-lobby" and artificial with things like this, and there I would say that it's definitely a concern. The very fact we have four difficulty modes is a good sign. :P

[Mamut]

Farming AP in Island Expeditions in an instance. 1000 times. Come on.. .you really telling me there is no difference?

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Totally agree... Encounters do not have to be overly difficult. They need to take some time to learn, then be farmable for drops for the entire raid. Hard enough that if people start to zone out, you wipe, easy enough that once you have farther bosses on farm they get easier to kill and therefore killing them faster (or better yet with hardmodes so you get different loot)

Yes, theres no differences, both were/are tedious and boring as fuck.

And can you finally decide what you want? Because first you said you wanna last raid for months then you say "Encounters do not have to be overly difficult and should be farmable". How the hell something can be farmable when you cant kill it for months? Do you think guilds that are doing 500+ pulls did not learn the mechanics?

[Maudib]

Yes, theres no differences, both were/are tedious and boring as fuck.

And can you finally decide what you want? Because first you said you wanna last raid for months then you say "Encounters do not have to be overly difficult and should be farmable". How the hell something can be farmable when you cant kill it for months? Do you think guilds that are doing 500+ pulls did not learn the mechanics?

Sounds to me like you are done with MMOs entirely. Battle Royales are ------->that way.

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Yes, theres no differences, both were/are tedious and boring as fuck.

And can you finally decide what you want? Because first you said you wanna last raid for months then you say "Encounters do not have to be overly difficult and should be farmable". How the hell something can be farmable when you cant kill it for months? Do you think guilds that are doing 500+ pulls did not learn the mechanics?

Maybe before you can even kill it you have to attune? Farm resist gear? Gear up from dungeons and crafting first? And not just you but the entire raid team?

Then it be hard enough to take a few weeks to learn it well but then be farmable?

Yeah.. like that.