Thousands of German students protest against maths exam deemed 'too difficult'

[Nellise]

He answers every single question right on a 50 question math quiz.
Gets a 75% for not showing his work. Fuck off teachers he knew every answer.

That's been the way it's been in schools forever though. In Math, the process while learning is more important than the answer. I'm guessing one of the instructions was "Show your work", so he didn't follow instructions. (I'm not blaming him, I used to do the same thing all the time, then I learned to do it the way it was asked of me.)

[luc54]

I don't think they're published anywhere, although they're not classified in any manner. It's just that there's no market for them. Teachers have access to old exams to give their students preparation exams (dry runs, if you will), but other than that... I'm not aware of any place you could look them up.

While I'm here, though, two things that crossed my minds. And yes, I know they're contradictory:

1. Students will usually pick up any reason they can find to protest anything regarding school. It's just something they do when they feel treated unfairly, which is pretty much all the time. Source: Myself and every one of you, you know how you were...

2. When Bavarian students joined this protest, it's a sign to me that something went wrong. Bavaria is notorious for having the hardest school system in Germany. When they start bitching, there may be something to it.

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Not in Germany. They have no problems failing an entire class if everyone fucks up. You're right or you're wrong. Your fellow students being wrong doesn't make your own result better or worse. Averaging a score based on the overall performance of the entire class is a stupid system and I hope no educational system on this planet does that. It would inevitably lead to the dumbification of humanity.

Hmm that's kinda odd. We have borrowed the name Abitur from Germany and the last year students in high school/gymnasium are called Abiturient. We also have standarized end exams and all the tests are public on the internet, if you want to test your skills. Though our scores are relative so you can still get best grade despite getting less points than other years if you fall within 5% of the top scores.

Without seeing the exam questions it's kinda hard to say one way or another. This reminds me of the case last year ago here where English exam contained the word "fey" and some other oddities. If someone actually played wow or read some fantasy books they would have surely known the word. I can see why people consider it unfair, but it also helps seperate the best from the rest. It only really works cosidering we have relative scoring as pointed above.

[Afrospinach]

That's a pretty silly comparison, I'd argue the second method better illustrates the core concepts. The former is simply rote learning.

It is not "rote" learning it is a method.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I don't understand what that picture means.

If I had to guess then it looks like an elementry school type scheme to do subtraction without properly introducing subtraction first. Since you can't grade much by just writing one number below another, this system would produce a solution path which can be graded and would work as an intermediary system for subtraction, it might be vaguely related to other approaches like working with binary complement. The way is obviously extremly roundabout and serves no practical purpose other than "look, there are multiple ways, today I want you to use my stupid one" as a meta lesson. I can't see any benefit here, even if you use larger numbers, in fact more digits make this one even worse.

If my guess is right then I'm just glad that my teachers back then had the wisdom to grade math questions that simply produce a result just as that and keep the solution path for when it actually made sense 5-6 years later. Education is constantly trying new things but alot of them are just flat out misguided and always have been to be honest.

[Slant]

Pretty much every professor in uni does that. While they can't completely turn the scales upside down, all of them will shift the grading scale to reflect a bell curve for statistics.

Not in the courses I attended at uni. They culled the entire year by half in the second semester. Not because they needed to, but because they told us it was the second semester that traditionally most students fail to ramp up their efforts after the introduction stuff is over in the first semester. Bell curve? Has nothing to do with it.

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Hmm that's kinda odd. We have borrowed the name Abitur from Germany and the last year students in high school/gymnasium are called Abiturient. We also have standarized end exams and all the tests are public on the internet, if you want to test your skills. Though our scores are relative so you can still get best grade despite getting less points than other years if you fall within 5% of the top scores.

Without seeing the exam questions it's kinda hard to say one way or another. This reminds me of the case last year ago here where English exam contained the word "fey" and some other oddities. If someone actually played wow or read some fantasy books they would have surely known the word. I can see why people consider it unfair, but it also helps seperate the best from the rest. It only really works cosidering we have relative scoring as pointed above.

Dude, I am getting old. It's entirely possible that everything is online these days. I have never heard of it, but why not? They're not kept secret or something. I absolutely think it's possible that they got questions that were too hard. And since it's a centralized test, you would come up with protests everywhere.

Last time I was involved in the Abitur, it was up to three teachers to decide on the final score. They don't compare and then make up notes to get a perfect statistical bell curve. They have specified target answers that are meant to be nailed by the student with specific scores. That's where the exam creator thinks about statistics. But the evaluation really is not statistical at all, it's purely teacher evaluation. And one of them teachers is the one that taught you (another one from your school that you didn't take a class with and an external one from another school, I believe).

[Puri]

Wow, how did that make international news. Every single year people claim that the test was too hard, just because they can now post it loudly into the internet and start pointless petitions doesn't give it more validity. I had no real problem answering the test (and in fact find those questions ridiculously easy), and also the bavarian philological society agrees that this test was not hard at all. Much ado about nothing.

As for the actual topic, maybe @Slant can help here. Do you release your exam questions in the internet? I would like see them.

The part that is in question is available here (understanding german is mandatory, obviously).

[laplacedemon]

School exams are only used to get into college, and if in a specific year they are equally difficult to everyone, where's the unfairness?

It's more complicated than that. Abitur isn't the same across the whole country and states have their own rules. In some states you have to take math as a class and the written exam. In others you can forego the written exam for the oral one. In some, you can change math exam with any other natural sciences and I think in Berlin you just have to take the class.

On top of that, while states pick the questions from a "question pool", it's not completely standardised either. For example, as a student you can get a "Answer 2 out of these 5 questions" in one state while in other you will get 2 pre-picked questions. On top of that, states have slightly different weights for subjects which changes the Abitur note depending on where you took it.

Bear in mind that you can't retake the exam if you got a passing grade, but it's valid for your whole life so if you were to take a year off or study something else, you would be up against people who took an easier exam.

[Molis]

That's been the way it's been in schools forever though. In Math, the process while learning is more important than the answer. I'm guessing one of the instructions was "Show your work", so he didn't follow instructions. (I'm not blaming him, I used to do the same thing all the time, then I learned to do it the way it was asked of me.)

He did on his next test, and even made a comment to my wife about it.

It just felt fake. Like he showed his work very nonchalantly.

I get what you are saying about the process

[Cosmic Janitor]

Not in the courses I attended at uni. They culled the entire year by half in the second semester. Not because they needed to, but because they told us it was the second semester that traditionally most students fail to ramp up their efforts after the introduction stuff is over in the first semester. Bell curve? Has nothing to do with it.

Maybe you didn't notice? While it's true that they filter heavily, especially in STEM during the first 2 semesters, all universities and other institutes of higher learning have a vested interest in a certain amount of people graduating their programs, their funds partically depend on it. Why do you think they invent and acredit new programs like crazy, even if they just used to be specialisations of more general programs? It's because every student earns them money. While some professors might not care about failing a whole course, I can guarante you that the professor usually tries to not pull that one too often.

[Granyala]

If they are demonstrating to lower difficulty in Bavaria only, I can kind of understand it because Bavarian exams are WAY harder than those of other states. Bringing them into line would be fair.

If they want to lower difficulty across the board: Yeah, lol.

[Azadina]

It's not random. 32-12=20
They start from the second number, and try to get up to 32 in increments of 5 / 10.
12+3=15
15+5=20
20+10=30
30+2=32
3+5+10+2=20

With small numbers like this... it's really pointless. It's more work writing it all down than just getting the answer in a fraction of that time.
I mean... you can calculate addition and subtraction with 6 digit numbers in your head usually.

That's all there needs to be. *shakes head* Hell...

12 + 56 = 68
68 - 1 = 67
8 - 5 = 3
3 + 99 = 102
102 + 67 = 169
33 - 169 = -136
5 / 1 = 5
4 + 3 = 7
5 x 7 = 35
35 x 6 = 210
-136 + 210 = 74
74 - 54 = 20
20! Woot! I totally made it! I mean...is it some bizarro world where people can't do simple math, so they need some nonsensical and complex way to arrive to the same conclusion? In simplest terms I can think of, one needs to be an einstein to be a moron.

[d00mGuArD]

That's all there needs to be. *shakes head* Hell...

12 + 56 = 68
68 - 1 = 67
8 - 5 = 3
3 + 99 = 102
102 + 67 = 169
33 - 169 = -136
5 / 1 = 5
4 + 3 = 7
5 x 7 = 35
35 x 6 = 210
-136 + 210 = 74
74 - 54 = 20
20! Woot! I totally made it! I mean...is it some bizarro world where people can't do simple math, so they need some nonsensical and complex way to arrive to the same conclusion? In simplest terms I can think of, one needs to be an einstein to be a moron.

hahahaha well those are random calculations the other guys are using some logic
like

19876 - 980:
start with 980
and we need 20 to reach 1000,
and 18000 to reach 19000
and 876 to reach 19876.
add those, (20+18000+879) and that is 18896, the answer

[Azadina]

hahahaha well those are random calculations the other guys are using some logic
like

19876 - 980:
start with 980
and we need 20 to reach 1000,
and 18000 to reach 19000
and 876 to reach 19876.
add those, (20+18000+879) and that is 18896, the answer

Well, why not do this while at it:

19876 - 980:
980 - 876:
900 - 800 = 100
80 - 76 = 4
100 + 4 = 104
19000 - 104:
1000 - 100 = 900
900 - 4 = 896
18000 + 896 = 18896

Might have even made a mistake coming up with this BS, but that has about the same amount of "logic". It's broken down to smaller bits that's for sure. Oh..and in case the answer starts with "well, why would you do that when you could...", indeed, my point exactly

[d00mGuArD]

Well, why not do this while at it:

19876 - 980:
980 - 876:
900 - 800 = 100
80 - 76 = 4
100 + 4 = 104
19000 - 104:
1000 - 100 = 900
900 - 4 = 896
18000 + 896 = 18896

Might have even made a mistake coming up with this BS, but that has about the same amount of "logic". It's broken down to smaller bits that's for sure. Oh..and in case the answer starts with "well, why would you do that when you could...", indeed, my point exactly

Actually the other guys have a logic. They use addition only, which for most people is easier.

Your technique is still using subtraction, so it does not offer any benefit

[Tabrotar]

Fuck, I clicked. Now my youtube-feed will be filled with right-wing, misogynistic crap by incel man-babies.

Oh no someone shows how stupid this shit is and now i would have to look at it instead of going lalala and living in my own dreamworld...

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I don't think they're published anywhere, although they're not classified in any manner. It's just that there's no market for them. Teachers have access to old exams to give their students preparation exams (dry runs, if you will), but other than that... I'm not aware of any place you could look them up.

While I'm here, though, two things that crossed my minds. And yes, I know they're contradictory:

1. Students will usually pick up any reason they can find to protest anything regarding school. It's just something they do when they feel treated unfairly, which is pretty much all the time. Source: Myself and every one of you, you know how you were...

2. When Bavarian students joined this protest, it's a sign to me that something went wrong. Bavaria is notorious for having the hardest school system in Germany. When they start bitching, there may be something to it.

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Not in Germany. They have no problems failing an entire class if everyone fucks up. You're right or you're wrong. Your fellow students being wrong doesn't make your own result better or worse. Averaging a score based on the overall performance of the entire class is a stupid system and I hope no educational system on this planet does that. It would inevitably lead to the dumbification of humanity.

Isn´t saxony the one with the best school system here?

[Azadina]

Actually the other guys have a logic. They use addition only, which for most people is easier.

Your technique is still using subtraction, so it does not offer any benefit

Yes, there are subtractions in it, but those parts if you look closely are broken down, aka dumbed down to kindergarten level. I mean...you didn't just use an argument that those are too hard, and thus must be avoided at all costs?

[Themius]

Germans are simply not that good in Math



source: https://www.nationmaster.com/country...tical-literacy

edit: Yes yes, people already told me it is old!

Japan and South Korea. Both have abhorrent unchecked cheating.

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Depends on the math really... are they complaining about nonsensical math like the infamous common core questions example:



I don't really know enough about their situation to comment.

32
-15
___

The old way...

make 3 =2
make 2 =12

now do 12-5 to get 7
then 2-1 to get 1

17

new way

round down to 30, what is 30/2? that is 15 add 2 back to 15 = 17

The new way is literally typically how you actually do math, mentally.

If someone says 28 - 12

you round up to 30 take away 10 to get 20 and then because you went up 2 and you have another 2 to subtract take away 4 to get 16.

Or you can say 28 minus 2 = 26, then take away 10 to get 16.

common core is essentially teaching the fundamentals of math vs "just do this because the rule works.." it teaches kids to truly "get" it and understand the why.

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i cannot wait to pick my kid up from school early one day because she told the teacher this is fucking stupid. she will get a treat that day.

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whatever. just like constipation, i will work my math out with a pencil on paper.

Stubborn parents who don't get it and don't wish to get it because "I didn't learn this way" are the bane of progress...

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lol right. I looked at that and thought wtf is that shit!? This cannot be how they seriously teach subtraction now?

the old way of teaching subtraction was stupid.

Why if you have 32-15 does 2 become 12? Why is 2 going up by 10 and why is 3 going down by 1? Most kids and most adults can't explain this most don't know "why" or how it works just that "it works"

If you want to teach children the fundamentals of math so they truly understand it you have to teach "how" math works not just that "this shit works don't worry about knowing why"

[Themius]

This might be a little misleading - I did a search and the above seems to be intended for 2nd grade = 7-8 years old, and those have to count within 100.

The "old fashion" way is still better, no doubt, but it's probably still introduced, just a little later, that's all. Or maybe it's already there and the "new" way is just an alternative method if some 7-8 year old folk find it easier.

The old fashion way is not intuitive nor is it how most people even do mental math. Most mental math is done with a lot of rounding, while retaining the original number you rounded away from to get a final answer. How many people in their heads actually go "carry the 1 and then ...." no.. they round and remember they had a 2.

[Flurryfang]

Well it actually might be a valid protest. If the complaint was "we can't do it" just because it was hard, i would say that they should study harder, but the problem seems like the level has been increased over the last few years and it has now come to a point, where the education system can not follow. It is 100% unfair to test students in subjects or areas, that they have not been taught. It is also possible, that they are expecting too much of them, that the schools demand the students to learn something in 1 year/semester, that would normally require 2 or even 3.

So i would say, that the protest makes it obvious, that people should look at the test, look at the past tests and look at what the school is actually teaching them. There is proberly a problem there, since so many students are protesting at this level.

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Yeah studying is hard, not everyone can do it, otherwise this world would be filled with engineers and rocket scientist.

Yeah, not everybody wants to be engineers or rocket scientists. Just because they pay well, does mean people see themselves happy in those positions xD

[Tack980]

How is that new way even supposed to work? I passed some math classes in university and don't get what's the logic there. I'm feeling really stupid right now.
Is it just "any way to get from 12 to 32 and then add it"?

its just dumb fancy adding in simplistic multiples

start with 12, get it to a easy multiple of 5 so add 3 to get 15 (3)
multiple of 10 is easier, add 5 to get 20 (5)
do as many +10 as you can to get to 32 without passing it (20 + 10) = 30 (10)
add the rest (2)

The idea is that it's way easier to keep track in your head ( i added x number of tens, a 5 , a 2 and a 3) instead of worrying about carryovers.

Its actually how i mentally subtract large numbers, less crap to remember.

However on a paper exam, It shouldn't matter what method you use and the problem is that. They make you memorize all versions, and for some
reason force you to use the method that might technically be quicker, but absolutely no one uses because the methods are typically use by math
majors and accountants ( and only a few at that), and confuse everyone else as they typically require experience in number manipulation that most
parents (and 7 year olds) don't have.

Im all for teaching alternative methods, but its just taught as "this is the tenth way to do x, now you need to memorize it" instead of " here is a neat
trick that shows how adding and subtracting are related and is optional"