Remember when hunters were fine? Zero in M CoS.

[Saulburn]

And you're a bully then

The hunter class is made for players who can't manage too much stuff going on at the same time. It is by far the easiest class to play in mythic raids or high m+ keys. Such a spec shouldn't be a top performer though.

You never played a ret paladin, have you?

[samao]

And you're a bully then

The hunter class is made for players who can't manage too much stuff going on at the same time. It is by far the easiest class to play in mythic raids or high m+ keys. Such a spec shouldn't be a top performer though.

Bring back bullying then if it'll make people like you stop talking

[Kaver]

Bring back bullying then if it'll make people like you stop talking

Freedom of speech mate

Hunter is a ridiculous easy class to play in mythic raiding. And because of that, it is a really good progression spec. That's the truth. And I can't be blamed for just telling the truth

[Eapoe]

Don’t respond to Kaver. He just jumps into Hunter threads to troll.

[MakeMeLaugh]

Damn, looking at this thread the first thought that comes to mind:



My main is a shaman since wotlk, so welcome!

[Bepples]

That's a very nice Survival solution, and it's making me miss the old Survival ways even more, hopefully some Blizzard employee see this

There are a few problems I get stuck on when thinking about what a modern ranged Survival would look like:

- What's the mechanism for generating focus? I talked about Serpent Sting ticks generating focus, but Serpent Sting has always itsef cost focus to use and it's hard to imagine the spec's primary focus generator costing focus to use. Kill Command as it exists for current SV is untenable, so how would a ranged SV do it? It could just default to Steady Shot for a focus filler, but it would probably be better to have a more unique mechanic that avoids prolonged downtime.
- Similarly, what's the focus dump? In the past it's been Arcane Shot, but you could conceivably leave it out and have 100% of the focus going into Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, Serpent Sting, and Multi-Shot. In this situation Serpent Sting would be the only one that doesn't have a cooldown. Perhaps if Lock and Load were frequent enough and worked the same way it did in the WoD beta (where it stacked up to 10 but didn't remove the focus cost) Explosive Shot can actually be the primary focus dump as well as the signature, kind of like how Raptor Strike works now.
- How do you keep it viable on single-target? This is the perennial problem for all multidot specs. There would need to be baseline mechanics and talents that account for situations where multidotting is not an option.
- How does Wildfire Bomb fit in? I actually think it's a cool ability and should be part of any Survival iteration going forward. But the problem now is it has very little iteraction with anything else without Wildfire Infusion. It needs to tie in to the rest of the rotation better. Look at BM and MM; every ability interacts with another in the rotation somehow. Wildfire Bomb's only interaction is with Carve, and it wouldn't make sense in its current form for a ranged Survival which would have Multi-Shot instead as MS lacks a cooldown unlike Carve.

So your counter arguement to my point of saying SV would need a redesign is to say it wouldn’t and then go into the redesigns that would need to happen?
I also never said it couldn’t be possible, I said your point of it being useful how it was before becoming melee was wrong. You actually just agreed with me. It would take a redesign of how everything about the spec works to somehow make it count as a multidot spec.

What I described wouldn't be a total redesign, though. That's a dishonest exaggeration, and this sort of thing is unfortunately common from your posts on this subject. I specifically said:

Voila: the same core gameplay as WoD SV with added multidotting capability. You would still have full mobility, Serpent Sting, Black Arrow, Explosive Shot, and Lock and Load. On top of that you would have real incentive and reward for multidotting and spread AoE.

All the elements people liked about ranged SV would still be there, only more enhanced. I know I've also been describing potential redesigns of SV like in the first part of this post, but a) they aren't required and b) they still preserve the basic gameplay mechanics that made ranged SV stand out. It's certainly more faithful to the pre-Legion iteration than that of Legion MM and SV.

No one expects just MoP/WoD SV with 0 changes. Simply by virtue of being in an era where all the talents were shared among the class whereas now you have spec-specific tiers means it would have to be different. What you can do, however, is come up with a model for ranged SV that iteratively builds on WoD SV and that is not the same thing as a "complete redesign".

Also, while I do like reading my own posts, can you stick to only quoting the part of it to which you're responding?

Everyone ignores him and Kaver, both known troll accounts.

I would like to think there is a far cry between detailed and extensive posts about Survival and just dumping a "Hunters only play the class because they can't handle challenging gameplay" one-liner in every single post. I don't post here to troll. I post here because I legitimately care about the topic. I wouldn't write so much if I were just trolling.

No it would not, SV is one the best melee specs in Dazar'Alor, you won't see it for a while in CoS for the reasons I gave in a previous post. Just stop the harassement with your negativity and disinformation.

So we are in the "upsell Survival to the moon" mode right now?

It really isn't. There are plenty of single-target specs with better utility and plenty with better damage. Survival brings nothing unique to the table. It does, however, replace a potentially reliable ranged player with a melee one, making it doubly undesirable. Even Survival players admit that this is a major part of the reason it has one of the lowest representations of any spec right now.

If you want to see Survival being one of the best melee specs you'll have to go to Uldir... where even then it was still underrepresented because the other major part of its unpopularity is it's avoided by most of its own class. That's the part many Survival players deny, but Blizzard themselves attests to this so it's absolutely true.

Countering people's points is not harassment. Forums aren't some place where you just get to voice your opinions without them being challenged by others. If that's what you're after, you need to make a blog. Forums are for discussion and disagreement is an unavoidable part of it. Nothing I say is disinformation, either.

SV is fine, every one on mmo-c knows you want it to be ranged again, though it's one of the most interesting spec to have in the melee department (behind DH ofc). As soon as more MM casual raid comp show up, I'm expecting decent numbers of SV as they're very good on ST!

It really isn't fine when it's continuing to suck up development time while providing nothing of value to the vast majority of active Hunters, or most other players for that matter. Even if you do like the melee, it has severe design flaws related to theme and identity which make it very much not fine (for example, why does it borrow so much from the Beast Mastery theme?). It clearly isn't very interesting if many WoW players flat out forget it exists. Ranged weapons are more interesting because there are fewer specs that use them, meanwhile there are 13 melee specs. What does Survival have to stand out? Better ranged damage than other melee specs that also have ranged capabilities? Better pet interaction than other melee specs that also have pet interaction? It's theme and aesthetic are actually extremely mediocre at best among melee specs.

Why would you expect decent numbers of SV players to pop up? It's been an unpopular niche spec since it's been melee. It was among the best single-target damage specs in the game for an entire tier (Uldir) and it was still one of the most unplayed specs. There is 0 reason to assume melee SV has any momentum going forward. Every other time someone "guaranteed" it would get an influx of players it never materialised, i.e. the 7.1.5 buffs and Method's Gul'Dan kill, the 8.0 redesign, the Uldir performance. It's time to accept that melee SV will always be unpopular.

[Ashina]

Another wall of text of "I'm right" "No I'm right!"

Just slide into your DMs.

[Rustov]

How do you keep it viable on single-target? This is the perennial problem for all multidot specs. There would need to be baseline mechanics and talents that account for situations where multidotting is not an option.

Remember that Cobra Shot extended Serpent Sting's duration during MoP; this was removed in WoD. I always liked this part of the rotation and think it would help fill that single-target scenario. Add some additional interactions- have Cobra Shot stacks Serpent Sting's damage or increases Black Arrow's damage, or similar.

Ah, well, I'm beyond hope Blizz will return Survival to the way it was. They hate going back on class design. I'd settle for MM adopting 5.3 Survival playstyle as a talent build. We're mostly there already, just need to add Serpent Spread, Steady Shot refreshing Serpent Sting, and Explosive Shot as a replacement for Aimed.

[Kaver]

Don’t respond to Kaver. He just jumps into Hunter threads to troll.

No one is trolling.

I just think ease of play should be considered when discussing logs and performance.

You cant just call “troll” everytime you hear something you dont like.

[Specialka]

No one is trolling.

I just think ease of play should be considered when discussing logs and performance.

You cant just call “troll” everytime you hear something you dont like.

Since most specs are easy to play, what is the big deal? Which one is the hardest to play?

[Kaver]

Since most specs are easy to play, what is the big deal? Which one is the hardest to play?

There is a big difference in how easy specs are to navigate in mythic raids. I think that should be considered in discussions about balancing. BM is by far the easiest spec to play in a mythic raiding environment.

[Specialka]

Obv, no cast time, 100% mobility.
What about MM or survival since we are in the hunter forum.

[Kaver]

Obv, no cast time, 100% mobility.
What about MM or survival since we are in the hunter forum.

Is there a BM forum somewhere?

[Atraxxa]

I wouldn't mind if they bring back the old ranged survival gameplay in the form of a new Dark ranger hero class, it would fit the class pretty well. I think we could use a true archer type class cause hunter has moved away from the archer archetype imo.

[Kaver]

I wouldn't mind if they bring back the old ranged survival gameplay in the form of a new Dark ranger hero class, it would fit the class pretty well. I think we could use a true archer type class cause hunter has moved away from the archer archetype imo.

Only Undeads can be Dark Rangers.

[Specialka]

Is there a BM forum somewhere?

I was asking if you consider MM and Survival easy spec to play in a raid (MM or not).

[Atraxxa]

Only Undeads can be Dark Rangers.

That would be ok, only elves could be Dh's so why not!

[Kaver]

That would be ok, only elves could be Dh's so why not!

So only Horde can play the spec?

[Atraxxa]

So only Horde can play the spec?

nah they would have to introduce some alliance version of undead to the game to keep the masses from revolting ofcourse

[Kaver]

nah they would have to introduce some alliance version of undead to the game to keep the masses from revolting ofcourse

What about “non-undead” hunters? Would they only be able to play 2 specs then? Or would Dark Ranger be added as a fourth spec that only undead can play?