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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    an example for you. india and pakistan. do you think either one of them is fake? no. are they separate countries at this point? yes. are they essentially THE SAME ETHNIC GROUP OF PEOPLE? yes. the main divide in case of india and pakistan is primarily religion based (and there is that whole British empire involvement), but ethnically, they are still. the same. people.

    its a very similar case with Russia and Ukraine, including differences in religious beliefs and involvement of other countries colonizing. and its honestly, pretty darn sad to watch.
    Same ethnic group does not mean the same people. The language is not the same, writing system is not the same. By the same logic I can call Bulgarians or Serbians Russians too. Sure, Slavs are related, some much more than others, but they are not all Russians. And it is not like Ukrainians or Russians were denying that they are close, "братские народы" was mentioned until, well, 2014, when a big country with small country complexes decided to throw that out of window.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaaz View Post
    Oh yeah, sorry, my mistake there. Khrushchev was indeed Russian by birth. In my defense, I was confused by him always wearing Ukrainian national shirts

    Now that I have checked, I stand corrected.
    As for Stalin's nationality, this info is from interview of Jacob Dzjugashvili, Stalin's great grandson.

    Google translate to the rescue...

    Dzhugashvili as a name is a mixture of an Osetian word "dzhuga" (meaning a herd or a flock) with a Georgian ending -shvili. Kind of like a shepherd I suppose.


    Here it is indicated that he has Ossetian markers, but this does not mean that there are no Georgian ones. Despite this, the whole world recognizes Ossetia as part of Georgia. If we look at the people of Yakutia, I think their markers will also differ from the majority of Russians. In Georgia and even in Russia, they recognize that Stalin is Georgian by nationality. Georgians are not proud of him and would not assign Georgian roots to him, if this were not so. It is not a good part in the history of the USSR. Yes, his contribution to the victory is very large, but his repressions are known throughout the world.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by EqualPoint5 View Post
    Here it is indicated that he has Ossetian markers, but this does not mean that there are no Georgian ones. Despite this, the whole world recognizes Ossetia as part of Georgia. If we look at the people of Yakutia, I think their markers will also differ from the majority of Russians. In Georgia and even in Russia, they recognize that Stalin is Georgian by nationality. Georgians are not proud of him and would not assign Georgian roots to him, if this were not so. It is not a good part in the history of the USSR. Yes, his contribution to the victory is very large, but his repressions are known throughout the world.
    Do not tell Ossetians that. They might really take offense.
    At first I wanted to write a lengthy explanation, but I simply do not see that you comprehend anything I am trying to tell you.
    1. There was no such thing as Georgia for most of Stalin's life. He was appointed to be a Georgian post mortem based on nothing but his place of birth, that at the actual time of his birth had a completely different name, structure and relations with the outside world. Neither his father, nor his mother were Georgians in any of their documents.
    2. A presence of certain DNA markers that are absent in Georgians points to Ossetian roots.
    3. The only logic behind assignment of Georgian nationality to Stalin is the location of his birth, which only much later became a part of newly formed Georgia. Again, inhabitants of East Jerusalem do not automatically become Israelis after annexation of this territory.
    4. Stalin is actually VERY popular in Georgia. That is partially the reason why they do not want to let go of this myth. The rest simply do not care that much to correct them. According to Forbes, Stalin has about 57% approval rating in Georgia, something that vast majority of presidents all over the world can only dream of.

    5. His repressions are very overblown. 90% of what is known about him in the West is similar to "Russia hacked US presidential elections of 2016". I mean yeah, it creates a nice narrative, a good bedtime story, but actual facts or archives in this case draw a completely different picture. I am sure you are not familiar with the idea of "destruction of cult of personality" introduced by Khrushchev in 1956. He had to create a good basis for himself as a USSR ruler and created a huge smear campaign for Stalin (who was already dead for 3 years). He even admitted that on several occasions in his memoirs, like how he had to exonerate several generals who were shot during first months of the German attack on the USSR. I can not remember the exact quote, but it was something along the lines of "would I have done the same? Definitely. But I had to do it because they were HIS responsibility."
    In essence, the West wanted to smear Stalin because he represented a strong USSR. You need to put a monster in charge, wash the whole country with dirt to demote any positive interest, promote fear, or people may start getting ideas. McCarthy and all that nonsense. And this met a perfect match in Khrushchev's smear campaign from inside the USSR, him wanting to secure his seat of power. Right now, there are so many myths and fabrications around Stalin's figure (who was not a saint by any means), it is extremely hard to see past that. People get easily influenced by smears. Just look at Cardinal Richelieu and what Alexandre Dumas did to his reputation. I bet that anyone who is familiar with his book "The Three Musketeers" or saw any of the films based on it, think that Richelieu was some kind of a monster, whereas in fact he was practically a savior of France as an independent country from Austria and Spain.
    Last edited by Gaaz; 2019-05-02 at 03:15 PM.

  4. #164
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Maybe you're the one being brainwashed though?

    Or perhaps you could acknowledge those victims were part of huge societal transformation that in the end propelled some of those countries to superpower status?

    To the point where some things established/developed under them still happen to be cornerstone of modern society?
    Why am I not surprised that Shalcker is now shilling for Joseph Stalin.
    Putin khuliyo

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Software View Post
    That your constitution stands firmly between Trump and dictatorship + that Trump never won the popular vote are the only reasons the world still has hope for the US ;-)
    I'm not American, if I was I'd be worried about how flimsy and full of holes that constitution is at this point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Why am I not surprised that Shalcker is now shilling for Joseph Stalin.
    How mean of us, making him choose between his "Stalin was a swell dude" and "OMG you guys Hitler wasn't so bad, Stalin was way worse" talking points.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  6. #166
    Blademaster
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    Pure power nostalgia I guess. But these numbers are absolutely frightening, didn't expect these to be that high.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I'm not American, if I was I'd be worried about how flimsy and full of holes that constitution is at this point.
    We will soon find out.

  8. #168
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    This is what Nationalism and blind patriotism does.
    Milli Vanilli, Bigger than Elvis

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaaz View Post
    Do not tell Ossetians that. They might really take offense.
    At first I wanted to write a lengthy explanation, but I simply do not see that you comprehend anything I am trying to tell you.
    1. There was no such thing as Georgia for most of Stalin's life. He was appointed to be a Georgian post mortem based on nothing but his place of birth, that at the actual time of his birth had a completely different name, structure and relations with the outside world. Neither his father, nor his mother were Georgians in any of their documents.
    2. A presence of certain DNA markers that are absent in Georgians points to Ossetian roots.
    3. The only logic behind assignment of Georgian nationality to Stalin is the location of his birth, which only much later became a part of newly formed Georgia. Again, inhabitants of East Jerusalem do not automatically become Israelis after annexation of this territory.
    4. Stalin is actually VERY popular in Georgia. That is partially the reason why they do not want to let go of this myth. The rest simply do not care that much to correct them. According to Forbes, Stalin has about 57% approval rating in Georgia, something that vast majority of presidents all over the world can only dream of.
    5. His repressions are very overblown. 90% of what is known about him in the West is similar to "Russia hacked US presidential elections of 2016". I mean yeah, it creates a nice narrative, a good bedtime story, but actual facts or archives in this case draw a completely different picture. I am sure you are not familiar with the idea of "destruction of cult of personality" introduced by Khrushchev in 1956. He had to create a good basis for himself as a USSR ruler and created a huge smear campaign for Stalin (who was already dead for 3 years). He even admitted that on several occasions in his memoirs, like how he had to exonerate several generals who were shot during first months of the German attack on the USSR. I can not remember the exact quote, but it was something along the lines of "would I have done the same? Definitely. But I had to do it because they were HIS responsibility."
    In essence, the West wanted to smear Stalin because he represented a strong USSR. You need to put a monster in charge, wash the whole country with dirt to demote any positive interest, promote fear, or people may start getting ideas. McCarthy and all that nonsense. And this met a perfect match in Khrushchev's smear campaign from inside the USSR, him wanting to secure his seat of power. Right now, there are so many myths and fabrications around Stalin's figure (who was not a saint by any means), it is extremely hard to see past that. People get easily influenced by smears. Just look at Cardinal Richelieu and what Alexandre Dumas did to his reputation. I bet that anyone who is familiar with his book "The Three Musketeers" or saw any of the films based on it, think that Richelieu was some kind of a monster, whereas in fact he was practically a savior of France as an independent country from Austria and Spain.
    Why do you think that Ossetians might be offended? They are not recognized as a separate country. And the fact that Georgia can be offended does not bother you? I recently visited this country and all the people are peaceful and hospitable. On development, I can tell you that, compared with the past, they are developing faster than any country from the CIS.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by haygarden View Post
    Why do you think that Ossetians might be offended? They are not recognized as a separate country.
    The only thing that matters to Ossetians is that they recognize themselves as separate country from Georgia.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    The only thing that matters to Ossetians is that they recognize themselves as separate country from Georgia.
    I just do not see the logic. After all, they are now part of Russia. And they get no privileges. I have a friend who was in Abkhazia. He said that people are unhappy, because they have no money and nothing develops. Ossetia was lucky that the war in their territory did not last long

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by haygarden View Post
    I just do not see the logic. After all, they are now part of Russia. And they get no privileges. I have a friend who was in Abkhazia. He said that people are unhappy, because they have no money and nothing develops. Ossetia was lucky that the war in their territory did not last long
    If everything would be decided by economics a lot less wars would be fought - and most of all, USSR would never break too, as that made no sense from economic perspective.

    Both Abkhazia and Ossetia won their independence for their own reasons, now they deal with it as they can.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    If everything would be decided by economics a lot less wars would be fought - and most of all, USSR would never break too, as that made no sense from economic perspective.

    Both Abkhazia and Ossetia won their independence for their own reasons, now they deal with it as they can.
    They have no independence. Independence from whom? They play their role in the interests of Russia. Georgia has developed rapidly, and this instability has a strong effect on their economies. Same with Ukraine. Signs of revolution began to appear, so they immediately intervened and now Ukraine is suffering greatly because of the war. This is not small Georgia, there are military forces there. Now they are making fun of the new president and the democratic process that was a month ago. This is all so that in Siberia and Kuban they do not think that something needs to be changed. Russia draws money from many resources, but everything goes to Moscow and to Putin’s friends. Travel to the east of Russia, see how people live there. Is this what people from Abkhazia, Ossetia, Crimea, Donetsk region want?

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by haygarden View Post
    They have no independence. Independence from whom? They play their role in the interests of Russia.
    By same measure Kosovo and Montenegro have no independence, as they "play their role" in the interests of EU/NATO.

    Independence from Georgia, of course; that's what wars were fought over, after all.

    Georgia has developed rapidly, and this instability has a strong effect on their economies. Same with Ukraine. Signs of revolution began to appear, so they immediately intervened and now Ukraine is suffering greatly because of the war.
    Most of that damage is self-inflicted though. Just like in case of Georgia.

    This is not small Georgia, there are military forces there. Now they are making fun of the new president and the democratic process that was a month ago.
    Well, electing president who's only defining trait is playing main role in "rags to riches" comedy "Servant of the People" about school teacher becoming Ukrainian president is pretty funny.

    This is all so that in Siberia and Kuban they do not think that something needs to be changed. Russia draws money from many resources, but everything goes to Moscow and to Putin’s friends. Travel to the east of Russia, see how people live there. Is this what people from Abkhazia, Ossetia, Crimea, Donetsk region want?
    It's still better then what Ukraine gets though, so there is that.

  15. #175
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    In their defense what do they have to choose from?
    They have always and still live under the rule of one allmighty person.

    Picking a Romanov, Putler, Stalin?
    Same shit different name.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    In their defense what do they have to choose from?
    They have always and still live under the rule of one allmighty person.

    Picking a Romanov, Putler, Stalin?
    Same shit different name.
    Not really no difference. If Abkhazia were at the disposal of Georgia, then Saakashvili would start building a resort there as in Batumi. He said it. See the photos of how Batumi was before Saakashvili and how Batumi lives now.

  17. #177
    Probably because the opposition can't vote on account of being in jail/correction camps/the ground and such...

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    Probably because the opposition can't vote on account of being in jail/correction camps/the ground and such...
    Stalin and Putin is evil

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I'm not American, if I was I'd be worried about how flimsy and full of holes that constitution is at this point.

    - - - Updated - - -



    How mean of us, making him choose between his "Stalin was a swell dude" and "OMG you guys Hitler wasn't so bad, Stalin was way worse" talking points.
    Shouldnt you be worried that the right wing won in Australia?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    Probably because the opposition can't vote on account of being in jail/correction camps/the ground and such...
    Russia actually run a campaign to teach the horrors of Stalin. Russians deserve Putin.

  20. #180
    I think this is the result of people here in the west being brainwashed especially by the Hollywood that Soviets were irrelevant in WWII while in fact they suffered the most with 20-30 million dead defending their land, keep in mind we don't call Truman who dropped atomic bombs on the cities full of people or JFK for spraying Vietnamese with Agent Orange as tyrants.

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