A caravan of Americans is crossing the Canadian border to get affordable medial care

[Flarelaine]

There's no way they'll introduce some form of control and regulations over the industry because Big Pharma is likely in the pockets of those who actually have the ability to make it happen.

Don't you mean the other way round?

[XangXu]

If there coming over to buy insulin your taxes aren’t paying for them.

Cool. I still don’t want your people to be healthy. Do I need to be clearer on this?

[alturic]

Don't you mean the other way round?

Kinda makes you want to get rid of human congressmen and senators actually voting on laws, no? Introduce a bill, run a nice large entropy random number generator and 0 means not passed, 1 means passed. Should speed up the gridlock, and provide zero political influence.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Cool. I still don’t want your people to be healthy. Do I need to be clearer on this?

Why wouldn’t you want your fellow canuck‘s to be healthy that’s not very neighbourly of you.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

Don't you mean the other way round?

I meant it in a way that Big Pharma is putting money in their pockets due to lobbying but I think you're right.

[XangXu]

That’s a lot of hate for a lot of people.

What happened to you to make you despise millions of people? Surely, you don’t think all Americans think and act the same? That would be asinine to think like that.

Every American I have interacted with seems to be the same. They may act friendly. They may have voted for Obama. But it’s the kind of thing where “being nice” shouldn’t be used to see who they really are. I’ve met nice Americans until they make some horrible fucking racist joke and think nothing of it. Until they get their shit together, they are the enemy in my eyes. Not just to my country, but to my species.

[Themius]

I don't really get why people want to make this a black and white issue. Yes I think healthcare should be completely controlled by the state as you can't barter for better prices and services while having a heart attack making healthcare a poor fit for the capitalist model.

That said as a Canadian I will admit to having some pretty absurd wait times for even standard check ups much less specialized care. While I think the Canadian system is superior it isn't without its own issues.

I have insurance and to get a scan my doctor said I needed it took a year... because my doctor had to fight with my insurance who determined I didn't need the scan when my doctor said I did..

[Independent voter]

Until they[Americans] get their shit together, they are the enemy in my eyes. Not just to my country, but to my species.

/pat

/pat

[Enthusiastic Steward]

Every American I have interacted with seems to be the same. They may act friendly. They may have voted for Obama. But it’s the kind of thing where “being nice” shouldn’t be used to see who they really are. I’ve met nice Americans until they make some horrible fucking racist joke and think nothing of it. Until they get their shit together, they are the enemy in my eyes. Not just to my country, but to my species.

Then you should want us to be healthy. Look at it this way, you have a very powerful neighbor. Do you want them generally content or in a state of chaos flailing wildly, lashing out at whomever happens to be nearby?

[alturic]

Every American I have interacted with seems to be the same. They may act friendly. They may have voted for Obama. But it’s the kind of thing where “being nice” shouldn’t be used to see who they really are. I’ve met nice Americans until they make some horrible fucking racist joke and think nothing of it. Until they get their shit together, they are the enemy in my eyes. Not just to my country, but to my species.

It's a joke?

[Ivanstone]

EDIT: The question I have is this. The insulin that costs $xxx in the US but a fraction of that in Canada (or other countries), is it the same company? Same type? Same delivery mechanism?

If all of those are yes, I wouldn't be opposed to congress/senate holding hearing asking these drug manufacturer's why there is such a dramatic price difference for the exact same medication across countries. Of course it would be pointless as the answers wouldn't actually be provided but that would at least be a start to understanding why it's the case. At that point, it would almost seem like these companies use the US to subsidize low prices for other countries, because outside of that I can't see a valid reason. Unless there's things like much looser legal protections in the US, etc that these companies have to try offsetting potential losses.

American drug companies usually just alter the drug slightly just so they can update the patents and continue charging high prices. They're not making any real improvements.

Furthermore, the US does actually subsidize lower drug prices in other countries although not in the way you probably think. The US government funds much of the actual drug research. Drug companies are just leaching off the government but claim their high US prices are just to offset research cost they mostly don't do.

[-Nurot]

While Newsweek is down my list of reputable sources, two things I learned from this thread so far.

Citizens of other countries are against what is ultimately, legal immigration, to access services provided by said countries. If you were a US citizens with that view on hispanics (the overwhelming majority of which aren't coming legally), you would be crucified.

I think the hypocrisy comes in for that very reason. You know who and his supporters wanting to keep asylum seekers out combined with people not reading the article and thus not seeing it's primarily about insulin is inspiring ill will against Americans, in general, in this case. Kind of a, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, scenario.

Businesses having more than 10% profit margins are evil. I'll be completely honest and say I do see both sides to the argument, I detest almost everytime government tries forcing businesses to do anything. I don't know, if there even should be, a solution to something costing $1 to produce and businesses charging more than $10 though, even medications. :-/ While you can argue there will always be a market for the medication so it would be more a volume business, again I just detest almost everytime government tries meddling with business.

https://beyondtype1.org/how-much-doe...oduce-insulin/

With an active, competitive biosimilar market, this study estimated a reasonable price for analog insulins to be between $78-130 USD per person per year (except insulin Detemir, which was higher). Regular and NPH was even lower — between $48-72 USD per year. Yearly costs are based on an average dosage of 40 units per day (a World Health Organization statistic).

Now on average people are paying $1,200 a month. Detemer the most expensive to produce is about($283–$365 a year). On average people pay 14,400 a year for insulin. So the question isn't, the drug companies making 10%, but it becomes, even with an underestimate of profits, that they're seeing 3,942% in profits, for the absolutely most expensive, while people die from access to life saving medicines.

EDIT: The question I have is this. The insulin that costs $xxx in the US but a fraction of that in Canada (or other countries), is it the same company? Same type? Same delivery mechanism?

Yes. Part of the answer as to why is covered here if you want elaboration on the 8 reasons-

https://www.t1international.com/blog...-so-expensive/

8 Reasons Why Insulin is so Outrageously Expensive
1. Only 3 Companies Control 90% of the Global Insulin Market
2. No Generic Insulin
3. Pay-for-Delay Schemes & Lawsuits
4. Patents
5. Politics
6. Price Fixing
7. Pharma Marketing Schemes
8. Payment for Influence (or Silence)

If all of those are yes, I wouldn't be opposed to congress/senate holding hearing asking these drug manufacturer's why there is such a dramatic price difference for the exact same medication across countries. Of course it would be pointless as the answers wouldn't actually be provided but that would at least be a start to understanding why it's the case. At that point, it would almost seem like these companies use the US to subsidize low prices for other countries, because outside of that I can't see a valid reason. Unless there's things like much looser legal protections in the US, etc that these companies have to try offsetting potential losses.

Already done. The big 3 makers have almost matching prices here in the US. Their excuse? The one that made the most "sense" (None of the reasons did) was innovation. Something that in theory should drive prices down, is instead causing them to seek 3,942%+ in profits.

[Mehrunes]

South Park prophesied this.

[schwank05]

If you don't have a Canadian citizenship and don't carry a medical card, you shouldn't even be seen by a doctor or hospital unless it's an emergency and you are going to die. Fuck these leeches

It's Ok they will be stuck in a waiting room for a week before they maybe see a doctor, or get told to come back in 6 months for their treatments.

[alturic]

American drug companies usually just alter the drug slightly just so they can update the patents and continue charging high prices. They're not making any real improvements.

Furthermore, the US does actually subsidize lower drug prices in other countries although not in the way you probably think. The US government funds much of the actual drug research. Drug companies are just leaching off the government but claim their high US prices are just to offset research cost they mostly don't do.

The first comment, that's just patent protection? Unless you're saying they do this specifically for/in the US?

That's basically what I meant. Although (second link from Google), funding 1/3 of the research, for how big the industry is, isn't that dramatic. I still don't "get" the justification for charging US patients dramatically higher pricing. I mean, technically if it "cost" (regulation, testing, etc) $1 to get a drug to market in the US, and $0.25 to get the drug to market in another country, I can see that argument but I don't know if it's like that.

[Ivanstone]

The first comment, that's just patent protection? Unless you're saying they do this specifically for/in the US?

That's basically what I meant. Although (second link from Google), funding 1/3 of the research, for how big the industry is, isn't that dramatic. I still don't "get" the justification for charging US patients dramatically higher pricing. I mean, technically if it "cost" (regulation, testing, etc) $1 to get a drug to market in the US, and $0.25 to get the drug to market in another country, I can see that argument but I don't know if it's like that.

Its because they can get away with it. That's the only reason they need.

[Unholyground]

Guys, not all Americans are useless. I know a bunch of them and have a bunch of friends there that are just like us and are just tired of their Gov fucking them every chance they get.

[alturic]

Now on average people are paying $1,200 a month. Detemer the most expensive to produce is about($283–$365 a year). On average people pay 14,400 a year for insulin. So the question isn't, the drug companies making 10%, but it becomes, even with an underestimate of profits, that they're seeing 3,942% in profits, for the absolutely most expensive, while people die from access to life saving medicines.

8 Reasons Why Insulin is so Outrageously Expensive
1. Only 3 Companies Control 90% of the Global Insulin Market
2. No Generic Insulin
3. Pay-for-Delay Schemes & Lawsuits
4. Patents
5. Politics
6. Price Fixing
7. Pharma Marketing Schemes
8. Payment for Influence (or Silence)

Already done. The big 3 makers have almost matching prices here in the US. Their excuse? The one that made the most "sense" (None of the reasons did) was innovation. Something that in theory should drive prices down, is instead causing them to seek them to seek 3,942%+ in profits.

Where to start, and please don't take any of this as an attack, honest discussion...

Are you a capitalist, or socialist?
Is it the product (medication) that you find a problem a company making 3,942% profit margins?
Is it the almost guaranteed business that you find a problem with a company making 3,942% margins?

It's a slippery question for me. While I 100000% agree that morally charging absurd pricing for medication, the capitalist side of me also doesn't see anything wrong with it. While I can't make the argument to buy it elsewhere (in terms of business, not company) like you can normally make, I'd have to really think about whether government can and should step in to restrict pharma to, ultimately, how much money they can charge for their product(s). I think it's really because I know how bad government fucks up almost everything they get involved in.

As to the 8 reasons (yes, read article linked), number 1 just screams out to me. While it's a simple sentence, if insulin was so cheap to make that implies it's easy to make, if so, why hasn't someone else come up with it, and charged enough to make only 1,971% margin? Their sales would be through the roof, and with the cost (apparently cheap?) to make it so low, I can't even see the other companies being able to do anything to drive them out of business, outside of tanking the market to where the cost is more than the profit which seems unlikely.

Number 2 makes it sound like it's not as cheap as people/articles are saying it is to produce? Again, because of why my argument for number 1 hasn't happened. I would be ok with government stepping in and providing incentives for a company to go through the process of producing whateverthehell a "biosimilar" actually is.

Number 3, yay so a loose legal system is a reason, just not from the angle I mentioned.

Number 4, see 3, but I don't understand how you patent a formula to make "insulin", if that makes sense? "Humalog, Lantus and other previous generation insulins are now off patent" - is these are off patent, couldn't someone make an identical version? Not trying to pretend I understand chemistry/pharma, but yea.

Number 5, see my comment about getting rid of politicians voting on bills, and instead just introducing them and putting them through a large entropy random number generator. It sounds weird but fundamentally it's really no different than how politicians behave. Hell, perhaps do once a year elections that... *gasp* THE PEOPLE vote on things. Would be very cumbersome but at least both of those stop the politician profiteering.

Number 6, unsure how you can price-fix, when "Often only one of these companies supplies insulin in a country, which means they more or less hold a monopoly there and can set prices as they wish." unless that's what they meant, the big three conspired and agreed who would control what countries supply?

Yea, long-winded, and again not meant to be an attack on your points at all.

EDIT: I still don't get, regardless of how much it costs to bring an insulin medication to market, if you're able to make anywhere near 4,000, or even 3,000 or 2,000, 1,000% margins on that how a company hasn't done it. Again, don't mean to pretend I know chemistry/pharma, but is "insulin" itself a unique formula that, by way of patents, ensures no-one else can actually make it? I don't think so, but yea.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It's Ok they will be stuck in a waiting room for a week before they maybe see a doctor, or get told to come back in 6 months for their treatments.

You don’t need to see a doctor to buy insulin.

[alturic]

You don’t need to see a doctor to buy insulin.

So, why not just buy it online then? :-/ Unless it's not OTC, and you still need to actually buy it at a pharmacy?