Glass cannon is dead for raids, we are essentially an intellect buff now

[vsb]

I would take a little fix for a frost RNG dependency, making BF procs more reliable. I really love GS build, but sometimes RNG gods hates you so much, they making you cast 24 Frost Bolts to get a proc, delivered by Ebonbolt coming off cooldown. Maybe making it similar to Enhanced Pyrotechnics, each non-BF cast adds 10% extra chance of getting BF.

Are you spending Ebonbolt when you NEED BF proc or you spending it on CD? I've found that if I'm keeping ebonbolt for BF, I almost never have problems. But when I tried to play Ebonbolt like guides suggest (spend it on CD), I often had those unlucky streaks.

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Guys, does fire mage requires two PvP trinkets? I hate PvP, but those trinkets sim so high on bloodmallet.

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What I'm thinking about mage specs:

Fire spec should have strong multi dot talents. With recent raids design it's obvious that multi dots classes are gods and mages are meh. It's stupid to have single priest spec perform better than ANY pure dps class spec.

Living bomb should spread to nearby targets on crit ticks and explosions. basically if you have two mobs close to each other, you need to cast living bomb once and then it's forever on them. If you press living bomb on target with living bomb, it BOOMs and refreshes.

There should be talent which turns a lot of your damage from your spells (fireball, etc) into ignition dot that lasts a lot (e.g. 20 seconds). Currently that dot is kind of weak. With this talent you are like warlock, when majority of your damage will be dealt with this dot, so you can multidot different targets.

So fire mage is either classic fire spec with single target oriented gameplay similar to its current design but with few talent choices it turns into very good multi dot class which can do insane damage on stacked mobs, so fire is viable in M+ big long pools, but also can keep very competititve damage with other multi dot classes on council-style bosses by keeping and feeding fire dots.

Frost should be 2-target cleave. Like it's now, but even better. That should be his strength. Or he can be single target oriented or moderate aoe oriented with slows. Basically like it's now, but just better cleave, for example frost bolts should cleave too, etc.

Arcane should be 4-target cleave. Again, like it's now, but much stronger. Or single target with highest DPS in the game. Also mana management should be more interesting.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

I understand that, what I meant was that they might be intentionally putting less work into retail and leaving classes bland and tasteless so people would stop caring about retail and go to classic.

Fair, but an odd decision if thought out to the end. Classic is a known quantity with very little gameplay in both rotation and boss mechanics. It's been done, players are much better these days, and have both a very firm grasp on theorycraft and access to bossmods. People will try it out, hell even I want to re-experience the 10 hour war without servers dying, but in the end it's not a sustainable draw. If there's anyone with a brain at Blizzard, and I know that's apparently asking a lot these days, they understand that. No one's being pulled to make Classic work, except possibly server engineers, because the design work is already done. There's no tuning, no new mechanics that have odd interactions, no needing to make sure every spec is balanced. Hell, let's not forget, there are specs that just will not work in Classic, and that will not change.

Whatever went wrong with BfA class design, be it people quit mid-development or whoever is doing class design is so far up their own ass they mistake shit for stars (or both, from what I've heard), the overarching philosophy Blizzard has taken up to not change specs between expansions is clearly overriding any real hopes at salvaging BfA. Hence the drastic measures such as that 8.2 trait that basically gives everyone infinite cooldowns. Attempting to drive players to Classic from Live is not a logical move given the complaints of the current game being much worse in Classic. Class design was a joke, and while there is no grind for most, there was a ridiculous grind for herbs for raiders.

I would really like a BfA development postmortem post from Blizzard. I would also really like for them to drop this notion that they can't change classes between expansions due to sub losses from people too stubborn to relearn their spec, or at least have a comparison of that vs sub loss caused by shoddy design that can't change.

[schwarzkopf]

F
This way all three specs can have an identity and excel in an area.

Add back the cheap cost for Spellsteal that Arcane used to have as well.

[Kreo]

Are you spending Ebonbolt when you NEED BF proc or you spending it on CD? I've found that if I'm keeping ebonbolt for BF, I almost never have problems. But when I tried to play Ebonbolt like guides suggest (spend it on CD), I often had those unlucky streaks.

Depending on the EB timer and what exactly going on, like do i need to move soon, number of icicles etc. Can't put exact number when I used it on cd and when i'm holding it for a proc. RNG is RNG, and my solution would fix that to some degree.

[Nitros14]

You definitely care about mana with three equipose. They did do something to help fix it.

[Video Games]

I was bored so I went on the ptr and did thermal void, Vision of Perfection as major, engine as minor, 3 frigid grasp and I was hitting like 70k ice lances and 20k icicles. I wont say it was super fun but it was something different.

[nickseng]

I was bored so I went on the ptr and did thermal void, Vision of Perfection as major, engine as minor, 3 frigid grasp and I was hitting like 70k ice lances and 20k icicles. I wont say it was super fun but it was something different.

Just FYI, you can hit 100k Ice lances now using the Orb build

[Video Games]

Just FYI, you can hit 100k Ice lances now using the Orb build

Im not sure what that is. 3 packed ice?

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Im not sure what that is. 3 packed ice?

3 PI, 2 WO, 1 FF, LW/Rune/SI/Ray, Orb>Rune>dump procs. I'll update the guide with it, I just have to figure out how to better format for multiple builds now that we've got three of them.

[Video Games]

3 PI, 2 WO, 1 FF, LW/Rune/SI/Ray, Orb>Rune>dump procs. I'll update the guide with it, I just have to figure out how to better format for multiple builds now that we've got three of them.

That sounds kinda fun but im just stuck on mythic jaina as fire so I am not allowed fun.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

That sounds kinda fun but im just stuck on mythic jaina as fire so I am not allowed fun.

It's also the opposite of a good Jaina build in general since it cleaves so bloody hard. Your best non-SI is FR since you're Blizz spam on CD.

It's super weird but it absolutely destroys Cabal. Cleave like 180k Lances inside Rune with a 9 stack debuff.

[Nitros14]

It's also the opposite of a good Jaina build in general since it cleaves so bloody hard. Your best non-SI is FR since you're Blizz spam on CD.

It's super weird but it absolutely destroys Cabal. Cleave like 180k Lances inside Rune with a 9 stack debuff.

To be fair lots of guilds working on the boss now kill the elemental and cleave down the two little ones. Easier to heal and no interrupts (or cancel bloodlust macros).

[Vynestra]

the fact we're not being touched in 8.2 makes me sick to my stomach.

I really hate whoever the fuck is in charge of mage class design.

I hate to armchair dev but mages fucking suck, jesus christ, im so sick of it.

Going to raid every tues/thurs and have absolutely no hope of ever actually being anywhere meaningful on the dps list, fighting to compete just for top 10 is like, my only goal.

Imagine being so shit at dps you feel accomplished breaking top 10 dps of your raid which has 2 tanks 4 healers and 14 dps, or sometimes 13.

And that breaking "top 10" is literally an accomplishment.

Words cannot describe how infuriating it is to me. Mages are in such a shit position and it's like they don't give a single fuck.


Mages are not a dps class, they're a support class atm. If AI was not brought back, we'd be toast. AI, spellsteal, remove curse, our interrupt, and slowfall for mekka are literally the only reason mages are brought. Pure utility.

[ovine]

the fact we're not being touched in 8.2 makes me sick to my stomach.

I really hate whoever the fuck is in charge of mage class design.

I hate to armchair dev but mages fucking suck, jesus christ, im so sick of it.

Going to raid every tues/thurs and have absolutely no hope of ever actually being anywhere meaningful on the dps list, fighting to compete just for top 10 is like, my only goal.

Imagine being so shit at dps you feel accomplished breaking top 10 dps of your raid which has 2 tanks 4 healers and 14 dps, or sometimes 13.

And that breaking "top 10" is literally an accomplishment.

Words cannot describe how infuriating it is to me. Mages are in such a shit position and it's like they don't give a single fuck.


Mages are not a dps class, they're a support class atm. If AI was not brought back, we'd be toast. AI, spellsteal, remove curse, our interrupt, and slowfall for mekka are literally the only reason mages are brought. Pure utility.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you unhappy with the class at all?

[Trumpcat]

the fact we're not being touched in 8.2 makes me sick to my stomach.

I really hate whoever the fuck is in charge of mage class design.

I hate to armchair dev but mages fucking suck, jesus christ, im so sick of it.

Going to raid every tues/thurs and have absolutely no hope of ever actually being anywhere meaningful on the dps list, fighting to compete just for top 10 is like, my only goal.

Imagine being so shit at dps you feel accomplished breaking top 10 dps of your raid which has 2 tanks 4 healers and 14 dps, or sometimes 13.

And that breaking "top 10" is literally an accomplishment.

Words cannot describe how infuriating it is to me. Mages are in such a shit position and it's like they don't give a single fuck.


Mages are not a dps class, they're a support class atm. If AI was not brought back, we'd be toast. AI, spellsteal, remove curse, our interrupt, and slowfall for mekka are literally the only reason mages are brought. Pure utility.

It is so sad that this rage is completely justified. Pure dps class without a single spec which is anywhere near the top performers.

I've been a Mage since my day one back in Vanilla. This is not the first time Mages have no viability among the top tier dps, but it definitely feels the worst now with so much challenging and competitive end game content. It feels the worst to not be great despite your great efforts when it matters the most.

[Clozer]

Middle of the pack is reasonable and fine. Not everyone can be top 3 every single time.

[mrgreenthump]

Middle of the pack is reasonable and fine. Not everyone can be top 3 every single time.

It'd be nice indeed, but as we are battling with BM hunter on the worst performing ranged spec with all our specs.. Middle of the pack is not where we currently are.

[Sageless]

Middle of the pack is reasonable and fine. Not everyone can be top 3 every single time.

It is really sad though that there are 7 classes that outperform Frost on it's niche fight (Jadefire, two targets close together). It doesn't help that the last couple of fights in BoD are basically a big FU to mages. And lastly anyone that played a mage in Legion will know how gutted this class is and how much of the fun has been 'pruned' away.

Being needed just because your raid needs AI, or decurses on Conclave is not conducive for fun. I guess that's why my old raid team went from 3 mages, to one that would rather play his Warlock, but can't because of the need for AI.
I didn't help either since I am on hiatus and levelling a Warlock myself to see how that plays. Having not played it in Legion I have the benefit of ignorance on what was pruned away from them, and due to that can enjoy its playstyle.

To be fair, being middle of the pack wouldn't be terrible if the gameplay was engaging and fun. Unfortunately we aren't really middle of the pack, especially not on fights that still matter, and Mage gameplay is clunky and unforgiving.

Better stack up on those Intellect Scrolls for the Eternal Palace raid

[Clozer]

It is really sad though that there are 7 classes that outperform Frost on it's niche fight (Jadefire, two targets close together). It doesn't help that the last couple of fights in BoD are basically a big FU to mages. And lastly anyone that played a mage in Legion will know how gutted this class is and how much of the fun has been 'pruned' away.

Being needed just because your raid needs AI, or decurses on Conclave is not conducive for fun. I guess that's why my old raid team went from 3 mages, to one that would rather play his Warlock, but can't because of the need for AI.
I didn't help either since I am on hiatus and levelling a Warlock myself to see how that plays. Having not played it in Legion I have the benefit of ignorance on what was pruned away from them, and due to that can enjoy its playstyle.

To be fair, being middle of the pack wouldn't be terrible if the gameplay was engaging and fun. Unfortunately we aren't really middle of the pack, especially not on fights that still matter, and Mage gameplay is clunky and unforgiving.

Better stack up on those Intellect Scrolls for the Eternal Palace raid

So what's your issue? Playstyle or numbers? If mage was in top 3 im 100% certain you wouldnt complain. Guys always seem to have gameplay issues if it's in fact they just unreasonable think they deserve to be top 3 number wise.

[Trumpcat]

Middle of the pack is reasonable and fine. Not everyone can be top 3 every single time.

As a pure dps class with the lowest dps from all ranged classes you don't get to enter high m+ stones or serious raid groups unless they need int buff.
How come 4 ranged specs like Afflilock, SPriest, Boomkin and Enh Shaman can be top tier, but Mages should be OK to not be on the chart at all?

Neither reasonable nor fine.