Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[MrLachyG]

Then you don't understand statistics. It's about .78% chance that those 6 would have been dusted. Less than one percent.

I am questioning your statistics on that one. Billions of people got dusted, including at least half of Peter's class, so it is more than probable that those 6 got dusted. I mean some of them might not have been dusted, some might have survived and moved on. we don't know yet. However, regardless of statistics and anything else, if those 6 reappear in Far From Home that is what they will go with to justify their appearance

[Logwyn]

Ironically, Thanos' plan was the plan God had Moses carry out. The only difference is, God's plan according to scripture, was to wipe out 99.99% of the world's population to start over, and that plan was considered good, and God is good, but Thanos' plan to wipe out just half is villainous, and Thanos is the bad guy.

Food for thought. I mean, I don't think anyone would ever disagree that the human race is hypocritical to the core.

Problem with the movie Thanos's plan is that you are still getting the end result that he was trying to prevent just slower.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

So...it's necessary to turn off the brain to enjoy this?
Sounds a lot like the comic books...after the 90s. (being generous)

I’m guessing you haven’t read many post 90’s comics if you think they you have to turn your brain off but didn’t have to for pre 90’s comics.

[Ophenia]

It made sense to me. The snap affected the entire universe, Earth wouldn't be the only planet reeling, so it made sense as an interstellar hero to not just be focusing on earth.

Doesn't make sense to me.

She was never appointed as International Police Officer, she has no legitimacy to interfere in every planet's internal affairs. Hell, even on Earth we had trouble with the local heroes during one full movie, but somehow the billion of planets in the universe will be perfectly fine that a pretty random girl comes and try to "solve" all the political issues that came with the snap ?

Plus, wtf ? All planets suffered the same thing as Earth : half of the people disappeared. So beyond a few rebellion/uprising, there is literally nothing to "solve". Earth is a perfect example, you didn't see Banner or Captain trying to "solve" anything, because there is nothing to solve if you're not trying to reverse the snap.

Marvel only had the legitimacy to focus on Earth (planet where she's from) and the Kree's planet (was that Hala we saw in the movie ? don't remember if that's mentioned) where she lived 20 years.

[Vakir]

As a big Cap fan, with him easily going from "meh" to most favorite character in the MCU from Winter Soldier onward, I'm kind of surprised by the amount of negative response from other fans of his from the way his story ended. It made sense. I'm talking thematically, not the hangups people have about the AU/time travel logistics.

Tony and Steve's stories are pretty clearly meant to mirror each other and it's basic-bitch storytelling. Tony has been a mega-privileged person from the beginning, decided he'd use his power for better purposes when he didn't have to, and then even lucked out on the Snappening to have the family he wanted to finally settle down and be done. But since he can't just let something go, he decides to dive back in and die for the universe because he can't just ignore things, even if he was once a selfish person.

Steve couldn't watch a damn movie without turning it into an excuse to stand up for something and his natural inclination was to just dive on a grenade like it was breathing air. He decided to be a damn war criminal to back just one person based on what he believed to be right. But eventually, he made the decision to have a chance to live his life when he wasn't able to have one in the first place.

So yes, he's walking away from Bucky (who clearly knew the plan before he even time jumped) any hypothetical number of decades that he could be assisting the Avengers, all of that...but at the end of the day, isn't the entire reason people fight in order to get the opportunity to live happy and fulfilling lives? If there's no end to it for someone, it basically means that the struggle is meaningless. Eventually that selflessness is just destructive and martyrdom. It's the opposite of Tony's hedonism streak and just as bad.

Basically the message I'm being given is that Steve Rogers can't possibly end any possible way without dying on the battlefield like a fucking Klingon or being a war-bureaucrat via SHIELD leadership, which is...bizarre. The implication that Captain America [B]can't [/B]retire without it being some betrayal is pretty much saying that this very obvious metaphor for displaced veterans (return home changed, feel disconnected from civilian life, feel frozen in the time of when they served, can't find a place for themselves, etc.) should live in some weird perpetual nightmare of the inability to connect with a world outside fighting. Which is all kinds of fucked up.

[MrLachyG]

Doesn't make sense to me.

She was never appointed as International Police Officer, she has no legitimacy to interfere in every planet's internal affairs. Hell, even on Earth we had trouble with the local heroes during one full movie, but somehow the billion of planets in the universe will be perfectly fine that a pretty random girl comes and try to "solve" all the political issues that came with the snap ?

Plus, wtf ? All planets suffered the same thing as Earth : half of the people disappeared. So beyond a few rebellion/uprising, there is literally nothing to "solve". Earth is a perfect example, you didn't see Banner or Captain trying to "solve" anything, because there is nothing to solve if you're not trying to reverse the snap.

Marvel only had the legitimacy to focus on Earth (planet where she's from) and the Kree's planet (was that Hala we saw in the movie ? don't remember if that's mentioned) where she lived 20 years.

um it wasn't just the political stuff..... destroying the stones had a marked effect on the whole universe

[Vakir]

Plus, wtf ? All planets suffered the same thing as Earth : half of the people disappeared. So beyond a few rebellion/uprising, there is literally nothing to "solve". Earth is a perfect example, you didn't see Banner or Captain trying to "solve" anything, because there is nothing to solve if you're not trying to reverse the snap.

...wat.

They WERE all doing stuff to try and solve problems, even if it wasn't THE problem. That was the entire point of the first act. This desperate attempt to find normalcy or to rebuild. Steve running support groups is "solving" the situation the best he could on Earth by helping people process their grief and trauma of waking up in an unfamiliar world cut off from people they loved. You know, like he did. Natasha was coordinating with Rocket, and Okoye to specifically try to address issues as they came up, and the whole point of that underwater earthquake thing was acknowledging how helpless they were to address most problems happening post-Snap. It was a hollow attempt at trying to make things better. Hawkeye was a vigilante out of anger while under the guise of trying to keep doing the superhero thing, Thor gave up and became a depressed mess, etc. etc.

The point is that they're all TRYING to do something and move on the best they can, but the situation is still dire and miserable. So it makes sense that Captain Marvel, whose entire schtick is probably going to be dealing with cosmic issues, would be attempting to deal with cosmic issues...probably with limited success just like them. The entire point is that everyone is wallowing in failure but is doing their best and going through the motions anyway. So it made sense for her to be off-Earth for a lot of that time. Earthlings solve halved-micro problems, cosmic entities solve halved-macro problems.

[Ophenia]

...wat.

They WERE all doing stuff to try and solve problems, even if it wasn't THE problem. That was the entire point of the first act. This desperate attempt to find normalcy or to rebuild. Steve running support groups is "solving" the situation the best he could on Earth by helping people process their grief and trauma of waking up in an unfamiliar world cut off from people they loved. You know, like he did. Natasha was coordinating with Rocket, and Okoye to specifically try to address issues as they came up, and the whole point of that underwater earthquake thing was acknowledging how helpless they were to address most problems happening post-Snap. It was a hollow attempt at trying to make things better. Hawkeye was a vigilante out of anger while under the guise of trying to keep doing the superhero thing, Thor gave up and became a depressed mess, etc. etc.

The point is that they're all TRYING to do something and move on the best they can, but the situation is still dire and miserable. So it makes sense that Captain Marvel, whose entire schtick is probably going to be dealing with cosmic issues, would be attempting to deal with cosmic issues...probably with limited success just like them. The entire point is that everyone is wallowing in failure but is doing their best and going through the motions anyway. So it made sense for her to be off-Earth for a lot of that time. Earthlings solve halved-micro problems, cosmic entities solve halved-macro problems.

I still don't see what Captain Marvel could legitimately do. She never talked about "cosmic" problems, just "planet" problems. As you said, Captain America is helping people going through this hard time because he already went through it. But Captain Marvel only lived on two planets, she has no clue about how people live on the 99.999% other planets in the galaxy. Rocket, Okoye and Natasha intervened on stuff they knew about.

So unless the snap transformed a sun into a supernova and some planet without space technology must be evacuated, there is nothing Captain Marvel can do for them. Fixing uprisings is up to the people themselves, Captain Marvel is not the USA of the entire galaxy.

[Vakir]

I still don't see what Captain Marvel could legitimately do. She never talked about "cosmic" problems, just "planet" problems. As you said, Captain America is helping people going through this hard time because he already went through it. But Captain Marvel only lived on two planets, she has no clue about how people live on the 99.999% other planets in the galaxy. Rocket, Okoye and Natasha intervened on stuff they knew about.

So unless the snap transformed a sun into a supernova and some planet without space technology must be evacuated, there is nothing Captain Marvel can do for them. Fixing uprisings is up to the people themselves, Captain Marvel is not the USA of the entire galaxy.

Cosmic is a scale, so multiple planets is technically a cosmic problem...? Semantics aside, we really don't know the extent to what she knows or doesn't know in the 20 or so years that gapped between this and Endgame. Which is both the intended source of intrigue about her...and also the thing that makes it hard for me to get attached to the character.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's perfect writing or anything. But "everyone else wasn't trying to solve anything" was simply a wrong statement.

That being said, if she can travel enough lightyears to tow-truck Tony and Nebula to Earth within the hours of air they had left, she probably moves around fast enough and addresses issues she's aware of in that 20ish year timespan where she'd have a decent understanding of what's going on in certain sectors beyond just political uprisings.

There's too many unknowns for me to say "Why didn't this person stay on a planet they don't even recognize?" What I would say is "I could use more explanation for...what exactly Carol Danvers does, but the movie was already 3 hours long and I'd rather have had the time for the OG6."

[eschatological]

So, saw this movie today. Lots of fun. Enjoyed it thoroughly. A bit confused on why Thanos (and Gamora and old Nebula) got dusted, since they still had a future to go to where Thanos got the stones, unless Nebula's short circuit caused a splinter timeline in which Thanos gets dusted there. Which I guess make a modicum of sense.


Also I guess Loki escaping with the Tesseract formed another splinter universe?

Are they setting up all these splinters as potential plot hooks for, say, Tessa Thompson's Thor, or the Guardians to deal with, etc?

Either way, I'm not invested enough to care about these minor things ruining the movie for me.

[Leih]

So, saw this movie today. Lots of fun. Enjoyed it thoroughly. A bit confused on why Thanos (and Gamora and old Nebula) got dusted, since they still had a future to go to where Thanos got the stones, unless Nebula's short circuit caused a splinter timeline in which Thanos gets dusted there. Which I guess make a modicum of sense.


Also I guess Loki escaping with the Tesseract formed another splinter universe?

Are they setting up all these splinters as potential plot hooks for, say, Tessa Thompson's Thor, or the Guardians to deal with, etc?

Either way, I'm not invested enough to care about these minor things ruining the movie for me.

Yeah these are definitely alt timelines being created by the results of these actions... likewise with Cap's final adventure in the end.

I guess the fact that they've introduced the possibility of alternative timelines and universes means they can explore this concept in future should they want to. Comic books sure love their AU's and multiverse crossovers. And they can do alternative timelines as ways to do new Disney+ shows without affecting the movie timeline.

[c0rnel]

Past Nebula got killed by Future Nebula, she didn't get dusted (unless you mean dusted as in killed). Past Gamora is alive but didn't stick around (probably ran off somewhere) as you can see Quill searching for her at the end.

[Ophenia]

Also I guess Loki escaping with the Tesseract formed another splinter universe?

Are they setting up all these splinters as potential plot hooks for, say, Tessa Thompson's Thor, or the Guardians to deal with, etc?

Either way, I'm not invested enough to care about these minor things ruining the movie for me.

They'll probably take the opportunity of these alternate universes for the Disney series. One is concerning Loki, so this gives them a perfect setup to start off from the Avengers' modified events.

Maybe the alternate reality Thanos left (2013) can be used for the WandaVision serie (as it is currently impossible to do a "cannon" serie involving Vision, because of his short life-span ).

[Zeek Daniels]

They'll probably take the opportunity of these alternate universes for the Disney series. One is concerning Loki, so this gives them a perfect setup to start off from the Avengers' modified events.

Maybe the alternate reality Thanos left (2013) can be used for the WandaVision serie (as it is currently impossible to do a "cannon" serie involving Vision, because of his short life-span ).

Why does everyone think vision cant return? He died because thanos ripped the mind stone out of his head. But that was the plan all along. Shuri was trying to seperate the stone from his head without killing him. Bruce said before they attempted this that vision is a combination of multiple intellects, Ultron, Stark Banner and the Mindstone. Removing one does not kill the rest. He is a robot. All they need to do is have Shuri rebuild him so that he can function without the stone.

[Ophenia]

Why does everyone think vision cant return? He died because thanos ripped the mind stone out of his head. But that was the plan all along. Shuri was trying to seperate the stone from his head without killing him. Bruce said before they attempted this that vision is a combination of multiple intellects, Ultron, Stark Banner and the Mindstone. Removing one does not kill the rest. He is a robot. All they need to do is have Shuri rebuild him so that he can function without the stone.

Because a simple robot is boring. The Mind Stone made him interesting through his complexity.
Vision being a Vibranium Jarvis ? Great, let's just mass product him and that's it. No interesting arc could ever emerge from that.

Plus, I'll never buy the "Shuri can just rebuild him, duh" after they completely forgot this hypothesis in Infinity War. Repairing Vision was 500% easier than "disconnecting the Mind Stone from him then destroy it lul" when nobody knows what the Infinity Stones exactly are, having a fully operational Vision could have saved the day.

So I really hope, for the sake of this character we all enjoyed, that he remains dead rather than becoming a Vibranium Jarvis.

[Lochton]

Loved Endgame but a certain section of the movie did bring a tear..

[fakaroonie]

Enjoyed it, but really disliked the direction they took with Thanos.


A being so powerful, just wanting to hit a reset button and then chill on a farm alone? Mad Titan? More like Cosmically depressed Titan.

[Maudib]

Ummm he would not have started with the ones where he handed the stone over because at the time that was NOT one he was considering.

We don't know that. Because we weren't given every iota of detail... it allows us as a viewer to fill in as we choose. I choose to believe that after their several altercations with Thanos, Dr. Strange new the inevitability of him obtaining them all. For this reason he began looking for ways to defeat Thanos and save as many people as possible starting with outcomes that include Thanos getting them all.

It really is that simple. It's not about debating infinite possibilities, or inconsistent math/science... it's about that.

I find it amazing that something like this pulls people away from immersion... but how only women stepped up to back Captain Marvel before she got one punched into "where the heck she go land".

Oddly enough... while the movie tried some form of feminist message.. .they manage to not only show the most powerful female hero in the universe was NOT able to get it done... but all her sisters could not help her do it.

That pulled me out of the movie immersion while nerding out about how many outcomes Dr. Strange reviewed never crossed my mind.

[Bodakane]

Based on what? Your political leanings? Feminist films have been terrible ideas financially in the last few years, and money doesn't care about your ideology.

Like the flops Wonder Women and Captain Marvel?

I get you guys are scared of strong women with opinions, but to literally fabricated a new reality is taking your cowardice a little too far.

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Enjoyed it, but really disliked the direction they took with Thanos.


A being so powerful, just wanting to hit a reset button and then chill on a farm alone? Mad Titan? More like Cosmically depressed Titan.

That's how the character is in the comics too. Thanos, really in his mind, believes he's the hero. This was never about power for him.

[roboscorcher]

As a big Cap fan, with him easily going from "meh" to most favorite character in the MCU from Winter Soldier onward, I'm kind of surprised by the amount of negative response from other fans of his from the way his story ended. It made sense. I'm talking thematically, not the hangups people have about the AU/time travel logistics.

Tony and Steve's stories are pretty clearly meant to mirror each other and it's basic-bitch storytelling. Tony has been a mega-privileged person from the beginning, decided he'd use his power for better purposes when he didn't have to, and then even lucked out on the Snappening to have the family he wanted to finally settle down and be done. But since he can't just let something go, he decides to dive back in and die for the universe because he can't just ignore things, even if he was once a selfish person.

Steve couldn't watch a damn movie without turning it into an excuse to stand up for something and his natural inclination was to just dive on a grenade like it was breathing air. He decided to be a damn war criminal to back just one person based on what he believed to be right. But eventually, he made the decision to have a chance to live his life when he wasn't able to have one in the first place.

So yes, he's walking away from Bucky (who clearly knew the plan before he even time jumped) any hypothetical number of decades that he could be assisting the Avengers, all of that...but at the end of the day, isn't the entire reason people fight in order to get the opportunity to live happy and fulfilling lives? If there's no end to it for someone, it basically means that the struggle is meaningless. Eventually that selflessness is just destructive and martyrdom. It's the opposite of Tony's hedonism streak and just as bad.

Basically the message I'm being given is that Steve Rogers can't possibly end any possible way without dying on the battlefield like a fucking Klingon or being a war-bureaucrat via SHIELD leadership, which is...bizarre. The implication that Captain America [B]can't [/B]retire without it being some betrayal is pretty much saying that this very obvious metaphor for displaced veterans (return home changed, feel disconnected from civilian life, feel frozen in the time of when they served, can't find a place for themselves, etc.) should live in some weird perpetual nightmare of the inability to connect with a world outside fighting. Which is all kinds of fucked up.

Yeah. Cap's decision makes total sense in the context of the larger storyline. Although, thinking about it now, it's kinda effed up that Bucky isn't offered to join along as well. That's his best friend, and he probably wants to relive his past as well. Visit old friends and family...

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Doesn't make sense to me.

She was never appointed as International Police Officer, she has no legitimacy to interfere in every planet's internal affairs. Hell, even on Earth we had trouble with the local heroes during one full movie, but somehow the billion of planets in the universe will be perfectly fine that a pretty random girl comes and try to "solve" all the political issues that came with the snap ?

Plus, wtf ? All planets suffered the same thing as Earth : half of the people disappeared. So beyond a few rebellion/uprising, there is literally nothing to "solve". Earth is a perfect example, you didn't see Banner or Captain trying to "solve" anything, because there is nothing to solve if you're not trying to reverse the snap.

Marvel only had the legitimacy to focus on Earth (planet where she's from) and the Kree's planet (was that Hala we saw in the movie ? don't remember if that's mentioned) where she lived 20 years.

I'm sure we'll see more about her other planets in future movies. For now, it's not worth getting hung up over.

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So, saw this movie today. Lots of fun. Enjoyed it thoroughly. A bit confused on why Thanos (and Gamora and old Nebula) got dusted, since they still had a future to go to where Thanos got the stones, unless Nebula's short circuit caused a splinter timeline in which Thanos gets dusted there. Which I guess make a modicum of sense.


Also I guess Loki escaping with the Tesseract formed another splinter universe?

Are they setting up all these splinters as potential plot hooks for, say, Tessa Thompson's Thor, or the Guardians to deal with, etc?

Probably, but the real reason is that Thanos and his army couldn't die twice if they had gone with the time-loop route.