Veng underperforming in mythic+?

[dirtybrew]

I think the main issue is that Vengeance it is extremely comp reliant. A Frost mage is mandatory because Vengeance kiting is actually really bad without a personal spammable AOE snare whereas Blood has a lot more flexibility in comp since it kites better on it's even with it's shit mobility because of the almost spammable 90% snare. Basically Vengeance is much more reliant on the team and their abilities than other than blood which has a tool for situation. 1st boss in Tol Dagur is aids as blood on necrotic. Only situation i've felt helplessNDdependent on teammates. where as on vengeance you just roll over dead if the group doesn't peel for you on trash packs during spikes downtime or have a really on point healer on certain tyrannical bosses.

[Tech614]

I think the main issue is that Vengeance it is extremely comp reliant. A Frost mage is mandatory because Vengeance kiting is actually really bad without a personal spammable AOE snare whereas Blood has a lot more flexibility in comp since it kites better on it's even with it's shit mobility because of the almost spammable 90% snare. Basically Vengeance is much more reliant on the team and their abilities than other than blood which has a tool for situation. 1st boss in Tol Dagur is aids as blood on necrotic. Only situation i've felt helplessNDdependent on teammates. where as on vengeance you just roll over dead if the group doesn't peel for you on trash packs during spikes downtime or have a really on point healer on certain tyrannical bosses.

I have yet to have an issue with any tyranical boss survival wise. It's purely trash that can be an issue with bad comps or especially with bad dps. Even still, chains into a well placed IS will give you a full reset for the healer to top you off and get a spikes charge up on almost every trash pack so while a frost mage helps it's by no means required.

[jaksan]

I started this tread way back and how fucking right wasn't I? Finally we are seeing some buffs but I must say I am not happy with them. The migation thing is a step but soul cleave damage is meaningless. Imo they have do something about our rotation and soul fragments because unless we can do like DKs and build up and save our healing for whenever we need it like deathstrike it will be shitty to play. Like make spirit bomb a longer cool down spell that does significantly more, maybe even make it a shield from soul barrier and make soul cleave the main spender idk. I just hate the class right now

[totalrelax]

Grats op, you were right.
Feels sad looking at their tuning, when they try to balance internal talents instead of tank specs. Maybe give DH one more charge/less recharge on demon spikes and make meta be a bit stronger than iron bark?

[pay928]

Grats op, you were right.
Feels sad looking at their tuning, when they try to balance internal talents instead of tank specs. Maybe give DH one more charge/less recharge on demon spikes and make meta be a bit stronger than iron bark?

Or just toss them another CD that does %-based mitigation. Other tanks have multiple defensives (War, DK, and Pally then druid has 2 charges)

[sosleapy]

Idk I love playing my vdh. Granted i am casual and just finally killed jaina on heroic but i have done some 10+ keys and felt just fine. Yeah we could use some more but still having fun with my vdh as always.

[pay928]

Idk I love playing my vdh. Granted i am casual and just finally killed jaina on heroic but i have done some 10+ keys and felt just fine. Yeah we could use some more but still having fun with my vdh as always.

VDH is fine for content they outgear. Pushing M+ for your gear level is when they start to feel bad.

[sosleapy]

VDH is fine for content they outgear. Pushing M+ for your gear level is when they start to feel bad.

I'm only 403 and have done a 13 and it wasnt bad at all no reason to push over a 10 tbh

[cleverbits]

VDH is fine for content they outgear. Pushing M+ for your gear level is when they start to feel bad.

This. I actually prefer running with a vdh for keys in the 10-15 range, but we usually have our tank swap to another toon if it's higher.

[AgilityTank]

I'm only 403 and have done a 13 and it wasnt bad at all no reason to push over a 10 tbh

then why are you in this conversation? it's about relevent content

[sosleapy]

then why are you in this conversation? it's about relevent content

Because we are talking about pushing M+ keys...or did you even read anything besides my one post? Guessing you didnt. If you did I'm guessing you ain't to bright.

[Caparino]

Relevant content is not only a matter from Mythic+ Level its a matter from Itemlevel too.
When i have problem with maybe a 370er Venegeance in Low Keys and other classes have the same difficulty 3 or 5 level above then we have a a general problem and not only with pushing higher Keys. People use the easy way and when Venegenace is not the easy or "okayish" way they are simply not accepted and bad.

[AgilityTank]

Because we are talking about pushing M+ keys...or did you even read anything besides my one post? Guessing you didnt. If you did I'm guessing you ain't to bright.

too* 10chars

[Stacie]

Please don't make this personal / troll / flame guys.

[sosleapy]

Relevant content is not only a matter from Mythic+ Level its a matter from Itemlevel too.
When i have problem with maybe a 370er Venegeance in Low Keys and other classes have the same difficulty 3 or 5 level above then we have a a general problem and not only with pushing higher Keys. People use the easy way and when Venegenace is not the easy or "okayish" way they are simply not accepted and bad.

I did an 6 key at 370ish with no problems and well in time but I never pushed and I know higher we would have been fine then. But then again I did with guild so there is that. I mean I have been 400 and pugged an easy 3 and wiped a ton because of people not paying attention and backing into more groups.

[Nebthet]

I'm only 403 and have done a 13 and it wasnt bad at all no reason to push over a 10 tbh

Dude, the problem is with higher, much more challenging content. If it's much easier to tank a high key (let's say 18 to 25) on several other classes, yet vdh struggles heavily, then we have a tuning problem. Simple as that.

No one cares of a 13 or 10 key, everyone can do it, same principle as everyone can go and clear old expansions dungeons. Irrelevant.

[hulkgor]

Dude, the problem is with higher, much more challenging content. If it's much easier to tank a high key (let's say 18 to 25) on several other classes, yet vdh struggles heavily, then we have a tuning problem. Simple as that.

Where do you draw the line?

What would you consider the breakpoint for 'equal balance'? What key level? Every class tanking a 18? 20? 21? 22? a 30 when we get there?

There's always going to be a 'better' spec, and eventually, at some level of keys, that spec will be the only able to push through. It's impossible to get 'perfect' balance between 36 specs in the game.

[Caparino]

Where do you draw the line?

What would you consider the breakpoint for 'equal balance'? What key level? Every class tanking a 18? 20? 21? 22? a 30 when we get there?

There's always going to be a 'better' spec, and eventually, at some level of keys, that spec will be the only able to push through. It's impossible to get 'perfect' balance between 36 specs in the game.

36 Specs? Really relevant is only Tank Balance for a Venegeance Demonhunter. The main problem is we have no good Cooldowns and no Scaling.

Look at Warrior and their talent tree! Nearly every Row you find someting "wow awesome for M+" and Venegeance is more "what nearly useless Talent has the biggest non relevant impact".

Warrior has 15% Haste! in a group as first Talent row.
Shockwave as Cone Like Stun with 25s cooldown
DemoShout with -20% for every enemry
etc. ...

but we have Spirit Bomb.... Bullshit we use the Skill for damage because Soul Cleaver is absolut crap other classes have something like that as standart Toolkit. Warrior and Bremaster have more APM as Venegeance not because they are more complex, they simply have better Haste scaling or off GCD Skills.

[Tech614]

Dude, the problem is with higher, much more challenging content. If it's much easier to tank a high key (let's say 18 to 25) on several other classes, yet vdh struggles heavily, then we have a tuning problem. Simple as that.

No one cares of a 13 or 10 key, everyone can do it, same principle as everyone can go and clear old expansions dungeons. Irrelevant.

If you want to be completely honest, 18-25 keys mean jack shit. They boost a mythical score that blizzard doesn't officially recognize and you get exactly nothing in game for them. All this talk about "relevant content" and you're talking about content that is literally irrelevant. The highest M+ key that is officially recognized with an achievement in the game is a 15 and if you can't tank a 15 the problem isn't your class.

It's also hilarious the guy above is acting like only tank balance matters when DPS and Healer balance is actually worse in M+ then tank balance.

There are problems with the spec but the hyperbole I'm seeing in this thread about shit like not being able to tank low keys at 370? LOL What? The problem is definitely not the spec in cases like that.

[hulkgor]

Warrior has 15% Haste! in a group as first Talent row.
Shockwave as Cone Like Stun with 25s cooldown
DemoShout with -20% for every enemry
etc. ...

but we have Spirit Bomb....

Don't act like Vengeance doesn't have utility. It has some of the most amazing utility in the game for M+ with the Silence\Fear\Chain Sigils, and absolutely amazing self-heal and damage.

Sure, the defensive cds suck atm, in particular with metamorphs current state and the low uptime on spikes, but if they mess too much with it it will turn into to the opposite side of the spectrum as the best tank.

I'm excited for the upcoming buffs, honestly, i just hope they don't over do it.