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  1. #21
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain N View Post
    Oh you have no idea how stupid some Union Workers are.

    They'll gladly vote for anyone who shares their dislike for certain demographics and for anyone that they believe will keep them from paying taxes.
    Well they're just as stupid as the internet edge lords and Bernie Bros that are on here bashing unions.


    Firstly, they conflate all unions with the image of some white-working-class-he-man-in-Ohio from 1950. The Service unions are very different in attitudes than most of the Trades. Police and Firemen being even more distant.

    Working my way through college I was in both Teamsters and then in the Ironworkers. One definitely seemed to cultivate more entitled assholes that hate paying taxes, than the other. I always got the sense Police and Firemen skewed even more into entitled machismo.
    Of course it explains the hurt feelings, Bernie Bros being entitled misogynists themselves. Probably take the Firemen Endorsement of Biden as a personal betrayal.

    The NEA, SIEU, AFSCME, UAW, are the biggest unions, and have always favored Dems. Also no wonder... these unions are more diverse and represent way more women than the others. They also trying to grow more. These are the guys going into Fast Food. Trying to help organize "those people".


    I don't have the link on hand, but this political scientist had this great quote about 2016.

    "The average Trump voter is depicted as a union pipefitter in Ohio, whose sister has a pill problem. But the mean Trump voter is the guy's Dentist who own three houses."

    **important disclaimer!

    my contempt is specifically for berniebros, not all sanders supports. berniebros being just the most toxic of the bunch that are over represented on gamer forums, or Jacobin.com. Berniebros might also include conservatives sockpuppeting as european socialists, just to troll dems from the left. The way they apply their rage so specifically on US dems is weirdly peculiar.
    Last edited by Milchshake; 2019-05-02 at 09:13 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by MeanDrunkBecky View Post
    "The average Trump voter is depicted as a union pipefitter in Ohio, whose sister has a pill problem. But the mean Trump voter is the guy's Dentist who own three houses."
    As anecdotal as it is, the average Trump supporter I have seen isn't that.

    The main Trump supporters I have typically found have been a mix of people on welfare but think "THEY" deserve it while the others are just mooching. I know one of them who even goes as far as lying and claiming they aren't on welfare and haven't been when I know for a fact they were getting between $600-$800 a month on EBT and all of their 4 kids healthcare was medicare. But also called me a moocher for relying on the VA for a spinal injury.

    Or those who don't actually know how stuff works but thinks they do but at the same time, doesn't actually try to learn and just relies on Fox News as their primary news source. Typically good people who work typical jobs, but nothing as skilled as a dentist, typically more labor intensive stuff like electrician or factory worker or something like that.

    The more educated ones near universally went against Trump when it came to economic stuff.

  3. #23
    Immortal Fahrenheit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    And Biden gets money from union busters.
    /shrug

    If it comes down to Biden vs Trump the answer is obvious for people in organized labor unions.
    Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.
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  4. #24
    As someone who works as a financial analyst for a specific union i can tell you this i would push against Biden as hard as possible during the primary and have actually recommended people to go against him as a corporate democrat who actually voted for NAFTA ( this is the one i use the most often with a quick link on my phone to give the person i am talking to a direct line ). That being said the union i work with endorsed Clinton but i can tell you this almost none of those who worked for them actually voted for her. The winning platform is healthcare first and foremost and this tells you Trump understands the pulse of the nation with him openly talking about changing what is on the books currently.

  5. #25
    Immortal Fahrenheit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeezusisacasual View Post
    As someone who works as a financial analyst for a specific union i can tell you this i would push against Biden as hard as possible during the primary and have actually recommended people to go against him as a corporate democrat who actually voted for NAFTA ( this is the one i use the most often with a quick link on my phone to give the person i am talking to a direct line ). That being said the union i work with endorsed Clinton but i can tell you this almost none of those who worked for them actually voted for her. The winning platform is healthcare first and foremost and this tells you Trump understands the pulse of the nation with him openly talking about changing what is on the books currently.
    If healthcare is so critical there is no way anyone would vote for Trump. I can’t even fathom the reason why. Like, the GOP has a negative amount of ideas when it comes to healthcare. They’re still all in on overturning the ACA, but they’re just staying quiet because they know it’s a loser position for them after they had their asses handed to them in 2017.
    Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.
    You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Fahrenheit View Post
    If healthcare is so critical there is no way anyone would vote for Trump. I can’t even fathom the reason why. Like, the GOP has a negative amount of ideas when it comes to healthcare. They’re still all in on overturning the ACA, but they’re just staying quiet because they know it’s a loser position for them after they had their asses handed to them in 2017.
    I agree with you but he has already hinted at reforming healthcare because he understands how important it overall is. The Republicans will spout more of the same shit like insurance across state lines and various different ways to put lifetime caps etc which are all terrible and that being said knowing that the ACA was a right wing think tank idea but the common core voter has no idea about this.

  7. #27
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Most Unions are a business, that have fallen out of representing those that pay the dues a long time ago. I don't mean to suggest all Unions but most. It's primarly why Trump tries to tout police and fireman's union in the past.

    It's because if enough deals are exchanged different groups will play ball. The same could be said for Biden also. However at least his campaign is trying to get the conversation started vs Hillary's approach

    The truth is it could work and Biden is starting early.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Jettisawn View Post
    Trump ran on populism, but he hasn't delivered at all on it. So Trump will lose the majority of unions, and that is the real nail in Trump chances for 2020.
    You are forgetting the "I am to dumb to lose an election so clearly the results are fake" card.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    Most Unions are a business, that have fallen out of representing those that pay the dues a long time ago. I don't mean to suggest all Unions but most.
    This part, I honestly must disagree with and is actually part of the propaganda many spread to try and bash Unions to try and push people against having them.

    While they have some poor unions, I think the majority are actually pretty decent. It's just that people keep repeating what you did along with other similar stuff along with "Right to Freeload" laws that basically try and cut Unions off at the knees along with import workers and illegal labor used to break unions that has destroyed union membership and allowed for more crap to be pulled on the working class because of it.

  10. #30
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    This part, I honestly must disagree with and is actually part of the propaganda many spread to try and bash Unions to try and push people against having them.

    While they have some poor unions, I think the majority are actually pretty decent. It's just that people keep repeating what you did along with other similar stuff along with "Right to Freeload" laws that basically try and cut Unions off at the knees along with import workers and illegal labor used to break unions that has destroyed union membership and allowed for more crap to be pulled on the working class because of it.
    I think to pretend the things I said aren’t true is just another way to pander. I’m not saying I’m against Unions. I’m just saying to try to count on one you got them all is a bad idea.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    I think to pretend the things I said aren’t true is just another way to pander. I’m not saying I’m against Unions. I’m just saying to try to count on one you got them all is a bad idea.
    I am not saying there are bad unions, I know there are. I just don't think they make up the majority of them.

    Question, do you have any data to back up your claim that the majority are bad? I personally don't have any on my end either way at the moment, I will gladly admit that. But from all I have seen in my life, the majority of unions aren't actually too bad.

    I have seen good unions, I have seen bad unions, and the only thing worse than a bad union has ended up being no unions on companies that exploit that fact.

  12. #32
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    I am not saying there are bad unions, I know there are. I just don't think they make up the majority of them.

    Question, do you have any data to back up your claim that the majority are bad? I personally don't have any on my end either way at the moment, I will gladly admit that. But from all I have seen in my life, the majority of unions aren't actually too bad.

    I have seen good unions, I have seen bad unions, and the only thing worse than a bad union has ended up being no unions on companies that exploit that fact.
    I didn’t say the majority are bad. I said most are business as usual. Based on many I have known in unions and some that avoid them myself. I would say that most unions from the bottom up are disconnected.

    Unions are just another political group in many ways. I would say in most cases it’s better than nothing, but that depends on profession.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Fahrenheit View Post
    If healthcare is so critical there is no way anyone would vote for Trump. I can’t even fathom the reason why. Like, the GOP has a negative amount of ideas when it comes to healthcare. They’re still all in on overturning the ACA, but they’re just staying quiet because they know it’s a loser position for them after they had their asses handed to them in 2017.
    I would consider voting for Trump just so a different democrat can run in 2024.
    Biden will do nothing for healthcare, but minor insignificant changes. The system needs an overhaul and Biden is stuck in the past.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    I didn’t say the majority are bad. I said most are business as usual. Based on many I have known in unions and some that avoid them myself. I would say that most unions from the bottom up are disconnected.

    Unions are just another political group in many ways. I would say in most cases it’s better than nothing, but that depends on profession.
    Well, again, I am speaking of anecdotes on my part but....

    The local Smithfield plant, for the longest time, english was a second language there and you couldn't find any job that paid more than $8 an hour until you hit management and you typically had to be hired directly into it and you weren't going to get promoted into it. They tried to say that $8 was the most they could afford to pay. They also treated their workers like shit. Then a little over a decade or so ago they had a huge bust where they made national news where they actually caught them using massive numbers of illegals in the company and deported over a thousand of them, then had just as many others walk off in protest of those being deported. Afterward, the remaining workers immediately unionized.

    After that, they started treating their workers better, you could actually get promoted to manager and my friend started there at about $10 an hour and was at about $14 an hour within 2 years. And this was YEARS ago.


    Or Goodyear/Kelly Springfield, my father worked there for years and they had to strike before to keep what they had. But, during the 90's my father was making about $24 an hour and pulling in about $1,000 a week in pay take home. If it weren't for the unions, they would have been making less than half that, same with the benefits.

  15. #35
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Well, again, I am speaking of anecdotes on my part but....

    The local Smithfield plant, for the longest time, english was a second language there and you couldn't find any job that paid more than $8 an hour until you hit management and you typically had to be hired directly into it and you weren't going to get promoted into it. They tried to say that $8 was the most they could afford to pay. They also treated their workers like shit. Then a little over a decade or so ago they had a huge bust where they made national news where they actually caught them using massive numbers of illegals in the company and deported over a thousand of them, then had just as many others walk off in protest of those being deported. Afterward, the remaining workers immediately unionized.

    After that, they started treating their workers better, you could actually get promoted to manager and my friend started there at about $10 an hour and was at about $14 an hour within 2 years. And this was YEARS ago.


    Or Goodyear/Kelly Springfield, my father worked there for years and they had to strike before to keep what they had. But, during the 90's my father was making about $24 an hour and pulling in about $1,000 a week in pay take home. If it weren't for the unions, they would have been making less than half that, same with the benefits.
    That’s awesome I’m not against unions. But right now we are talking politics. All unions are not the same. In those regards. Hell in some cases unions like with nurses or teachers or cops. Just allow a lot of bad lazy and corrupt members to get rich and drive up cost.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    That’s awesome I’m not against unions. But right now we are talking politics. All unions are not the same. In those regards. Hell in some cases unions like with nurses or teachers or cops. Just allow a lot of bad lazy and corrupt members to get rich and drive up cost.
    Understood, you are saying that the Unions will just go as normal. And yeah, can definitely see ones where those in some unions with seniority get lazy and the leaders can get greedy. Seen those unions too unfortunately.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayma View Post
    I would consider voting for Trump just so a different democrat can run in 2024.
    Biden will do nothing for healthcare, but minor insignificant changes. The system needs an overhaul and Biden is stuck in the past.
    I wouldn't vote for Trump, but I'm really understanding this argument more and more. It's like the country is trying to progress on these issues but the democrats have tried really hard to pull back, two elections in a row. Bernie Sanders and other dramatically progressive progressives will not go away simply by throwing "Bernie Bros" nicknames onto their supporters. They'll go away when you give them god damn healthcare and god damn livable wages instead of fretting over "oh boy howdy we can't be too radical or we'll scare away the mythical independent that doesn't want basic services, heavens me."
    Last edited by Grapemask; 2019-05-03 at 02:10 AM.

  18. #38
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapemask View Post
    I wouldn't vote for Trump, but I'm really understanding this argument more and more. It's like the country is trying to progress on these issues but the democrats have tried really hard to pull back, two elections in a row. Bernie Sanders and other dramatically progressive progressives will not go away simply by throwing "Bernie Bros" nicknames onto their supporters. They'll go away when you give them god damn healthcare and god damn livable wages instead of fretting over "oh boy howdy we can't be too radical or we'll scare away the mythical independent that doesn't want basic services, heavens me."
    Two elections in a row...?

    Dems talked more about healthcare more than any other issue in 2018. A greater percentage of there ads were about healthcare. The GOP was running away from it. Trump and Paul Ryan spent all of 2017 trying to erode healthcare.
    But hay, I'm really understanding this argument more and more.

    But i guess you two were more interested in impressing your Trump friends than really paying attention to what was happening.

    I dont think Dems can do anything to win these votes. Nancy Pelosi could deliver a unicorn to a berniebro's house. He would just complain that it is the wrong color.

  19. #39
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Give Sethrak Blizz View Post
    Nice to see that the leftists turn against organized labor the moment they don't support their candidate. So much for supporting the working class
    Yeah, I've noticed there's a cult personality with Bernie that's dangerously similar to Trump. They want Bernie, and only Bernie, and anyone who threatens Bernie's chances is a sellout, a crook, fake, etc etc.
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  20. #40
    Old God Captain N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butter Emails View Post
    Yeah, I've noticed there's a cult personality with Bernie that's dangerously similar to Trump. They want Bernie, and only Bernie, and anyone who threatens Bernie's chances is a sellout, a crook, fake, etc etc.
    I don't disagree with you but with all the weird shit that we've seen with troll farms and such over the last few years it's getting difficult to discern who is actually the Bernie or Bust people and who is just a troll trying to create something that isn't really there.

    Fortunately this go-around there's more than just Bernie talking about healthcare, and better working conditions/wages for the American worker.
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