Thousands of German students protest against maths exam deemed 'too difficult'

[Slant]

Maybe you didn't notice? While it's true that they filter heavily, especially in STEM during the first 2 semesters, all universities and other institutes of higher learning have a vested interest in a certain amount of people graduating their programs, their funds partically depend on it. Why do you think they invent and acredit new programs like crazy, even if they just used to be specialisations of more general programs? It's because every student earns them money. While some professors might not care about failing a whole course, I can guarante you that the professor usually tries to not pull that one too often.

German universities don't depend on graduation numbers for funding. Most of the money comes from the state and is a fixed amount determined by the ministry for education. That's why we usually don't have bullshit programs like gender studies and other nonsense from the anglosphere here. That's why we have courses that teach knowledge and flunk everyone who isn't good enough.

The professor was well known for decades for giving the same speech at the beginning.. you know the one: look left, look right... only he wasn't joking about it. This isn't him being mean, this is students not being determined enough to manage the material. And yes, I know what I'm talking about. I passed the course. Only just. Had I actually studied, I'd have done better. Anyone who failed the course really, really did nothing whatsoever in preparation. If people follow my posting here, they'll notice I'm a pedantic ass about human rights. This is the course that made me.

[Software]

Nothing special, happens in Germany/The Netherlands/ many Western European countries often.

[Slant]

Isn´t saxony the one with the best school system here?

Could be, times change. Last time I had any passing interest in school systems, Bavaria had the (deserved) reputation of having the best students due to the strictest school system. Perhaps they have been overtaken by Saxony. There's no reason why not.

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Well it actually might be a valid protest. If the complaint was "we can't do it" just because it was hard, i would say that they should study harder, but the problem seems like the level has been increased over the last few years and it has now come to a point, where the education system can not follow. It is 100% unfair to test students in subjects or areas, that they have not been taught. It is also possible, that they are expecting too much of them, that the schools demand the students to learn something in 1 year/semester, that would normally require 2 or even 3.

So i would say, that the protest makes it obvious, that people should look at the test, look at the past tests and look at what the school is actually teaching them. There is proberly a problem there, since so many students are protesting at this level.

I agree, this sounds like a systemic problem and worth looking into. The main complaint these students seem to have isn't that the test was too hard, the main complaint was that preparation for the test in the two years before was lacking and that while the problems were absolutely solveable for them, it would have required them much more time to figure stuff out than exam time is (usually 4 hours per exam). It's a valid point, considering I read an article that said a maths teacher needed 15 hours to solve the exam.

[nymphetsss]

I'm going to have to assume the second is some kind of a joke. Otherwise I'll lose faith in humanity. I mean, what on earth is going on with the random numbers pulled out of thin air to calculate for no reason to boot.

I was helping my friends 11 year old multiply and divide fractions, Apparently the way I do it is wrong ( even though im constantly using the methods i was taught 20 years ago every day) and they expected her to do it in a style similar to that example

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Japan and South Korea. Both have abhorrent unchecked cheating.

You got a citation on that? I'd be interested to know if it's statistically worse than other countries.

[Nurasu]

I was helping my friends 11 year old multiply and divide fractions, Apparently the way I do it is wrong ( even though im constantly using the methods i was taught 20 years ago every day) and they expected her to do it in a style similar to that example

The way you're doing it isn't "wrong", but common core students will be able to do mental math with larger numbers than traditional students. Just accept that you're old and outdated and move on.

[Cosmic Janitor]

German universities don't depend on graduation numbers for funding. Most of the money comes from the state and is a fixed amount determined by the ministry for education. That's why we usually don't have bullshit programs like gender studies and other nonsense from the anglosphere here. That's why we have courses that teach knowledge and flunk everyone who isn't good enough.

The professor was well known for decades for giving the same speech at the beginning.. you know the one: look left, look right... only he wasn't joking about it. This isn't him being mean, this is students not being determined enough to manage the material. And yes, I know what I'm talking about. I passed the course. Only just. Had I actually studied, I'd have done better. Anyone who failed the course really, really did nothing whatsoever in preparation. If people follow my posting here, they'll notice I'm a pedantic ass about human rights. This is the course that made me.

That is a bit too simplified. Besides some inititatives to the contrary, the funding depends on the people actually visiting your uni. They get more money if more people attend because "they need it". If you want people to take your programms you need to be able to advertise to a certain point that it's actually possible to graduate the program. Unless my prof. was bullshitting me, I think it's rather plausible that today there are even some economic descisions when it comes an academic education. The pure merit based system died with bologna, if not before that.

Edit: This also wasn't about creating completely made up programs, it's mostly about dividing up programs that would have a base curriculum and specialisation later into programs that still pretty much have the base one and slighly more deph later on. Some do that already during bachelor programs, other focus more on specialized master programms instead of just letting you pick and choose from a larger pool of courses. Since every uni can do that on their own it varies widely.

[Slant]

That is a bit too simplified. Besides some inititatives to the contrary, the funding depends on the people actually visiting your uni. They get more money if more people attend because "they need it". If you want people to take your programms you need to be able to advertise to a certain point that it's actually possible to graduate the program. Unless my prof. was bullshitting me, I think it's rather plausible that today there are even some economic descisions when it comes an academic education. The pure merit based system died with bologna, if not before that.

Well, no university wants to graduate 0 students. But I think this maths test shows how much of an outlier that actually is for both school and university.

[Tabrotar]

It's an attempt to teach bad students how to think the way good students think. While obviously that example is terrible, the better math students do tend to do mental math by breaking things down into simpler problems... for example, I've had kids who were amazed that multiplying 5 is the same as dividing by 2 them multiplying by 10, but to best students that is obvious because they've figured that out (or to do a 20% tip, double it and them divide by 10, etc.).

Whether this method works is highly questionable. What separates math students at the elementary level is like 99% about student engagement and effort. Students who are active, try to see patterns and push the envelope, develop their own shortcuts for things, etc. will always do better than the ones who just sit there and wait for the teacher to spoonfeed them answers or memorize a bunch of steps.

I honestly think that the issue is not the teaching method, it's that we're too easy on kids in the US when it comes to math. We don't demand adequate mastery of a topic before students are allowed to progress to the next one.

It's crazy to say this but I'm dead serious: I think we'd be better off if instead of cramming algebra into the brains of unprepared teenagers, we instead demanded absolute mastery (i.e. 80-85% correct on a test) of grade school math as a prerequisite for high school graduation. Addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, negative numbers, percents, decimals, fractions, word problems with statistics in them ("one third of blah and 20% of blahblah").

It's amazing to me that the majority of adults walk around with opinions and thoughts in their heads about how the world works, yet then cannot, CANNOT understand the simplest of articles with a few statistics in them. I don't get how they even think that their opinion should even matter when they are so clueless.

Again, crazy to think, but that's actually a much higher standard than our high school grads are held to right now.

Oh look someone has a opinion and I think he´s clueless so lets ignore his opinion bcs I know better...

Welcome to how the people on top look down on anyone, really a great example.

[Mormolyce]

It is not "rote" learning it is a method.

It is an algorithm that you follow. You learn that algorithm by rote.

It's something many educators seek to redress: often in classes children simply follow instructions and don't think.

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This is what happened after they dropped the "say no to drugs" campaign.

Any teacher stoned enough to write that on the chalkboard better have brought enough for the whole class.

It makes perfect sense if you think about it.

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How can you call that rote learning? Yes you have to remember how to do simple one digit suabstraction sometimes subtracting one digit from number between 10 to 19. This simplifies things and doesn't require so many steps. Also when you are doing division you've got to do the former anyway. It makes no sense to teach there me one and then the old one when teaching division.

It's not meant to be a more practical algorithm. Obviously in the real world nobody bothers to subtract on paper, you'd use a calculator.

The point is to make children think about how subtraction works.

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i cannot wait to pick my kid up from school early one day because she told the teacher this is fucking stupid. she will get a treat that day.

They aren't, though. This is an education technique.

The new way isn't a new way of doing actual subtraction. The "new way" is to get your phone out...

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rote learning has to do with repetition, the old way had nothing to do with repetition. you could give me any 2 real numbers in existence and i could very quickly use the traditional way to get the answer using basic arithmetic. the "new" way is convoluted for no good reason. i majored in math in college, and the new ways they are teaching kids is just gross and ruining the simplicity of math that drew me into it so many years ago. if i grew up with the new teaching i would have hated math.

It's not for no good reason. Children today do not have any need for a fast algorithm to subtract numbers, that is a pointless skill in a world of computers.

The point of this exercise is to make them demonstrate that they understand what numbers mean.

[Quaade]

"Too difficult" is possible and should be taken seriously instead of being laughed at.

I had a teacher in high school that also taught to university students.

The teacher saw us as failures because we struggled with the content. Which was natural since the material was aimed at university students and skipped the high school level of knowledge.

[kamuimac]

Could be, times change. Last time I had any passing interest in school systems, Bavaria had the (deserved) reputation of having the best students due to the strictest school system. Perhaps they have been overtaken by Saxony. There's no reason why not.

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I agree, this sounds like a systemic problem and worth looking into. The main complaint these students seem to have isn't that the test was too hard, the main complaint was that preparation for the test in the two years before was lacking and that while the problems were absolutely solveable for them, it would have required them much more time to figure stuff out than exam time is (usually 4 hours per exam). It's a valid point, considering I read an article that said a maths teacher needed 15 hours to solve the exam.

well if math teacher with University degree needs this much time to solve simple high school test then sorry but this speaks volumes about the level of education those people were reciving.

[Slant]

This is a catastrophe. If they provide you a knowledge which allows you to solve the problem, problem is in student, not the professors. Man the fuck up. I don't want civilization of pussies and weaklings. Especially when you have to deal with numbers and not axes or guns.

That's the main complaint, though. The students feel they weren't properly prepared for it and the time was not enough to solve it.

[Xath]

Depends on the math really... are they complaining about nonsensical math like the infamous common core questions example:



I don't really know enough about their situation to comment.

What is this mess?

Feels like somebody tried to set up base 5 but has no clue

32-12 is much easier just do as 30-10 anytime you have the same trailing digits there is basically zero issue that seems like complexity for the sake of complexity.

[PL-Cibo]

In fairness, the reason many European countries do so well on standardized tests is that they very much teach to the test (actually have a German relative that admitted as much)...so the students do have a point that it is a fundamental change.

this is funnily enough a very german reaction. thanks to their strange numerus clausus shit, higher learning demand specific averages to get entry at specific universities. PISA however is something completely different. We are good with these tests, because they are quite easy. Normally in central Europe(because I only know how it's done there and don't infer from one country to the whole continent) you get 7 years of normal theory and learn not for tests but just after defined teaching plan. The last year however is different. It is mostly used to prepare the students for the abitur/matura however you want to call it. Depending on the school of course.

Thing is, I am saying what I am saying because I know that there is no problem that cannot be solved and in my experience, all I ever knew are students that want to get it easier through instead of working harder. I am definitely supporting complainants when you feel tricked if you do not have adequate knowledge to work with but there is part of me that is suspicious of students because I have seen so many times professors giving just tiny "tricks" in order to solve problem and students are unable to be "inventive" or think good enough and they complain that exams are too difficult.

Never been to a university, I see. And being inventive is not an aspect of basic education. You need to be able to solve all problems you have learned, thats all. To invent new solutions to mathematical problems? Not at this stage i would say.

[THEORACLE64]

Yeah studying is hard, not everyone can do it, otherwise this world would be filled with engineers and rocket scientist.

There’s a bit of a leap between being able to do basic maths and then the level required to be an engineer or a rocket scientist. The main issue here doesn’t seem to be that it’s just hard, but the fact that there was elements included in the test which hadn’t been included in the curriculum they were taught and that there was too many questions for the allocated time. If that is the case then that is unfair, despite and which angle you look at it.

[Slant]

Thing is, I am saying what I am saying because I know that there is no problem that cannot be solved and in my experience, all I ever knew are students that want to get it easier through instead of working harder. I am definitely supporting complainants when you feel tricked if you do not have adequate knowledge to work with but there is part of me that is suspicious of students because I have seen so many times professors giving just tiny "tricks" in order to solve problem and students are unable to be "inventive" or think good enough and they complain that exams are too difficult.

I know what you're saying. I've pointed this out before. We've all been students, we all know the urge to protest whenever, if only to waste time during class and to see how far we could take it.

However, this is widespread and while I admittedly haven't looked too deeply, there doesn't seem to be many voices (I haven't seen just one) that say the test was actually adequate and they should just man up and take the bad grade.

Thinking back to my exams, I'm puzzled about students not having a choice. I know in the subjects I took the exam in, there was a pool of three exams... one got eliminated by the teachers overseeing the exam and we could choose between the remaining two at the beginning of the exam. The purpose is to help students avoid these problems. Perhaps everything changed, or it's not done that way in maths.

Edit:

Not sure if they were posted before, but here are exerpts from the actual exam you're discussing:

https://www.spiegel.de/media/media-44422.pdf
https://www.spiegel.de/media/media-44423.pdf

I suck at maths, I physically detest it, so I'm not even qualified to comment on them or make a proper translation. Perhaps someone with more affinity for fucked up cryptic bullshit can do it so you guys can figure out if you think it's really outrageous or if it should be solveable.

Here's a German maths dude discussing it (in German obviously):

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLy...Js81Z6Ju_Kdbmg

[AIBot]

The article is very poor with the translation. Not sure why this article waffles about high-schools.

High school, gymnasium, secondary school are the same thing, but they are focusing on different subjects. In gymnasium you are going to learn the basic subjects on a higher level. In highschool (for example IT High School) you are going to learn programming, networking, english and the basic subjects.
Maybe "high school" seems confusing for you.
In my coutry you start in elementary school (8 years) then you can go to secondary school/gymnasium/highschool (we call it "middle school") or vocational school (if you want to be a workman).
After the final exam in highschool, if you earned enough points, you can apply for college/universities.

I thought the same system works in Germany.

[Mendzia]

I was always sad to me that math and especially physics are considered to be 'hard'.

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

Stubborn parents who don't get it and don't wish to get it because "I didn't learn this way" are the bane of progress...

do you even have kids?

anyways, i wasn't a stellar math student. the only way i got through math was working it out like i did. throwing 8 other numbers in there seems fucking retarded to me.

the bane of society is people like you who just aren't satisfied or can't cope with life the way it is, so you must try everything you can to change it. changing things just to say you did. don't try to fix what isn't broke, kid.