Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Jastall]

The problem lies in the prime timeline, so returning it is irrelevant to the question. With the stone being destroyed by Thanos, how does the Sorcerer Supreme protect our reality from threats like Dormammu, etc? The Ancient One seemed to make a pretty big point to note she could not give up the stone because it was necessary for the protecting and fighting evil that they do.

See that's the one thing that does bug me. I don't care much about the exact intricacies of time travel because that's pretty much always bullshit and the movie obviously is designed so that you just roll with it, much like Strange's magic or Stark's ridiculous super hologram-nanotech nonsense invented by one guy in his basement.

But the movie pays specific attention to the fact that the alternate timelines must have their stones to continue functioning. All well and good... except the prime timeline lost theirs. They're gone, poof, rekt, destroyed, 360 noscoped. That should have had an impact if you ask me.

As someone else said, maybe dealing with reality without the Stones is going to be a plot point moving forward, in which case I retract my criticism but still think at least one character should have went "erm, guys, does that mean nobody has a Soul now or something?".

[RobertoCarlos]

This is why I hate time travel being used as a plot device. I don't mind it in comedies, because time travels ends up being silly. I can't think of a movie where Time Travel is used and doesn't break it's own rules, and leave the audience with way more questions than answers.

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban does time travel quite well.

Got your standard rules, no one can see you, can only use it for studying (lol). Basically dont be a dick with the hour glass that allows time travel.

You base the time travel event around a significant event that will play out the same no matter what unless you change minor details, and those minor details should have been foreshadowed the whole time not total ass pulls.

Or you can go like flashpoint and just create a new universe/timeline and have fun with it then go back to normal at the end

[Fayolynn]

The rules of timetravel say that your actions cannot change anything that has already occurred. But, since they return the stone to a point prior of Steven Strange recieving it, that is still a possibility for the 2012 timeline.

For example, in the 2012 timeline, they cannot prohibit Loki from escaping with the Tesseract, even them going back to 1970es and stealing the Tesseract there doesn't change the fact that that happened. It is forever in the past, even if you travel to a point technically prior to it.

I guess then it comes down to are the timelines running concurrently or not. IE they travel to 2024 in their timeline. If the other timelines are running concurrently then they are also in 2024 so that means in the time stone free timeline Dormammu has destroyed/taken over earth. So they wouldn't be able to change that event.

[Skulltaker]

But they did do something, they took the time stone. The moment the stone is moved from 2012 to 2024 it created a timeline where the stone was not present. They then did something again by returning the stone. Both actions changed the course of events for the universe so both actions should have created distinct timelines.

Side note, I know time travel isn't real and no one knows how it would really work and for narrative sake they can have anything they want happen. This was more a thought experiment about how things could work based on what was stated in the movie.

Again, as long as whatever change your interaction would create in the timeline hasn't occured yet you can prevent it from happening. Since they take the time stone from a moment prior of Steven Strange recieving it, he can still obtain it in the very same timeline, and defeat Dormamu. The new timeline is created in the moment they arrive there, not when they take the stones. Cap going back to return the stones doesn't create a new timeline because they've been moving only forward, from that timelines perspective. He couldn't return the stone to a moment befor they took it, though.

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I guess then it comes down to are the timelines running concurrently or not. IE they travel to 2024 in their timeline. If the other timelines are running concurrently then they are also in 2024 so that means in the time stone free timeline Dormammu has destroyed/taken over earth. So they wouldn't be able to change that event.

Well, they don't clarify that, but I'd say no, they don't. As long as an event in any given timeline hasn't occurred yet, you can prevent it. Since the timestone is only gone for a couple of minutes, from 2012s perspective, they should be fine. So, basically, they could fuck around in the past as much as they want, as long as they make sure to clean up.

It's a bit wonky, but I think what is inhibiting us the most is our threedimensional thinking. It gets really confusing if you picture Cap going back to points prior of the stones removal. In fact, they could make scenes with Cap arriving befor Banner leaves, and observing the conversation with the Ancient One from hiding, have her turn towards him and say 'did it work?' and him handing back the stone.

[Highelf]

Meh, the issue is that people can't handle contrivance or fan service when it challenges their outdated world views.

There's so much in this movie that's a contrivance or fan service, but the one that gets internet ragers in a tizzy is seeing all the women in a single shot.

You think they're in a tizzy because they're all females when that isn't the case. but YOU think that must be the only reason. Sounds like you're out of place.

On another note, I liked Infinity War much better. Set up a lot of cool things that End Game did not deliver on. Instead we got a retcon time machine in the back of a van.

[Fayolynn]

timeline hasn't occured yet you can prevent it from happening. Since they take the time stone from a moment prior of Steven Strange recieving it, he can still obtain it in the very same timeline, and defeat Dormamu. The new timeline is created in the moment they arrive there, not when they take the stones. Cap going back to return the stones doesn't create a new timeline because they've been moving only forward, from that timelines perspective. He couldn't return the stone to a moment befor they took it, though.

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Well, they don't clarify that, but I'd say no, they don't. As long as an event in any given timeline hasn't occurred yet, you can prevent it. Since the timestone is only gone for a couple of minutes, from 2012s perspective, they should be fine. So, basically, they could fuck around in the past as much as they want, as long as they make sure to clean up.

It's a bit wonky, but I think what is inhibiting us the most is our threedimensional thinking. It gets really confusing if you picture Cap going back to points prior of the stones removal. In fact, they could make scenes with Cap arriving befor Banner leaves, and observing the conversation with the Ancient One from hiding, have her turn towards him and say 'did it work?' and him handing back the stone.

The problem is how can you say the event hasn't happened yet when the current year is 2024?

[eschatological]

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban does time travel quite well.

Got your standard rules, no one can see you, can only use it for studying (lol). Basically dont be a dick with the hour glass that allows time travel.

You base the time travel event around a significant event that will play out the same no matter what unless you change minor details, and those minor details should have been foreshadowed the whole time not total ass pulls.

Or you can go like flashpoint and just create a new universe/timeline and have fun with it then go back to normal at the end

There's a reason, though, they had to destroy all the Time Turners in Order of the Phoenix (5th book) during their raid on the Department of Mysteries. Because Harry "I don't give a shit about rules" Potter would never have used a time turner benevolently like Hermione did.

[Sylv_]

IMO.

They should have added 30-45 more minutes at the end of Infinity War, and concluded the series.

Endgame was Fuuuuuccckkiinngg garbage.

[Skulltaker]

The problem is how can you say the event hasn't happened yet when the current year is 2024?

Not for the people in the 2012 timeline. Their future is not dependant on the point in time the Avengers are currently on. While the Avengers slug it out with 2014 Thanos in 2024, back in alternate 2012, Cap has already returned the Stone(s). At the same time, in 2012, Cap is living a peaceful life with Peggy Carter in the 1950es timeline, while hitting not himself in the Stark tower. What is the past for them, in their 2024, in their timelines, is going to be the future for Main Timeline Steve Rogers.

[Ragedaug]

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban does time travel quite well.

Got your standard rules, no one can see you, can only use it for studying (lol). Basically dont be a dick with the hour glass that allows time travel.

You base the time travel event around a significant event that will play out the same no matter what unless you change minor details, and those minor details should have been foreshadowed the whole time not total ass pulls.

Or you can go like flashpoint and just create a new universe/timeline and have fun with it then go back to normal at the end

Harry Potter's time travel tends to be the one I prefer. You can't change anything because if you went into the past, then you were already there, so the things you will do, you've already done. The problems with this theory tend to be paradoxical in nature, for example, the characters would not have gone into the past if they had not gone into the past and did what they did that caused what it caused.

Otherwise, you have to go with branched time lines. The problems with that tends to be they ignore the fact that changing the past only fixes whatever you were trying to fix in the new branch. Everyone you left behind in the old branch is still screwed. Or they fall into the problem of going back and forth from past to present completely ignoring the different branches created.

Bringing it back to End Game, I appreciate the fact that they didn't try to change the past, so that's probably one of the better ways you can handle it - instead using time travel as a tool to retrieve something that no longer exists, to fix the present.. So I like the concept, but then by the end of the movie, they end up breaking their own rules a time or two.

[Mahourai]

Unless the Avengers thought really hard about saving the tangent worlds they have actually doomed reality to an endless series of Quantum Realm schisms, as Thanos is still active in the 2013, 2012, 1970 and 1945 tangent worlds. Therefore he will enact the Infinity War storyline again and either succeed in killing everyone (according to Strange this is extremely likely), or the events of Endgame will play out as they did in the film, or the events of Endgame will play out but Thanos will succeed and use the Gauntlet to destroy and recreate the universe.

So of the three outcomes, one is absolute disaster, one is the bad outcome of IW, and one is the Endgame events, which themselves necessitate another 2-4 schism worlds where Thanos is alive (the 1970 branch is not strictly necessary if they succeed in 2012, or if they remember that the Space gem is also on Asgard at the same time as Jane Foster's infection by the Aether so they don't actually need to steal it in 2012, and the 1945 branch is also not necessary). Practically speaking there are only bad outcomes, as the good outcome simply creates the opportunity for more bad outcomes in further schism worlds

The Avengers have therefore, practically speaking, caused an infinite amount of people in parallel worlds to die upon enacting their plan. Oops.

This can be avoided if Steve was given instructions to pass along to Nick Fury (or to leave for the future, in the 1945 and 1970 schism worlds) to contact Captain Marvel and inform her Thanos must be immediately assassinated at whatever time she gets the message in order to prevent the deaths of trillions. He also has to leave orders for her to kill Ego the Living Planet and possibly Ronan the Accuser in the 2014 timeline where Thanos is dead, to prevent a variety of galactic genocides. This is assuming that it's the entrance and exiting the Quantum Realm that causes the schism, and that the characters are mistaken and not really "time traveling" in any meaningful sense. If Steve's intervention in the 4 schism worlds where Thanos is alive will cause further schisms, then avoiding an infinite cascade is impossible. It's also very unlikely (since the characters never mention it and plainly do not understand the Quantum Realm or what they're doing in any way) that they will send Steve with instructions, or that he will think to deliver them. Again, oops.

[Skulltaker]

Unless the Avengers thought really hard about saving the tangent worlds they have actually doomed reality to an endless series of Quantum Realm schisms, as Thanos is still active in the 2013, 2012, 1970 and 1945 tangent worlds. Therefore he will enact the Infinity War storyline again and either succeed in killing everyone (according to Strange this is extremely likely), or the events of Endgame will play out as they did in the film, or the events of Endgame will play out but Thanos will succeed and use the Gauntlet to destroy and recreate the universe.

So of the three outcomes, one is absolute disaster, one is the bad outcome of IW, and one is the Endgame events, which themselves necessitate another 2-4 schism worlds where Thanos is alive (the 1970 branch is not strictly necessary if they succeed in 2012, or if they remember that the Space gem is also on Asgard at the same time as Jane Foster's infection by the Aether so they don't actually need to steal it in 2012, and the 1945 branch is also not necessary). Practically speaking there are only bad outcomes, as the good outcome simply creates the opportunity for more bad outcomes in further schism worlds

The Avengers have therefore, practically speaking, caused an infinite amount of people in parallel worlds to die upon enacting their plan. Oops.

This can be avoided if Steve was given instructions to pass along to Nick Fury (or to leave for the future, in the 1945 and 1970 schism worlds) to contact Captain Marvel and inform her Thanos must be immediately assassinated at whatever time she gets the message in order to prevent the deaths of trillions. He also has to leave orders for her to kill Ego the Living Planet and possibly Ronan the Accuser in the 2014 timeline where Thanos is dead, to prevent a variety of galactic genocides. This is assuming that it's the entrance and exiting the Quantum Realm that causes the schism, and that the characters are mistaken and not really "time traveling" in any meaningful sense. If Steve's intervention in the 4 schism worlds where Thanos is alive will cause further schisms, then avoiding an infinite cascade is impossible. It's also very unlikely (since the characters never mention it and plainly do not understand the Quantum Realm or what they're doing in any way) that they will send Steve with instructions, or that he will think to deliver them. Again, oops.

Unless the Avengers in these timelines all do the same thing the ones in the main timeline do, resulting in infinite defeated Thanos.

Or, to be even more precise, at the point in time we're currently in, most of these Thanoses are already defeated.

[Mahourai]

Unless the Avengers in these timelines all do the same thing the ones in the main timeline do, resulting in infinite defeated Thanos.

I addressed this in my post.

Remember, according to Strange, Endgame is the ONLY way they win, so defeating Thanos and reversing the universal genocide absolutely will entail making more schism worlds with the Quantum Realm. If they simply repeat the events of Endgame, they have created more schism worlds to try for more failures, because the events of Endgame-B necessitate the creation of 2013-C, 2012-C, and so on.

You can posit that they will succeed every single time but this is extremely unlikely, given that Strange suggested they are defeated in virtually every possible permutation of events.

[tyrlaan]

Nope, you are just doing the usual bullshit dance around. I asked you to pick a film and it was too difficult for you. Combine that with your superficial grasp of the films and it’s apparent you’re not responding in good faith. Have a good one kiddo, you’re not as quick as you think you are.

And probably a ban evading alt account.

The point is for Cap to show up literally seconds after Hulk teleports away from The Ancient One, making that alternate timeline as close to the original as possible.

Hell, I don't see why he can't return it even before Hulk takes it, and then The Ancient One goes to her study, and it's sitting there with a thank you note. Obviously Cap wouldn't be so flippant to leave it around, but it would be a cool effect for her to give it to Hulk, he teleports, she turns around, and Cap is standing there with the stone.

At least with the time stone, yeah. It would both make sense and be kind of awesome.

I actually think that the Avengers' handling of the stones was scripted to be more cavalier than it should have been. Arguably any attempt to turn the stones other than the time and soul stones doesn't feel like it's going to succeed in snuffing out an alternate timeline to me. And each alternate timeline is potential story fuel. Now, I might be proven quite wrong, but I suppose time will tell.

Bringing it back to End Game, I appreciate the fact that they didn't try to change the past, so that's probably one of the better ways you can handle it - instead using time travel as a tool to retrieve something that no longer exists, to fix the present.. So I like the concept, but then by the end of the movie, they end up breaking their own rules a time or two.

I'll say with cautious optimism that maybe they didn't break their own rules. It very much depends what we see in future films. All the mistakes could be acknowledged as "in world" errors or, if never addressed, are absolutely writer mistakes.

The Avengers have therefore, practically speaking, caused an infinite amount of people in parallel worlds to die upon enacting their plan. Oops.

I don't necessarily agree with "infinite", but yes. The Avengers clearly care about one timeline, theirs, and kinda care about the others. Kinda. Maybe.

Perfect justification for a cosmic being to come down hard on them. But since this isn't the comic books, I don't know if we'll ever see that.

[Ragedaug]

I'll say with cautious optimism that maybe they didn't break their own rules. It very much depends what we see in future films. All the mistakes could be acknowledged as "in world" errors or, if never addressed, are absolutely writer mistakes.

The one that stood out to me was when Cap showed back up in the Prime Timeline after going back to hang with Ms Carter.. The explanations I've heard people try to talk about, like, "maybe he went here then there, then forward and backwards, and hopping realities to get back, etc, etc," all sound ridiculous. So that was one specific breaking of their own rules. The next obvious one will be when we see Loki again. Do I know for sure that we'll see him again in the Prime Universe? No. Would I bet that we will? If I was a gambling man, I'd take that bet in a heart beat. And that will be a big break to their own rules and/or some extremely convoluted story to try to cover for the mistake.

[eschatological]

And probably a ban evading alt account.



At least with the time stone, yeah. It would both make sense and be kind of awesome.

I actually think that the Avengers' handling of the stones was scripted to be more cavalier than it should have been. Arguably any attempt to turn the stones other than the time and soul stones doesn't feel like it's going to succeed in snuffing out an alternate timeline to me. And each alternate timeline is potential story fuel. Now, I might be proven quite wrong, but I suppose time will tell.

To be honest, I didn't even know til this movie that the square blue one (space stone?) and the one in Loki's staff (mind stone?) were different. They both glow blue, but one is actually a light pink color when it's on the gauntlet?

[tyrlaan]

The one that stood out to me was when Cap showed back up in the Prime Timeline after going back to hang with Ms Carter.. The explanations I've heard people try to talk about, like, "maybe he went here then there, then forward and backwards, and hopping realities to get back, etc, etc," all sound ridiculous. So that was one specific breaking of their own rules. The next obvious one will be when we see Loki again. Do I know for sure that we'll see him again in the Prime Universe? No. Would I bet that we will? If I was a gambling man, I'd take that bet in a heart beat. And that will be a big break to their own rules and/or some extremely convoluted story to try to cover for the mistake.

The Russo bros have confirmed he lived with Peggy in an alternate timeline and then came back to the main timeline. The rule it broke for me is I would have expected him to come back on the pad if that were true. However, someone's suggested that the movie doesn't affirm you MUST return on the pad; I can't remember the details from the movie though tbh. Another suggestion I've seen is that someone in the alternate timeline developed the tech to send him back to his original timeline/the main timeline. The latter seems quite plausible, but the movie should have handled Cap's return better so we wouldn't be stuck inventing rationalizations.

[Super Kami Dende]

Goddamn people are so critical of Time-Travel Plots as if we have actual Real-life Time-Travel to compare it to factually. You arguing about how their Time Travel doesn't work but X movies Time Travel does is just inane.

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To be honest, I didn't even know til this movie that the square blue one (space stone?) and the one in Loki's staff (mind stone?) were different. They both glow blue, but one is actually a light pink color when it's on the gauntlet?

How could you not notice they were different, when Loki had his Staff whilst hunting down the Tessaract in Avengers?

[Mahourai]

I don't necessarily agree with "infinite", but yes. The Avengers clearly care about one timeline, theirs, and kinda care about the others. Kinda. Maybe.

Yeah it's not necessarily "infinite" but it almost certainly is. Since the schism universes have very minimal differences from the prime one (assuming no intervention by Steve) events will probably play out very similarly, except for the 2014 splinter where Thanos is dead and Gamora and Nebula are missing which ends up with Ego awakening and destroying thousands of worlds because the Guardians of the Galaxy do not stop him. Unfortunately every schism that ends with a successful Endgame also ends with a schism 2014 and further schism Endgames, creating an infinite cascade.

Aside from Steve intervening, the best-case scenario is that everyone in the splinter worlds with Thanos in them somehow fails to defeat Thanos and never creates more schism worlds, so that an infinite cascade is avoided. Unfortunately this means there are 4 schism worlds where Thanos succeeds, bringing the death toll to 2 entire universes (along with Ego's genocide in 2014-B).

[Kyphael]

Goddamn people are so critical of Time-Travel Plots as if we have actual Real-life Time-Travel to compare it to factually. You arguing about how their Time Travel doesn't work but X movies Time Travel does is just inane.

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How could you not notice they were different, when Loki had his Staff whilst hunting down the Tessaract in Avengers?

The biggest criticism for me is using it in their big blowout movie with no previous foreshadowing. They spent one third of the movie moping around, another third explaining how time travel works in the MCU (only to break their own rules to make things happen.) That made what should have been the big finale a disjointed, controversial story-telling mess. It opened a whole can of worms for the future introducing time travel, on the end of their first 3 phases if nothing else. Gamora was sacrificed for the Soul Stone, and yet a past Gamora is now alive and existent. They can't do the same for Natasha why? The mental gymnastics people are going through to justify things like that is just totally unnecessary for what could have been a movie even more epic than Infinity War.

It's the principle of over-complicating things. Movies called Somewhere In Time and Back to the Future you expect time travel to be an important plot device. Avengers: ENDGAME, 22 movies deep? I expected a Return of the King or Return of the Jedi level of epic. Instead I got Back to the Future hunting for doohickeys for more than half the movie and a 20 minute battle against Past Thanos. Sorry, that fell flat for me.