8.2. choice [Horde Player Character goes beastmode]

[Mehrunes]

But... why? Why would Sylvanas want you to go through with it? What does she gain out of Baine being rescued instead of executed, and more of loyal Horde being killed or injured in the process?

Sylvanas is secretly pro-Baine too, having caught Blanduitis from him. It's just her pride doesn't allow her to admit her newly-found perspective. So she engages in this nonsensical charade, in hopes that Baine and Anduin fix the Horde for her.

[Combatbutler]

On this, it might actually change. As I said earlier (and I sent a bug report), right now Thrall reacts to Alliance players as if he talks to Horde players. So the gossip options for the Alliance have not actually been written yet. I am not saying it will be changed but it could be.

I honestly don't expect them to change this stuff too much anymore

[Combatbutler]

Well they definitely need to change Thrall telling me how he understands how weird it is for me to work with the Alliance

It wouldn't be the first time they wave such nonsense through XD

I just don't trust them at all anymore, this entire xpack was just too much

[Combatbutler]

Well I did my duty and reported it (alongside the fact that the mini bosses at the end have WAY too much health).

Who doesn't like challenging trash, blizz just tried to bring a flavor of classic back in the modern era ;P

[Minikin]

What is that axe Thrall is wielding?

Storm breaker?

Cuz Mjolnir..got shaft...I mean...left him

[Mehrunes]

Ah so you'd have Sylvanas personally attack the PCs, Thrall, Jaina and Saurfang? I'm game.

I've already mentioned Sylvanas twice prior to this post in this specific subtopic, so yes. The thing is, if Blizzard kept her full power set in mind, Sylvanas walks over pretty much anyone sans maybe Malfurion when it comes to members of the playable faction.

She was already shattering armor and bones on an army scale with her voice back shortly after her resurrection, back when she was only a Banshee. A feat that scared even Arthas, especially in terms of long term, and that's when she was firmly his pawn and he didn't even fathom it would have ever changed. After she got freed and regained her body which apparently made her even stronger vide her phasing, her voice interrupted even Dar'khan. When he was using Anveena, i.e. the Sunwell, as his own private magic battery. Dar'khan was basically a Mage god at that point. Golden would need to pull powerups for Jaina out of her ass at least 20 more times for her to rival that. And in Before the Storm Anduin was thinking to himself how she could outright kill him with her voice.

Then there's the aforementioned phasing. Not explained in detail, but Blizzard did compare that to Kitty Pride from X-men. Who can phase at will. If Sylvanas is like that then she can phase in and out to avoid attacks and to create openings without issue no matter how long the fight lasts. Her body is so durable she needed to impale herself on Saronite, because the fall from the peak of Icecrown alone wouldn't kill her. She can rip a wolf's head off with her bare hands, which requires more strength than that's needed to kill a human with one punch.

On top of all of that she still has the marksmanship skills she gained during her life. Her aim is precise enough to kill a flying bird from a significant distance by shooting it directly in the eye (admittedly her own boasting IIRC) or strike Calia right in the heart also from significant difference while flying around on a bat. Except now she also uses boatloads of poisons, tips her arrows in Blight (strongest strains of which melt even rock) and empowers them with enough magic that she can destroy siege weaponry with one exploding arrow.

Each power of Sylvanas is already high tier on its own. Combine them all and she's extremely well rounded and practically impossible to counter. Which is why whenever Blizzard writes someone fighting her where the end result that's going to be forced no matter what is that her opponent survives, their plot contrivance of choice to get there is making Sylvanas gargle on the idiot ball and forget almost everything of what she's capable of.

[Combatbutler]

But they are not challenging, they just take forever.

Like some classic bosses...... I shouldn't have said that.

[Mehrunes]

I am making a distinction between characters and the narrative. You can choose to ignore the validity of that distinction, i.e. discussing the elements that make a setting what it is separately. I find value in that but if you don't agree with my argument I'm ok with that.

I'd agree in regards to other characters, but at this point Anduin isn't just (or even primarily) a character. He's first and foremost a plot device. You said it yourself at the start of this discussion, Anduin the character doesn't even pop up that often. Yet Anduin the plot device warps, twists and contorts the story around itself regardless.

[Combatbutler]

Each power of Sylvanas is already high tier on its own. Combine them all and she's extremely well rounded and practically impossible to counter. Which is why whenever Blizzard writes someone fighting her where the end result that's going to be forced no matter what is that her opponent survives, their plot contrivance of choice to get there is making Sylvanas gargle on the idiot ball and forget almost everything of what she's capable of.

It is the typical I have written myself into a corner, lets roll a dice and see which powers we ignore this time, it happens so often to wow characters it is beyond annoying.

[Mehrunes]

Golden is a paid writer. She is given a story and she just fits the characters around it, she doesn't pick the story. It is actually very common in fantasy; the ones in charge of the franchise pick a story and hire writers to flesh it out. I am not saying she is not obsessed with her pet character, I am just saying that Anduin serves the story, not the other way around.

Except I didn't even mention Golden there and I explicitly talked about the writers as a collective.

It is the typical I have written myself into a corner, lets roll a dice and see which powers we ignore this time, it happens so often to wow characters it is beyond annoying.

What you're saying implies a deliberate choice to ignore it though. Not just that, it also implies Blizzard's writers being able to admit to themselves that they have written themselves into a corner. And given how they think BfA's ending is going to be a masterpiece... Well, suffice to say, it's not particularly likely. You're too hasty to dismiss "we are so inept that we have forgotten all about that stuff so we make up new stuff as we go" as the explanation here.

[Jastall]

Everyone is some form of human. I challenge you to find me fantasy writers who can actually write races with alien motivations that are believable and consistent. They are but a handful. They are more common in scifi or horror but in fantasy the different races are the vast majority of time written as some idealized form of human. I mean I'd love to have e.g. Erikson write a game's lore but that's just not happening.

The Qunari in Dragon Age are the closest thing I found in a fantasy setting, having an utterly alien and (to us) illogical mindset when you dig into their lore and the reasoning for their actions. There are still holes of course, and some errors in consistency, yet they still feel more alien than the vast majority of actual aliens in Mass Effect, Bioware's sci-fi franchise/

But yeah in Warcraft the races are definitely humans with a different build, skin color and an exaggerated trait, hell half of the races are heavily based on real-life human stereotypes, like New Yorkers/Jews for Goblins, Victorian British for the Worgen or Jamaicans/Haitians for Trolls.

[Mehrunes]

Blizzard only really remembered that Sylvanas is this powerful now with BfA though. I don't disagree with what you present; all these abilities have been attributed to her. But if she has all these skills, half her story in the past makes no sense because she would have never lost her city to Varimathras, could have destroyed Genn and subdued Eyir or just killed everyone in that throne room in Undercity (except Alleria who seems to be even stronger).

Hence the part about plot contrivance. Genn's case is particularly grating, because she actually poisoned him. With poison strong enough that it made him lose consciousness and would have killed him if not treated. And Genn survived only because he was bailed by other Alliance characters. That Sylvanas (and the Horde PC waiting outside) apparently ignored because reasons. Of course there's the part about her not simply breaking every bone in his body and watching him crawl around at her feet as a disjointed fleshy mess when the fate of her entire race was on the line in the first place, but him getting bailed out just like that takes the candle.

Especially in a situation where she actually failed to preserve the future of her race due to Genn (and gargling on the idiot ball). Sylvanas completely lost her shit and lashed out in anger for less. And when someone monumentally pisses her off, she is unrelenting in her vengeance. But nah, let's just sit idly by as Genn is saved because that makes sense.

[Mehrunes]

Honestly I took it mostly as she did not act because Eyir could fuck her up (and she was just toying with him earlier). But honestly when you think about it, she should easily be able to take Eyir.

Eyir just teleported out. Which left only her and Genn who was either already unconscious or getting there. And she did nothing. And then (after the Horde PC left the post at the entrance to the temple to catch some butterflies or whatever) watched Genn's friends walk in and haul his unconscious ass out.

I mean, I get that she'd stare in the empty space where Eyir was moments before for a while, because she was watching her future slipping through her fingers. But as she was watching that empty space, given her established character she should be getting more and more pissed, starting to obsess about the ungodly calamities she'd bring upon Genn and then turn around, approach Genn with laser focus on him and go nuclear on his ass.

And at this point it's not even about power levels and Blizzard being inconsistent about it. Genn was practically defenseless at that moment. Sylvanas could have gotten completely depowered and she'd still be able to kill him even with a teaspoon.

Instead she channeled her inner Baine. That she never had prior or after that.

[Wyrt]

The only parts of Stormwind that are salvageable imo are the SI7 and the 7th Legion. Both are multiracial organizations based in Stormwind with members of all races (and even a goblin!) in prominent positions. If it was up to me I'd have changed the 7th Legion commander to be a dwarf (but would have kept Shaw, because Shaw is awesome for all that he is the one that has got us in this mess, TWICE). The rest of Stormwind suffers mostly from not actually being important. It's just there and it does not interact with the storyline. A Siege of Stormwind end could actually give the place a little color. It also doesn't help that the Stormwind zones Cataclysm revamp was a meme dumpster fire.

Ugh, no.

SI:7 is very much emblematic of the problem. Every other race is giving up their intelligence gathering to rely completely on humans for it. I don't give a flying shit if the human organization has non-humans in it.

Just think how different things would have gone in BfA if the night elves still had their own spies gathering information instead of relying solely on SI:7 to do it. The Horde would have had to fool multiple intelligence agencies to pull off what they did.

Putting non-humans into human organizations just makes things worse, not better. It makes it look like humans are just flat out superior to those other races. This is the same problem with the Kirin Tor and mages.

[Thage]

What is that axe Thrall is wielding?

I think it's a unique model based off the Durotan axe from the movie tie-in.

[Mehrunes]

And the story also proceeds to make no sense when Eyir treats the Alliance who saved her like scum.

Well, technically Skold-Ashil and the ending of Odyn's storyline (which is followed by a quest leading to the dungeon) can be done in any order. So in this case Blizzard has a chronological vagueness to hide behind, as it's not 100% certain that the dungeon takes place after the conclusion to Genn vs Sylvanas storyline.

[Wyrt]

Eh, I don't think the Night Elves have an intelligence agency. They had no need for one. What they have is scouts that are trained for guerilla warfare in natural settings; they have no reason to have people trained to work in an urban environment.

And that just makes night elves look stupid.

[Wyrt]

No, it makes them a civilization that has existed for thousands of years without having to confront a city-based enemy. Why would they have an intelligence arm in their military?

So their city doesn't get burned to the ground? Oh, wait, too late.

[Wyrt]

Yes, they should have been precognitive and started training an intelligence arm to their military a decade ago when there was no other city in Kalimdor. Or create one after that occured when they could easily depend on Alliance intel.

Yeah, that just makes night elves look stupid. And look, their stupidity of relying solely on humans got their city burned down.

[Feanoro]

Like some classic bosses...... I shouldn't have said that.

Comparing bosses then and now is apples to oranges. Far more "fuck you" boss mechanics now, far more abilities (my dps can heal up and has defensives? what?), totally different design philosophies and goals. Effectively, two different games that happen to share a name and IP.

Of course, one succeeded wildly, and the other started declining from inception, but...


More on topic, I love how "Let's stop pointlessly massacring Alliance while the world is dying and acting without any principles" is "Let's lick Anduin's boots."