Alliance aggressors confirmed

[Hubbl3]

actually, yes, that is what you do.
or have you never read a single history book ever? actually that would explain alot about you.

That you're at open war with? Have YOU ever read a history book?

[Verdugo]

actually, yes, that is what you do.
or have you never read a single history book ever? actually that would explain alot about you.

Oh right, warcraft is this amazing realistic setting where everything happens for a reason.


Its a fucking pulp fantasy, and a bad one at that.

[Hubbl3]

Truth be told, do we have an occasion when an alien invasion force attacks Earth with the explicit purpose of global extinction so we can see if enemies at open war would make a temporary truce to face it?

You're right, we don't have that to compare.

But the whole way the Broken Shore is told shows that the Alliance and Horde are not at war at that point.

[Hitei]

Funny how you say the OP is even more wrong than the person you're replying to only to go on pretending how the skirmish with the Explorer's League was the first hostile act in Silithus. When the SI:7 reinforcements that were the subject of the Silithus 7.3.5 questline (that involved hostilities) are sent to Silithus in the second chapter of the book while Explorer's League is sent there halfway through the book. Chronology, how does it work?

Holy shit, it's like you didn't even read the post. Yes. The Explorer's League being attacked in the middle of the night is the first hostile act in Silithus. The Alliance quests happen AFTER the Explorer's League. Period. That is the only way they make any sense at all. The alliance 7.3.5 quest line is about securing Azerite and giving it to the Explorer's League. The book's Explorer's League section is all about how the Explorer's League does not have any Azerite samples and cannot get any, and so is forced to observe it remotely. Really painfully basic logic should tell you which of these two things comes first.

X) Billy gets a skateboard for his birthday.
Y) Billy really wants a skateboard but doesn't have the allowance for it.

Which of these two things do you think comes first?

And just because Sylvanas had some vague plans even before Silithus doesn't give you any ground to handwave away Alliance aggression in Silithus or Stormheim.

No, Sylvanas herself fucking outright stating that the Alliance aren't the aggressors means you can ignore them. She approaches Saurfang with the understanding that they are currently at peace. Saurfang also understands that they are at peace. They have an entire discussion about how they are at peace and Sylvanas thinks that even though they are at peace now maybe in 10 or 50 years there won't be peace, so better to just break the peace now and win a decisive first strike.

Because they are not at war before Ashenvale. Ashenvale is the start of this war. Not Silithus (which was Horde aggression anyway) or Stormheim, which I guess you can vaguely point to as Alliance aggression if you ignore the entire Forsaken unilaterally attacking Gilneas, killing a bunch of people and the Prince and plaguing the city. "B-but Hitei, the Alliance and Horde worked together in MoP so that fight was over!" Yes, (even ignoring that the Horde attack first in WoD afterwards) they worked together in Legion so the minor skirmish in Stormheim is of zero consequence. Because skirmishes are inconsequential. They happen constantly and are not very important. Which is exactly why Anduin and Sylvanas talk about not being at war or starting a war in Arathi, and Saurfang and Sylvanas both openly talk about how they aren't currently at war in A Good War. And then Sylvanas marches an army into Ashenvale, slaughters a bunch of sentinels and launches a full-on siege of Darkshore before burning Teldrassil to the ground.

It's very, very straightforward.

[Makabreska]

Another #sylvanasdidnothingwrong thread. Fortunately, less and less people are in this denial.

[Hubbl3]

Another #sylvanasdidnothingwrong thread. Fortunately, less and less people are in this denial.

Sylvanas did plenty wrong. I'm sure if she would be less about rezzing people who will betray her/bringing a Old God into the world and more about winning the war this expansion would be over and fair-skinned-Elves would finally be in Stormwind :P

[Mehrunes]

lol, source? or are you just gonna try and pass a lie like that off?

Chronicle v3, page 181. So thank you for showcasing to the world that you don't know what you're talking about, i.e. how meaningless your posts here are.

the game itself says horde began the war in ashran on both sides over the artifact that was eventually cut along with everything else in that expac.

Care to quote the game on that war?

also doesn't that assumption of forgiveness apply all the way back to wrath with the alliance again working with the horde as of the argent tourny yet you yourself have claimed that the horde were innocent of the fact they started the war in cata? you're a lying hypocrite and that's all you've ever been or ever will be.

I haven't claimed they started the war in Cata, so what are you even talking about here? And what are you trying to prove by using the Horde and Alliance not killing each other while meeting on neutral ground where peace was enforced by a third party? Not to mention that this event predates Cata, so even putting aside that I didn't mention Cataclysm myself, your "argument" is kinda chronologically impaired.

go suck on vivic's silver and gold "spear".

Weird, you previously mentioned something about that nonsense in regards to me talking about game mechanics. Yet nothing I said in the post you replied to concerned game mechanics.

The letter was vague since most of it was illegible (I have quoted the relevant item and quests above). It does clearly show that Sylvanas is seeking power in Stormheim but not what or how.

And yet despite Genn "totally being aware of that" when he talks about Sylvanas' plans in Stormheim after the initial attack he says multiple times he has no idea, not that he has only vague snippets. Which happens at least twice. I wonder whatever could have been the case for that.

[Varitok]

I really dislike this story now. Please stop the faction war

[Mehrunes]

Holy shit, it's like you didn't even read the post. Yes. The Explorer's League being attacked in the middle of the night is the first hostile act in Silithus. The Alliance quests happen AFTER the Explorer's League. Period. That is the only way they make any sense at all. The alliance 7.3.5 quest line is about securing Azerite and giving it to the Explorer's League. The book's Explorer's League section is all about how the Explorer's League does not have any Azerite samples and cannot get any, and so is forced to observe it remotely. Really painfully basic logic should tell you which of these two things comes first.

Just saying "period" when you're ignoring the basic chronology of events in the book isn't an argument. Sorry to burst your bubble here. And you're engaging in some hardcore fabrication here to support your fantasies. The 7.3.5 questline doesn't mention Explorer's League one bit.

Hint #1: the quests are about SI:7, not Explorer's League.
Hint #2: SI:7 isn't Explorer's League.
Hint #3: SI:7 had samples of Azerite even before the questline so trying to conflate things the way you did and argue that because Explorer's League did not have samples and the SI:7 questline was about gathering samples means the questline was about Explorer's League isn't an effective line of argumentation in the slightest. Just the opposite, it falls flat on its face from the get go.

No, Sylvanas herself fucking outright stating that the Alliance aren't the aggressors means you can ignore them. She approaches Saurfang with the understanding that they are currently at peace. Saurfang also understands that they are at peace. They have an entire discussion about how they are at peace and Sylvanas thinks that even though they are at peace now maybe in 10 or 50 years there won't be peace, so better to just break the peace now and win a decisive first strike.

And more fabrication on your part. Sylvanas explicitly opens the dialogue with Saurfang with asking him how long he thought a peace with Alliance would last if she dedicated herself to the task of peace with the Alliance. Meaning that the peace was only a hypothetical future and not the reality of now. Which is further corroborated by Before the Storm that makes it clear beyond the shadow of the doubt that the factions aren't at peace.

Because they are not at war before Ashenvale. Ashenvale is the start of this war. Not Silithus (which was Horde aggression anyway) or Stormheim, which I guess you can vaguely point to as Alliance aggression if you ignore the entire Forsaken unilaterally attacking Gilneas, killing a bunch of people and the Prince and plaguing the city. "B-but Hitei, the Alliance and Horde worked together in MoP so that fight was over!" Yes, (even ignoring that the Horde attack first in WoD afterwards) they worked together in Legion so the minor skirmish in Stormheim is of zero consequence. Because skirmishes are inconsequential. They happen constantly and are not very important. Which is exactly why Anduin and Sylvanas talk about not being at war or starting a war in Arathi, and Saurfang and Sylvanas both openly talk about how they aren't currently at war in A Good War. And then Sylvanas marches an army into Ashenvale, slaughters a bunch of sentinels and launches a full-on siege of Darkshore before burning Teldrassil to the ground.

It's very, very straightforward.

Except the factions not being at war doesn't mean they weren't hostile to each other. And the topic of who's the aggressor is relevant to the issue of hostilities starting, not to the formal start of war. And sine Silithus was Alliance aggression because your argumentation about it makes less than zero sense, this and Stormheim, i.e. Alliance acts of aggression, are the start of hostilities.

And I'm not sure why you're providing an argument as to how the previous war was over while acting all facetious about it and pretending it's an argument in your favor just because of your facetiousness. The factions made peace after MoP, robbing the Alliance of using Gilneas as a justification.

As for the factions working together in Legion they did so only prior to Stormheim. The very fact that factions were not cooperating is the whole reason for why Class Order Halls had to lead the fight against the Legion for god's sake.

Your Arathi example is like the third case of you shooting yourself in the foot in one paragraph. The Gathering made it clear the factions were hostile to each other. They needed a ceasefire even for a peaceful meeting of civilians on neutral ground. As per Anduin's conditions, that ceasefire only lasted one day. Anduin futher mentioned how the Gathering isn't an offer of peace, which he wouldn't have to mention one way or another if the factions weren't hostile to each other.

So yes, it's very, very straightforward. Which is why it's really confusing why you manage to stumble in so many ways about it.

Another #sylvanasdidnothingwrong thread. Fortunately, less and less people are in this denial.

Is this straw-man supposed to convince anyone? Alliance starting shit in Silithus doesn't mean Sylvanas did nothing wrong and no one argued as such.

[Mehrunes]

Yes, he only has vague snippets. All the letter had was vague snippets. Were exactly is the contradiction? Vague snippets are not knowledge, he doesn't know what she is after.

Which part of the difference between Genn having vague snippets and Genn having nothing (which is what Genn actually says) specifically has eldued you?

[Zandalariprelate]

Oh right, warcraft is this amazing realistic setting where everything happens for a reason.


Its a fucking pulp fantasy, and a bad one at that.

I always wondered how people can praise the current state of the game in reddit. The other day I saw a top comment in the r/wowlore about the idea of Anduin lightforging Bolvar and the scourge, freaking hilarious coming from a place dedicated to the "lore"

[Hubbl3]

I always wondered how people can praise the current state of the game in reddit. The other day I saw a top comment in the r/wowlore about the idea of Anduin lightforging Bolvar and the scourge, freaking hilarious coming from a place dedicated to the "lore"

Yes, but that happens when there are no consistent rules in WoW in place.

[Jastall]

Except what you're deliberately ignoring here is that Stormheim was maybe mentioned once, but it was mentioned to convince Saurfang and justify the war to him. And would you look at that, Sylvanas is planning to conquer Stormwind only after Stormheim has happened, while previously she was so interested in a war with the Alliance and conquering Stormheim she sat out almost the entirety of the previous faction war after she consolidated her power in 4.0. It's almost as if Sylvanas' entire modus operandi was a desire to live forever and removing all threats to that goal. With Alliance proving itself to be a threat with Stormheim. And if Sylvanas has a casus belli with Silithus, her war is a reaction by default, because that's the very point of such casus belli. Her just making plans prior to that is really immaterial.




Except Sylvanas dwarfed Garrosh's achievements at the very start of the war, with War of Thorns succeeding where Garrosh has failed for three years. Hell, most of actual "good showing" during the previous faction war was Sylvanas conquering multiple Alliance zones and beating Seventh Legion while Garrosh fucked around with Magnataurs, Molten Giants and whatnot with little to show for it. And if not for Jaina ex machina the entire Alliance army would be done for at Undercity. Given how the Alliance army breached into the city near the end of the fight and Sylvanas Blighted it, a ton of them still likely have perished in the end, with Jaina being too busy elsewhere to freeze the Blight again. And disproportionate response is pretty much how all major powers wage war. It's part of their military PR to dishearten other potential enemies.

We haven't been in Sylvanas's head between Edge of Night and Before the Storm as I recall, which is where we know she wants to conquer Stormwind, also more importantly she wasn't Warchief beforehand with the entire faction at her beck and call + her explicit need to placate them with the spoils of war. So to say that Stormheim was the one catalyst is conjecture given that last I checked she doesn't mention the event once in her inner thoughts, only when pitching her plan to Saurfang, and crucially said pitch doesn't follow her monologues 100%. She sat out the war post-4.0 because in Cata the war was completely forgotten about after said patch and because most everyone in the Horde sat out the actual faction war in Mists except the characters featured in the pre-patch and 5.1, also if memory serves Garrosh says he doesn't trust or want the Forsaken to be part of the current war effort.

As for the second paragraph, either the Warchief gets the credit or not. Saurfang led the War of the Thorns, the Horde's only real success, not Sylvanas. Thus either Garrosh gets the credit for Sylvanas's conquests in Cataclysm and Sylvanas gets the credit for the defeat of the NEs, or Sylvanas gets the credit for Gilneas, Andorhal and Hillsbrad and Saurfang gets the credit for Ashenvale and Darkshore. As for the Alliance having superpowered beings, welcome to high fantasy, these are things that happen, and Sylvanas is second only to Jaina herself on the bullshit power level argument anyway.

And given that the Horde's disproportionate response did jack shit to stop them from getting spanked nor did it stop other enemies from having a beef with us so far, I'd say it is a failed policy on both a moral and practical standpoint.

[Verdugo]

The part when most people who have only heard vague elements would assume they don't actually know anything because that is the responsible approach? Genn knowing that Sylvanas is after something in Stormheim doesn't mean he knows what she is after. Why would he say otherwise?
I seriously do not understand the contrarianism. Why did Blizzard add that quest for the Alliance if it was not to mean anything as part of the story? And why is it so bad for Alliance to have had a reason to follow Sylvanas to see what she was after? In no way does it excuse attacking her up until the point in Skold-Ashil (at which attacking her is the only strategic choice). No one says otherwise, even Anduin was against it.

I dont know, why was it added to the Horde also?

[yoma]

Good. The Alliance needs to wipe the Horde off the map and be done with it. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 30 times, bye Felicia.

[Lupinemancer]

In 7.1.5 After Sargeras stabbed Azeroth, Gallywix was the first to know. His cane turned into a piece of Azerite. He knows this because of his previous knowledge from Kezan. "And no one knows about this?" Sylvanas asks. To which Gallywix replies "Don't worry warchief, I've got my boys on it."

"BuT ThE ExPloReRs LeAgUe WaS ThErE FiRsT AnD ThE EvUl HoRdE AtTaCkEd FiRsT!!" Wrong again.

The only mention of Silithus in military context in Elegy were Cordressa's report afterwards and Tyrande being sent there, which happens at the start of 8.0. The events of the 7.3.5 cinematic, which ended with Anduin ordering Shaw to get more SI:7 on Silithus issue happened at the very start of the book. Explorer's League is sent only around ~1/3rd into the book, after Anduin talked with Magni and then consulted what he learned from him with other Alliance leaders. There's nothing to suggest these are the same forces.

So in retrospect, we can already see that the Bilgewater Miners were there first. proceeded with the alliance sending a fleet transporting an army of night elves and Si7 Assassins harassing the workers.

"The crown has ordered SI:7 to infiltrate the goblin mining operation and collect any information we can find on this mysterious new substance. My agents have infiltrated the camp, but the clock is ticking and we need to get our hands on some extracted ore samples fast. In other words, I need someone who can take the direct approach."

And as seen in this quest text in-game, Anduin himself ordered the massacre upon the miners to retrieve the substance. Anduin only wants peace because as we see in the long run, the only ones who benefit from this is the alliance. Saurfang knows in "a Good war" that the Alliance could steamroll the Horde if it wishes, and that gap would only grow bigger as time went on.

So the "You're building war machines, of course we respond." First of all, you didn't even know what the Azerite was or what it was for before you started murdering the miners and analyzing it. Also, so what? The Horde has the right to defend itself. Did you people just forget how Greymane and Rogers annhilated the forsaken fleet at the start of legion with no consequences for their actions? If Anduin can't stop his subjects from attacking the horde, they need to do something to defend theirselves. Prehaps we should as you to dismantle the vindicator or ask Malfurion to go away?

If you had actually played through that quest, you'd know that the Alliance merely went to investigate this new mysterious substance, and because they did not trust the Horde NOT to attack thm with it.
But as soon as they arrived, teh Horde attacked them unprovoked, so the Alliance had no choice but to fight back.

[LuminaL]

This is wrong but OP is even more wrong. The explorer's league is not there first, but much later.

At some point after the sword hits, Anduin sends SI:7 to keep an eye on the sword, and Gallywix sends goblins to investigate the possibility of Azerite after his cane is triggered by its awakening. It is unclear (and also doesn't really matter) who gets there first, but the Goblins note Azerite, and SI:7 keeps watch from afar (seen in the epilogue cinematics). Afterwards, the Alliance sends more SI:7 to keep an eye on the goblins, and the explorer's league to investiage Azerite.

There is no fighting up until this point.

The explorer's league arrives in Silithus, and the Goblins have completely taken over every azerite vein. So the explorer's league and their sentinel guard stay away from the goblins for several days, just making observations of the azerite through long-range equipment. The Alliance deliberately does not engage. After several nights of making observations, the explorer's league camp is attacked in the middle of the night by Goblins, who kill at least two sentinels, and kidnap Sapphy. That is the canon, first combat of the entire situation.

At some point afterwards, Anduin and Shaw send the Alliance player to Silithus, while Nathanos and Sylvanas send the Horde player (we know that this happens AFTER Sapphy's kidnapping, because the Alliance quests involve giving the explorer's league in silithus samples to study, and if they had samples they wouldn't have had to rely on purely remote observations prior to being attacked). The Alliance players are sent in to secure samples by force and disable the Goblin mining operations, while at the same time the Horde players are sent in to clear out SI:7 rogues--we know that these happen at the same time, because the Horde specifically talks about how the Alliance are just skulking around, there is literally zero mention of any attacks when the Horde player arrives.


All of this is completely unimportant, though, since the war has nothing at all to do with Silithus. Sylvanas is already planning the war and striking at Stormwind before she even knows about Azerite or that the Goblins are mining it in Silithus. The war is, and never was, about or started by Silithus. It was about Sylvanas seeing a vulnerability in the Alliance after the fight against the Legion to give the Horde an opportunity to quickly grab Kalimdor and then, with the Alliance divided by the attack with Darnassus held hostage they'd be unable to unite in an action and weak to continued aggression.

That is how the war started, period. It has nothing to do with Silithus, it has nothing to do with Stormheim. It was purely Sylvanas seeing an opportunity for expansion and conquest.

please, please make a thread with this, more people need to see this.

[Hitei]

Just saying "period" when you're ignoring the basic chronology of events in the book isn't an argument. Sorry to burst your bubble here. And you're engaging in some hardcore fabrication here to support your fantasies. The 7.3.5 questline doesn't mention Explorer's League one bit.

Hint #1: the quests are about SI:7, not Explorer's League.
Hint #2: SI:7 isn't Explorer's League.
Hint #3: SI:7 had samples of Azerite even before the questline so trying to conflate things the way you did and argue that because Explorer's League did not have samples and the SI:7 questline was about gathering samples means the questline was about Explorer's League isn't an effective line of argumentation in the slightest. Just the opposite, it falls flat on its face from the get go.

Ah yes, those famous """"SI:7"""" Minerologists that have nothing to do with SI:7, aren't listed as SI:7 and aren't dressed like SI:7.

And more fabrication on your part. Sylvanas explicitly opens the dialogue with Saurfang with asking him how long he thought a peace with Alliance would last if she dedicated herself to the task of peace with the Alliance. Meaning that the peace was only a hypothetical future and not the reality of now. Which is further corroborated by Before the Storm that makes it clear beyond the shadow of the doubt that the factions aren't at peace.

Please just stop while you are behind.

Anger flooded Saurfang’s mind. He knew he wasn’t hiding it well, but he didn’t care. “Are you so eager for another war? After all we’ve seen?”

Saurfang felt the trap closing in on him, and he did not like it. “We fought side‐by‐side against the Burning Legion. That creates bonds that are not easily broken.”

“Time breaks every bond.” Sylvanas leaned across the table. Her words flew like arrows. “What do you believe? Will peace last five years or fifty?”

Silence hung between them for a while. When Saurfang spoke, his voice had calmed. “Then we should talk of preparing for the next war, not starting it today.”

“We are,” she said.

“The boy in Stormwind will not start a war tomorrow,” Saurfang said.

On that, you and I agree. “Do you have your mind made up, Warchief? Are you driving us to war? Despite the cost?”

“I see an opportunity. I need a plan to achieve it,” Sylvanas said.

“And if I cannot create a plan?”

“Then we do nothing, of course.”

Except the factions not being at war doesn't mean they weren't hostile to each other. And the topic of who's the aggressor is relevant to the issue of hostilities starting, not to the formal start of war. And sine Silithus was Alliance aggression because your argumentation about it makes less than zero sense, this and Stormheim, i.e. Alliance acts of aggression, are the start of hostilities.

And I'm not sure why you're providing an argument as to how the previous war was over while acting all facetious about it and pretending it's an argument in your favor just because of your facetiousness. The factions made peace after MoP, robbing the Alliance of using Gilneas as a justification.

"Hurr, Gilneas doesn't count because the Alliance and Horde worked together at the end up MoP! But please also pretend that Stormheim counts even though the Alliance and Horde worked together at the end of Legion, after that."

As for the factions working together in Legion they did so only prior to Stormheim. The very fact that factions were not cooperating is the whole reason for why Class Order Halls had to lead the fight against the Legion for god's sake.

Oh I see, so we're just going the delusional pretend that Suramar, every single Class Hall campaign and Argus did not happen route. Cool.

Your Arathi example is like the third case of you shooting yourself in the foot in one paragraph. The Gathering made it clear the factions were hostile to each other. They needed a ceasefire even for a peaceful meeting of civilians on neutral ground. As per Anduin's conditions, that ceasefire only lasted one day. Anduin futher mentioned how the Gathering isn't an offer of peace, which he wouldn't have to mention one way or another if the factions weren't hostile to each other.

You are genuinely just embarrassing yourself, and I urge you to stop before you make it even worse.

"Anduin shot him a sharp look. “If this goes well,” he repeated, adding, “and I believe it will, this could plant a seed. If these few people can find common ground, why not a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand, or more?” Aware that negative emotions were running high and threatening to overshadow other factors, he tried appealing to their tactical minds. “Why would Sylvanas openly start a war? She’s got much to lose and little to gain. The Horde is preoccupied with the same concerns that face the Alliance: how to recover from the devastating war with the Legion. How to heal Azeroth and how to keep Azerite from falling into the hands of the opposition. Do you think she wants to fight another open war with all that going on?”

Silently, Anduin gathered Calia’s still-warm body in his arms and rose. He looked up at the dark rangers, at their dark mistress, and gazed evenly into those glowing red orbs.
“You don’t want a war,” he said calmly.
“Don’t I?” She drew back on the string farther. Anduin could hear the bone bow creak. “If I kill you today, too, I’ll have a matched set of dead royals: a queen and a king.”
He shook his head. “If you wanted war, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. But I have a right to declare it. You promised not to kill any of my people.” He lifted Calia’s body, letting her still frame say all that needed to be said.
“Ah, but she is not one of yours, is she?” Sylvanas’s voice had a cold but angry edge to it, and the hair along Anduin’s arms lifted. “She is—was—a citizen of Lordaeron. Its queen. You brought a usurper onto the field, Anduin Wrynn. I would be well within my rights to consider that a hostile action. Who violated the treaty first?”
“She came as a healer!”
“She leaves as a corpse. Did you think I would not discover what you had done?”
“I swear to you by the Light, I acted in good faith. I gave no orders to your people to defect. You can believe that or not. But if you strike me down, my people and all of Stormwind’s allies will retaliate. And they will do so holding nothing back.”

But sure, if you want to continue just being objectively fucking wrong and pretending there wasn't a treaty in place as of the end of Before the Storm (read: AFTER all the shit in Silithus and before A Good War) even when the text clearly says there's a treaty, I guess go ahead and make it even more clear you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[Cobman]

Source: Blizzard scraping the zone order doing the beta and giving us the choice to start with any zone we want to instead.

Dude every second comment here is yours, im pretty sure that YOU think that you know better but when you start to argue with pretty much everyone in this threat you look like a joke. You cant over-argue majority and your opinion is not the most important here. I dont get what your agenda is but it seems that you bash alliance as hard as you can. Story is not that complex. Stop trying that hard to show that you know the best, cuz thats not true cheerio

[Canpinter]

Ok lets pretend that genn getting the journal is cannon and stormhiem happened after. how does that justify him trying to assassinate the leader of the only other superpower on the planet during a invasion of literal demons from spacehell.