Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[tyrlaan]

And they could have done the same mother fucking thing with Black Widow.

Nevermind that he also had the Time Stone at the same time and could have easily done so, with the Mind Stone gifting her with all her memories from whatever point of time he had plucked her out of so she wouldn't even have Gamora's issue of not remembering anything. Regardless, the "Soul Stone" claimed Gamora's soul just like it claimed Black Widow's. If the former could be brought back despite that, so could Black Widow's. Period. End of discussion.

No, she's not the same Gamora. Even if you do all the stone tricks you mention, it's still not the same Gamora. Memories vs experiencing them are not the same. She wasn't "brought back", she's been yanked from another timeline.

So sure they could have jumped back in time, caused a divergent line just to swipe out a new BW to muck with a bunch of times with Stones and get... not the same BW.

You'd be wrong.

Maybe, but I honestly don't recall a scene with the two of them on the same screen or in the same room. Regardless, your argument is flawed per above so its not terribly important.

[ohwell]

Unless you wanna use time travel to get Gamora back but give a middle finger to Black Widow.

"I tried, there was no way I could get her back!" --Hulk talking about Black Widow as Gamora chills in the background.

Bringing Black Widow back would damn that timeline to Thanos. Bringing Gamora from that time WITH Thanos could realistically have proved very beneficial for that time line. The only real fuck up of what might happen in a timeline was Loki getting the space stone.

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The Russos pretty much confirmed in a Chinese interview that Steve married alternate timeline Peggy, lived his life there, and continued to be a hero to help people there.

So I'm satisfied.

It really didn't make sense. They sounded like Chris Metzen at Blizzcon talking out of their ass.

As long as modern day Captain America didn't do anything that would disrupt the normal flow of events, one could argue he ALWAYS was there with her.
That is the SIMPLEST explanation of it. Peggy straight up turned him away when he went to see her in the present. Why? She knew from the future him that he had a journey to make. Their explanation was that you can't rewrite the past, but nothing said you couldn't be the past that was always meant to happen.
It's kind of like Futurama when Fry slept with his grandmother. Fry was ALWAYS his own grandfather and he actually HAD to go back in the past to have sex with her, he just didn't know. Captain America NOT going to the past could have created an alternate timeline itself, but he didn't know that either. He chose to do it and it was the correct thing to do.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

No, she's not the same Gamora. Even if you do all the stone tricks you mention, it's still not the same Gamora. Memories vs experiencing them are not the same. She wasn't "brought back", she's been yanked from another timeline.

And, yet again, they could have done exactly the same thing with Black Widow. Jesus Christ, how hard is that concept to get through some people's head?

So sure they could have jumped back in time, caused a divergent line just to swipe out a new BW to muck with a bunch of times with Stones and get... not the same BW.

Yeah, because that was a real concern. You know, seeing as how they completely obliterated Thanos before he ever did the snap in the first place. Srs concarnz!

Maybe, but I honestly don't recall a scene with the two of them on the same screen or in the same room.

The amount of fucks I give about your poor memory on the subject: 0.

Regardless, your argument is flawed per above so its not terribly important.

Wrong. Period.

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It really didn't make sense. They sounded like Chris Metzen at Blizzcon talking out of their ass.

Nevermind that there clearly isn't an alternate timeline. If it was, he wouldn't have shown up at the end at all.

Sure, one can say that alternate timelines were created, but in the movie, there was no evidence what-so-fucking-ever of alternate timelines, since everything occurred in what we saw on the screen, start to finish.

[ohwell]

No, she's not the same Gamora. Even if you do all the stone tricks you mention, it's still not the same Gamora. Memories vs experiencing them are not the same. She wasn't "brought back", she's been yanked from another timeline.

So sure they could have jumped back in time, caused a divergent line just to swipe out a new BW to muck with a bunch of times with Stones and get... not the same BW.



Maybe, but I honestly don't recall a scene with the two of them on the same screen or in the same room. Regardless, your argument is flawed per above so its not terribly important.

Well if the one the swipe was from anywhere within the movie it'd be fine, but my point I present is that it potentially dooms the timeline which is the real reason the stones were brought back. Technically Tony meeting his dad could have been destined as well and not "changed" anything because it was always meant to happen, but Captain America saying Hail Hydra to the goons definitely changed that timeline since things might be different in Winter Soldier then as well as knocking Quill out(well maybe). Loki escaping with the space stone also created a new timeline. The return of the stones wasn't about preserving them, but rather not damning them like the Ancient One said. Removing Black Widow at any point that would be relevant to the Avengers in terms of memory and possibly even before that would damn that timeline, even if they snatched her right as she jumped, that timeline would be stuck with the snap.

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And, yet again, they could have done exactly the same thing with Black Widow. Jesus Christ, how hard is that concept to get through some people's head?


Yeah, because that was a real concern. You know, seeing as how they completely obliterated Thanos before he ever did the snap in the first place. Srs concarnz!


The amount of fucks I give about your poor memory on the subject: 0.


Wrong. Period.

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Nevermind that there clearly isn't an alternate timeline. If it was, he wouldn't have shown up at the end at all.

Sure, one can say that alternate timelines were created, but in the movie, there was no evidence what-so-fucking-ever of alternate timelines, since everything occurred in what we saw on the screen, start to finish.

I think they were trying to argue he used the Quantum Realm to somehow come back like planned, but that makes no sense. It never said you could travel through realities/timelines, simply time. He was obviously in the same timeline and my explanation makes way more sense.

[Skizzit]

So I know trying to make complete sense of the time travel shenanigans is just silly, but there is one part of the movie that really bothers me because it goes against not the ramifications of time travel, but the mechanics they set up in the movie. And maybe this was addressed and I just missed it, but just how did AU Nebula open that portal for past Thanos and his entire ship? It was made very clear that the way the time travel worked was by using Pym particles to go through the quantum realm and that they only had a very limited amount, just enough for each person to make one trip to the past and back yet somehow AU Nebula was able to just fiddle with the machine for a few seconds and open a portal not only to exactly to where and when Thanos and his ship were located, but large enough for an entire ship full of thousands of being to come through?

On the contrary, I hope they don't make Pepper Potts the next Iron Man, I don't like Gwyneth Paltrow.

If anything, I see them adding Ironheart to the MCU

[Appelgren]

Amazing movie. Didnt bother too much with any "illogical" time traveling since its, you know, science fiction.
Anytime a movie goes for the terms "quantum" or "time travel" it means that all logics are of the table.
Even if they set up a list of very specific rules. Its not supposed to be realistic since time travel isnt real.

Amazing movie from start to finish

[tyrlaan]

As long as modern day Captain America didn't do anything that would disrupt the normal flow of events, one could argue he ALWAYS was there with her.
That is the SIMPLEST explanation of it. Peggy straight up turned him away when he went to see her in the present. Why? She knew from the future him that he had a journey to make. Their explanation was that you can't rewrite the past, but nothing said you couldn't be the past that was always meant to happen.
It's kind of like Futurama when Fry slept with his grandmother. Fry was ALWAYS his own grandfather and he actually HAD to go back in the past to have sex with her, he just didn't know. Captain America NOT going to the past could have created an alternate timeline itself, but he didn't know that either. He chose to do it and it was the correct thing to do.

No, that's literally the most complex explanation of it. If it was "always meant to happen", then all the time travel in the movie was "always meant to happen", which opens many cans of worms far beyond the possibility of a few divergent timelines dangling out there. The rules for time travel for the MCU were laid out, and what you are describing does not jive with those rules.

And, yet again, they could have done exactly the same thing with Black Widow. Jesus Christ, how hard is that concept to get through some people's head?

I know you can't get to your next condescending post fast enough, but when you quote me literally saying they could have done the exact same thing with BW, it's clear you're not interested in having a good faith discussion/argument, you just want to be an ass. Grats?

Yeah, because that was a real concern. You know, seeing as how they completely obliterated Thanos before he ever did the snap in the first place. Srs concarnz!

Again, you are wrong. a) the Thanos that was obliterated is not from the main timeline, a.k.a. not the one that did the snap in the first place. And b) why do you think everyone would be "totes cool" with some BW 2.0 that isn't really the BW they all knew? It's like, again, you sped past the part where you process what I wrote just so you could get to the part where you lob insults.

The amount of fucks I give about your poor memory on the subject: 0.

That's some epic contribution to the discussion buddy. But like I said, and you skimmed right past, it's irrelevant because your entire argument is flawed.

Wrong. Period.

Damn, you wrote "period" after the word "wrong" which was followed by a literal period. You must be totally right. /s

Come back when you want to have a discussion. Go elsewhere while you just want to shit on people and make yourself feel better.

Nevermind that there clearly isn't an alternate timeline. If it was, he wouldn't have shown up at the end at all.

Sure, one can say that alternate timelines were created, but in the movie, there was no evidence what-so-fucking-ever of alternate timelines, since everything occurred in what we saw on the screen, start to finish.

The movie literally explains to you that everything they did in the past created alternate timelines and could do nothing else. They explicitly state that the past cannot be changed. The only way you can conclude that there are no alternate timelines is by choosing to ignore the movie.

Well if the one the swipe was from anywhere within the movie it'd be fine, but my point I present is that it potentially dooms the timeline which is the real reason the stones were brought back. Technically Tony meeting his dad could have been destined as well and not "changed" anything because it was always meant to happen, but Captain America saying Hail Hydra to the goons definitely changed that timeline since things might be different in Winter Soldier then as well as knocking Quill out(well maybe). Loki escaping with the space stone also created a new timeline. The return of the stones wasn't about preserving them, but rather not damning them like the Ancient One said. Removing Black Widow at any point that would be relevant to the Avengers in terms of memory and possibly even before that would damn that timeline, even if they snatched her right as she jumped, that timeline would be stuck with the snap.

Not exactly. Yes, the Ancient One is concerned about the alternate timeline she would get shunted to would be overridden with all sorts of baddies but she also explains that taking the stone is creating an alternate timeline. The return of the stone was about squashing the alternate timeline back out of existence.

And yeah, there are a decent amount of problems there, especially when you think about the failed heist of the space stone, for example, which brings into question if some or all of these alternate timelines were truly eliminated.

I think they were trying to argue he used the Quantum Realm to somehow come back like planned, but that makes no sense. It never said you could travel through realities/timelines, simply time. He was obviously in the same timeline and my explanation makes way more sense.

I mean the Russos disagree with you dude

But yes, the argument is he got back to the main timeline either through different means or he just didn't have to come back to the pad (as someone suggested earlier).

So I know trying to make complete sense of the time travel shenanigans is just silly, but there is one part of the movie that really bothers me because it goes against not the ramifications of time travel, but the mechanics they set up in the movie. And maybe this was addressed and I just missed it, but just how did AU Nebula open that portal for past Thanos and his entire ship? It was made very clear that the way the time travel worked was by using Pym particles to go through the quantum realm and that they only had a very limited amount, just enough for each person to make one trip to the past and back yet somehow AU Nebula was able to just fiddle with the machine for a few seconds and open a portal not only to exactly to where and when Thanos and his ship were located, but large enough for an entire ship full of thousands of being to come through?

Thanos and his assorted henchmen/armies just reverse engineered and then cranked out more Pym particles. This is confirmed by Russos.

[Clone]

I thought the movie was enjoyable, but I didn't like the direction of the story.

The five year time skip is bullshit, so is fighting past version Thanos and crew.

[ohwell]

No, that's literally the most complex explanation of it. If it was "always meant to happen", then all the time travel in the movie was "always meant to happen", which opens many cans of worms far beyond the possibility of a few divergent timelines dangling out there. The rules for time travel for the MCU were laid out, and what you are describing does not jive with those rules.

Doesn't apply with the other events because those events CLEARLY interfere with the timeline. Explain how him living at Peggy's house changes anything we've seen in the movies. It doesn't. Them going back in time and setting Loki free does. Them knocking out Quill changes the events. Them having Thanos come to their time changes the timeline he left.

The only cases that can be argued that don't change a timeline are the 1970's, Asgard, and Vormir. That's assuming Rocket wasn't seen which I don't recall. Thor speaking to his mother could have always happened and she just never talked about it. Same thing goes with Tony speaking to his father and the woman thinking they were suspicious. All of those events could have easily happened.

What I'm saying does not change the rules they laid out. They said CHANGING the past won't do anything. What if he wasn't changing the past as he always met Peggy there. Him meeting her changes literally nothing in history and even further cements why she was so cold to him in somewhat present day. What they had said is if you go back and change something it won't matter because it wasn't your past once you change it basically. It's essentially why time travel wouldn't work in reality because if you go back to stop your parents from abusing you, you wouldn't be abused and thus not go back to stop it and it would still happen because you never went back. He knows Peggy led a life with love. It just turned out that love was him meeting her. Furthermore, Steve simply living a life with Peggy cannot be disproven that it happened in the MCU. Loki escaping because of the Hulk hitting Tony can.

[PACOX]

I thought the movie was enjoyable, but I didn't like the direction of the story.

The five year time skip is bullshit, so is fighting past version Thanos and crew.

Past Thanos made sense to me, even Nebula fucking up and getting caught. Of course, if Thanos gets wind of some time travels he is going to be all on top of that. And when he finds out [I]why[/I] they were there, he running to the stones. 'They tried to undo the 50% snap, therefore I need to kill all of them this go around'.

[seleri]

I really don't get why some people are so hung up on "bringing back" Black Widow. They very well could have, just like, presumably, there's an alternate timeline Gamora running around now. But Gamora came to the main timeline with Thanos in an effort to stop him and then got stranded or just didn't care about going back since she has no attachment to that universe. To do the same for Natasha would mean they'd have to find a Natasha that would want to come to the main timeline for some reason and even then she wouldn't be "their Natasha".

[Shadowferal]

Yet again, why are you here? Do you derive perverse enjoyment shitting on Marvel movies?

Why are you responding?
Matter of fact, anyone that does criticize your little movie seems to get you all bothered...

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Past Thanos made sense to me, even Nebula fucking up and getting caught. Of course, if Thanos gets wind of some time travels he is going to be all on top of that. And when he finds out [I]why[/I] they were there, he running to the stones. 'They tried to undo the 50% snap, therefore I need to kill all of them this go around'.

I think the problem is less that it doesn't make sense and more that it's not as satisfying because it's not the same Thanos. He doesn't know or care who these people are.

[Clone]

Past Thanos made sense to me, even Nebula fucking up and getting caught. Of course, if Thanos gets wind of some time travels he is going to be all on top of that. And when he finds out [I]why[/I] they were there, he running to the stones. 'They tried to undo the 50% snap, therefore I need to kill all of them this go around'.

I am not saying it doesn't make sense. What I have against is killing characters that you want to reuse. I think that's bad story telling, but strictly from a story telling perspective.

Edit: Yes, @AwkwardSquirtle brings up a good point too. It's definitely not as satisfying.

[tyrlaan]

Why are you responding?
Matter of fact, anyone that does criticize your little movie seems to get you all bothered...

True, I should just ignore you. Thanks for the advice.

[Logwyn]

Why couldn't have Iron Man just snapped his fingers and had everything fall into place? Gamora alive, Black Widow alive, him not dying, Peggy alive at that time, stone back where they belonged, Thanos and company gone, etc. Not like they didn't have the gauntlet of omnipotent great powers over all time, space, and reality.

You could have even brought Superman, Batman, Aquaman, and Wonderwoman into the Universe and had this DC/Marvel fun fest all cause of these stones of great powers even killed Deadpool along the way.

[MrLachyG]

Your last sentence says it all for me. There have been several big notes at this point, especially in IW and Endgame, where a lot of folks were worried how it wasn't going to be crap, and so far Feige etc have delivered pretty solidly. How Far From Home plays out will prove if their still hitting their beats or not.

I believe that in the case of the movie in question, all the important cast members at Peter's high school were dusted. so when they come back, they are still the same age and still need to finish high school

[Kyphael]

I wrote before about how Infinity War leaves open a yawning hole in the narrative where the heroes never actually contradict Thanos ideologically.

When Thanos proclaims he has destroyed the gems, Nebula comes to the defense of the factuality of his statement, saying "My father is many things, but a liar is not one of them." Thanos said in IW that once he committed genocide on Gamora's planet, it became a "paradise" because of him. The obvious implication in the first film is that Thanos was simply a liar, but now we can rule that out. We can also rule out that Thanos is completely delusional and that the plan didn't actually make Gamora's homeworld a paradise. Thanos isn't really depicted as totally detached from reality.

So the implicit message of the film is that Thanos is correct, and his genocide plan works.

Ironically, Thanos' plan was the plan God had Moses carry out. The only difference is, God's plan according to scripture, was to wipe out 99.99% of the world's population to start over, and that plan was considered good, and God is good, but Thanos' plan to wipe out just half is villainous, and Thanos is the bad guy.

Food for thought. I mean, I don't think anyone would ever disagree that the human race is hypocritical to the core.

[MrLachyG]

Half their classmates are now in college or post high school. None of the important mates being dusted is statistically unlikely.

as far as I see it, there are only a handful that needed to be dusted - Peter, obviously, Ned, Michelle, Liz, Flash and Betty. the rest are fairly inconsequential. I would argue that those 6 all being dusted is a fairly high likelihood given that 50% of humanity was dusted. even if you don't like that likelihood or whatever, I am pretty sure that is what they will say when they reprise their roles

[PACOX]

Then you don't understand statistics. It's about .78% chance that those 6 would have been dusted. Less than one percent.

Considering how people were actually dusted in the movie.

Hawkeye lost 5
Ant Man 3
GotG everyone but Rocket
None of the original Avengers got dusted.

Its not crazy that the 6 in Spider-Man all got dusted together.