New Classes Vs Change

[arkanon]

Once again you show that you haven't been paying attention.

You can buff, collect scrap from, maintain, and position turrets without "running around". This isn't the Shaman class, regardless of how much you wish that was the case.

ok cool, let me fix that criticism for you:

"So you want us micro managing turrets, collecting scrap, buffing them, building them, maintaining them, and they are not even a core part of the class? yikes......"

[Triceron]

Again, that completely depends on implementation and how an upgrade system for the turrets would work. For example, in HotS there is a turret upgrade that increases its range if the Tinker is near it. In addition, a turret's static nature isn't a huge deal if you can project it around the field and summon multiple turrets at a time. The issue with Searing Totem is that you could only summon one, and you had to place it at your standing location. For a caster spec or a melee spec like Elemental and Enhance, that's a burden. For a physical ranged spec that's a different situation entirely.

I also disagree that a moveable turret would be basically the same as demonology imps. Their mechanical nature opens up options that the demonic imp simply can't replicate.

You are absolutely right, it depends on the implementation. And my reply was very specific about answering that.

1. Your examples are generally terrible for WoWs pace and flow. Repairing Turrets is worse than keeping pets well fed. Picking up turret parts is unfun. Gazlowe works because resource collection is built into HotS like regen globes, butcher meat or Deckard potions. WoW is a 3rd person MMO with limited field of vision, terrible for finding scrap among spell effects and fields of corpses.

2. Turret gameplay is terrible for rotations. You run into the same problem demonology had for years - the feeling that you arent the one dealing damage. Any micromanagement of turrets is bad.

3. Imp is a moving turret, if you want that gameplay play a Demo Lock.

There is a good way of using turrets though, and thats if they are situational fire-and-forget items. This is why they have been left to professions, garrisons and now Mechagon. They are great for open world content and situational pvp. They are not ideal for any class rotation. This may work in a different action RPG or MMO, but WoW has phased that out and boss encounters are being designed without searing totems and static auto attackers in mind.

[Teriz]

ok cool, let me fix that criticism for you:

"So you want us micro managing turrets, collecting scrap, buffing them, building them, maintaining them, and they are not even a core part of the class? yikes......"

So dropping a configuration of 3 turrets on a location (like an AoE), pressing an ability (or cool down) to make your turrets simultaneously do something more powerful to a target, and pushing a button to draw the scrap to you when they expire is your example of "micro-managing"?

Okay.

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You are absolutely right, it depends on the implementation. And my reply was very specific about answering that.

1. Your examples are generally terrible for WoWs pace and flow. Repairing Turrets is worse than keeping pets well fed. Picking up turret parts is unfun. Gazlowe works because resource collection is built into HotS like regen globes, butcher meat or Deckard potions. WoW is a 3rd person MMO with limited field of vision, terrible for finding scrap among spell effects and fields of corpses.

See Health Spheres and Chi Spheres (Monk Class) and Soul Fragments (Demon Hunter). It's the exact same principle, and it works just fine.

2. Turret gameplay is terrible for rotations. You run into the same problem demonology had for years - the feeling that you arent the one dealing damage. Any micromanagement of turrets is bad.

Mainly because the Demons were fire and forget for the majority of their existence. Blizzard added things like command demon and Demonic Tyrant to make the experience more interactive. As mentioned before, you could have abilities tied to turrets. For example, while your turrets are firing, you could have an ability that hits a target with a large blast that stuns them, or (like in HotS) your turrets could mimic one of your abilities like a massive laser beam or a stream of fire. If a target is standing in the "center" of your turret configuration, perhaps you could perform an AoE ability from your turrets that effects that target? Alternatively, if you have allies standing in the center of your configuration, perhaps they could receive some sort of benefit? Maybe if you stand in the center of your turret configuration, the turrets have more range?

There's plenty of ways you can make turret play engaging and interesting.

3. Imp is a moving turret, if you want that gameplay play a Demo Lock.

Again, you can't change what the Imp fires, the Imp's rate of fire, you can't upgrade the Imp into something else, you can't collect resources from the Imp, you can't have the Imps create a field within their radius to cause various effects, etc. In short, it simply isn't the same thing.

[arkanon]

So dropping a configuration of 3 turrets on a location (like an AoE), pressing an ability (or cool down) to make your turrets simultaneously do something more powerful to a target, and pushing a button to draw the scrap to you when they expire is your example of "micro-managing"?

Okay.

So why have them at all? if they are just a random part of your rotation anyway, and its just "press X on cooldown" with no thought or depth, why have them? why not give the mech the abilities? Why have something that requires micro management, but is not an integral part of your dps?

[tru]

Nothing new should be added when they've buggered nearly everything about specs with BFA. So much will have to be done if they do ad something new next go around I'll gave no hope for anything else. But hey maybe they'll get the point when/if vanilla takes off and nobody wants to play this garbage anymore. Business 101 do what you did when you had 12 million subs.

[Triceron]

Mainly because the Demons were fire and forget for the majority of their existence. Blizzard added things like command demon and Demonic Tyrant to make the experience more interactive. As mentioned before, you could have abilities tied to turrets. For example, while your turrets are firing, you could have an ability that hits a target with a large blast that stuns them, or (like in HotS) your turrets could mimic one of your abilities like a massive laser beam or a stream of fire. If a target is standing in the "center" of your turret configuration, perhaps you could perform an AoE ability from your turrets that effects that target? Alternatively, if you have allies standing in the center of your configuration, perhaps they could receive some sort of benefit? Maybe if you stand in the center of your turret configuration, the turrets have more range?

There's plenty of ways you can make turret play engaging and interesting.

True, which is why they did that for Searing Totem. Oh wait...

Again, you can't change what the Imp fires, the Imp's rate of fire, you can't upgrade the Imp into something else, you can't collect resources from the Imp, you can't have the Imps create a field within their radius to cause various effects, etc. In short, it simply isn't the same thing.

Micromanagement its not fun. Its not because they cant change an imps projectiles, its because it doesnt even sound fun. Again, you could give Mages a spell they can customize to their hearts extent, but at the end of the day its just a spell you use in your rotation and your fun comes from engaging in moment to moment gameplay, not what glyph you used to change your spell effects.

[arkanon]

Nothing new should be added when they've buggered nearly everything about specs with BFA. So much will have to be done if they do ad something new next go around I'll gave no hope for anything else. But hey maybe they'll get the point when/if vanilla takes off and nobody wants to play this garbage anymore. Business 101 do what you did when you had 12 million subs.

I have said this multiple times - fix what exists before adding anything new. I should have been clearer, that is my intention here. Combine something new, with something old, use that opportunity to freshen up specs, give players something new, while also addressing current concerns. My fear is that they try to gloss over the serious issues with class design by simply adding more classes.

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True, which is why they did that for Searing Totem. Oh wait...


Micromanagement its not fun. Its not because they cant change an imps projectiles, its because it doesnt even sound fun. Again, you could give Mages a spell they can customize to their hearts extent, but at the end of the day its just a spell you use in your rotation and your fun comes from engaging in moment to moment gameplay, not what glyph you used to change your spell effects.

Again, something i have pushed for a while now - It doesnt matter how much paint and stickers you put on ya mums honda civic if it is auto and has flat tyres. The spit polish is fine, but focus on the core gameplay mechanics of classes and specs. i just think there is a real opportunity there to address those concerns, while still giving ppl something new. cheers.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Micromanagement its not fun. Its not because they cant change an imps projectiles, its because it doesnt even sound fun. Again, you could give Mages a spell they can customize to their hearts extent, but at the end of the day its just a spell you use in your rotation and your fun comes from engaging in moment to moment gameplay, not what glyph you used to change your spell effects.

Hey speak for yourself, if my cone of cold looked like Jaina's, I'd certainly feel like an anime badass as well and would have fun

[arkanon]

Hey speak for yourself, if my cone of cold looked like Jaina's, I'd certainly feel like an anime badass as well and would have fun

I am all for spell visual alterations - i would LOVE to see the glyph system massively expanded on to add things like this, and green fire is just the best. This is part of the reason i liked the mage tower - visual only upgrades of iconic items. Very cool. I wont speak for Triceron, but what i will say is i agree with them, however if the core gameplay is fun and engaging, im cool with visual upgrades as you describe.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I am all for spell visual alterations - i would LOVE to see the glyph system massively expanded on to add things like this, and green fire is just the best. This is part of the reason i liked the mage tower - visual only upgrades of iconic items. Very cool. I wont speak for Triceron, but what i will say is i agree with them, however if the core gameplay is fun and engaging, im cool with visual upgrades as you describe.

I was only half serious and I agree with your basic premise that the core gameplay needs to be solid first. I just wanted to bring up that the look and feel also play a role depending on the person.

[arkanon]

I was only half serious and I agree with your basic premise that the core gameplay needs to be solid first. I just wanted to bring up that the look and feel also play a role depending on the person.

Sound is huge for me, i remember Fury when half their abilities sounded like a slap with a damp bus ticket - completely ruined my personal enjoyment of the spec.

[Shinrael]

I don't play LoL, but looking at a spotlight, it looks like a normal MM hunter, just with "light" visuals. That's one way to go in the future: custom visuals for specs.


About Dark Rangers, the idea I have Blizzard could go is something similar to Diablo Demon Hunters. We don't have that kind of gameplay, I think.
It would be a mid range glass cannon with high mobility. Needs to keep distance, but keep attacking the target or need to start building up dmg from the start.
They could do one spec lean towards the ranger aspect (shadow arrows, rolling away, etc.), and the other spec towards the magical aspect (ghost attack, mind control, etc.).

Another problem with Dark Rangers is that they are exclusive for the Horde. I don't see banshees joining the Alliance in the near future. They could bend the lore to fit it into the alliance with lightbound undead, and make a Bright Ranger, though.

I showed you a piece of artwork as I was refering to the theme. The gameplay is a different story. Although if we have to be specific, the gameplay of Varus is much different and honestly more entertaining than current Marksmanship hunter. I am particularly fond of skill shots which is what his long-cast arrow attack is. He charges for 2 seconds and then launches an arrow in a line and pierces everything it passes through. In WoW we had Piercing Shot which had a similar effect but it being target-locked and not skill shot changes a lot for me. Regardless, I don't care much about the gameplay implementation - as long as it is fun anything is okay with me. The theme is more important. A light-based archer. I just like Holy the most among the 6 magic schools and my favourite weapons are greatswords and longbows.

[Lindon]

Unlike Dark Rangers and Necromancers, you really can't morph any of the WoW classes into a Tinker class.

You can't morph a class into tinkers but you can copy/paste engineering to make a tinker.

[bloodmoth13]

I think they could remove class restrictions from characters and allow players to pick 4 semi related specs from a pool of all specs.

All specs will be divided into armor classes, magic schools and weapon types.
A few examples of where current specs would fall: Arcane mage - Arcane school, light armor, spellcaster. Outlaw rogue - Militant school, medium armor, melee fighter. Retribution paladin - Holy School, heavy armor melee fighter. Beast mastery hunter - Nature school, medium armor, archer

Characters are restricted to either only choosing from their armor class or magic school.

Magic schools would be based on the 'magic map' from chronicles, so the 6 main ones being Void, Light, Death, Fel, Arcane and Nature.

Other schools would be Shamanism (access to all elemental schools), militant (arms warrior, prot warrior, outlaw rogue, marksman hunter. just the vanilla soldier stuff) and perhaps technology if they decide to add in tinker (which could produce more than a few specs)

With this system, you could easily add in 'classes' that wouldnt be an option before since they wouldnt have enough for a full spec or had too much overlap with other specs. A necromancer for example, in my opinion, is only worth 1 spec, a light armor death school caster. death cultist and dark ranger specs would both also be AWESOME to see added into the game, but wouldnt make sense bunched into one class.

Some examples of interesting specs that could be added but dont warrant a full class:
Shadow hunter (Shaman school archer spec), Dark ranger (Death school archer spec), Zealot (Light school agile fighter spec), Cultist (light fighter version of death knights) Battle Mage (Arcane School heavy armored warrior)

all of these warrant a single spec but NOT a class and its a shame they arent faithfully represented since each one fills a strong thematic niche.

[arkanon]

Some examples of interesting specs that could be added but dont warrant a full class:
Shadow hunter (Shaman school archer spec), Dark ranger (Death school archer spec), Zealot (Light school agile fighter spec), Cultist (light fighter version of death knights) Battle Mage (Arcane School heavy armored warrior)

all of these warrant a single spec but NOT a class and its a shame they arent faithfully represented since each one fills a strong thematic niche.

I will give a full reply tomorow, because i REALLY like your train of thought. But for now, i will just say i totally get what you are trying to suggest - the last bolded part in particular.

[Sencha]

Agree. 36 specs is more than enough and it's already a nightmare from a balance standpoint. No need to add new class but they need to rework some specs. Most of them are : "maintain a buff / resource builder / resource spender".

[Teriz]

So why have them at all?

Because multiple turrets pinging a target over time can be a significant DPS contributor. Which is why Shaman could never summon more than one Searing Totem. In addition, turrets are robotic/mechanical devices, which lends themselves to the Tinker class fantasy.

if they are just a random part of your rotation anyway, and its just "press X on cooldown" with no thought or depth, why have them?

Who said they would have zero thought or depth or be a random part of your rotation? I was merely showing how simple the foundational gameplay would be. Blizzard could make that gameplay as simple or as complex as they like.

why not give the mech the abilities? Why have something that requires micro management, but is not an integral part of your dps?

If you actually read my concept, you would see that I did give the mech abilities as well.

[bloodmoth13]

Agree. 36 specs is more than enough and it's already a nightmare from a balance standpoint. No need to add new class but they need to rework some specs. Most of them are : "maintain a buff / resource builder / resource spender".

There are a few other gameplay paradigms that they could pull from, but i think in essence that is what most successful specs have. A resource just means you get more control over when you use an ability and without a resource you wind up with just maintaining a priority order.

The problem with wow design is that DPS is pretty much solely input focused. How you aim your abilities and such is largely irrelevant and what your opponent does is rarely important. Because of that, specs need compelling inputs to make them interesting, but there are only a finite amount of inputs available.

Some ways to increase variance would be pushing the design into more output focus or increasing foe interaction (dodging abilities for example). If how you use your ability (aim for example) impacts its output then that adds another level of gameplay.

FPS aiming i dont think is an option, and 'skillshots' work great for 2d games or even FPS games but not so much with wow since you need to target terrain.

Tanks and Healers remove most interaction dps would experience with an enemy.

[Kaver]

So why have them at all? if they are just a random part of your rotation anyway, and its just "press X on cooldown" with no thought or depth, why have them? why not give the mech the abilities? Why have something that requires micro management, but is not an integral part of your dps?

To be fair, you can apply that logic to a lot of aspects in the game. For example the Unholy DK pet.

Some things can just be cool features without having any larger impact on the game.

[Teriz]

True, which is why they did that for Searing Totem. Oh wait...

What they did or did not do for Searing totem is truly irrelevant to this topic.

Micromanagement its not fun. Its not because they cant change an imps projectiles, its because it doesnt even sound fun. Again, you could give Mages a spell they can customize to their hearts extent, but at the end of the day its just a spell you use in your rotation and your fun comes from engaging in moment to moment gameplay, not what glyph you used to change your spell effects.

Uh, but they do change the Imp's rate of fire by allowing you to produce a lot of Imps at a time. In addition, Warlocks have quite a bit of Micromanagement when it comes to their demons, and Demonology would be the most obvious example of this situation. The difference here is that Warlocks have to juggle multiple types of demons while a Tinker would only have to manage one type of turret. When done right, there are plenty of players that LOVE that level of complex interaction and gameplay with their summons/pets.

Part of the demand for a Necromancer class also comes from that desire for that very type of gameplay.