1. #24541
    Dreadlord Paarthurnax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Agreed, I am a long way from a SJW, but GoT seems to have no idea how to write female characters without playing to the absolutely worst stereotypes, especially in season 8. They used to be much better at this, characters like Margery were pretty convincing female characters. Yeah she was manipulative, but she wasn't really an evil conniving bitch about it. She was just using the tools that were at her disposal to achieve her agenda, and it wasn't really a destructive effort.

    The remaining ones have all been done dirty by ham-fisted stereotypes in the last few episodes.

    Cersei: Always an evil schemer, but now she doesn't even have an agenda any more, just a pure force of evil that is not really different then the night king. She has no complexity left.
    Dany: Always emotional, but it a plausible and character driven way. Now she is just spiraling into paranoia and emotional outbursts. Which demonstrates why women are clearly not fit to rule, and we need a nice reliable man to take charge now.
    Sansa: You can either be naïve and good, or you can be a clever backstabbing monster. Apparently there is no middle ground here. Sansa now has chronic backstabbing disorder, and of course she explicitly acknowledges that she allowed everything that happened to her to completely define her. I personally think that line about rape is pretty in line with her character now, but that isn't a good thing. She thinks she has to be as bad as her enemies to win.
    Brienne: Holy shit. Really? They reduced her to a lovesick girl crying in her nightgown as Jamie rides away? What is the message here? That she was just an ugly girl overcompensating, and all she ever really needed was a good man to settle down with? 6 seasons of character development disappeared in one drinking session.
    Arya: If you are a woman, you can't balance your talents and personality with a fulfilling relationship. You are either a wife and mother or you are a soulless monster. This is the exact template that has been applied to every female character that is still alive over the last two seasons.

    This isn't about some sort of social justice, this is just about crappy writing that comes from an unabashedly male viewpoint. I don't think they are actually trying to make a statement, I think they just have no idea what to do with a female character. I guess in their defense, their male characters aren't really handled any better this season, all of them have been reduced to flat stereotypes.

    - - - Updated - - -


    That is my point though. She has always been this way, but she has been slowly losing control of it. I don't really have any issue with how it is progressing, I was just hoping that she turns it around instead of coasting all the way to the bottom. Because I would much prefer she turns it around and becomes the good ruler she clearly also has the capability to be. The coin could land on either edge, but I would prefer it winds up on the good side because Jon is just a boring character.
    I think at least from a book material perspective the underlying themes of the Game of Thrones books has always been something like:

    1) Feudalism is Bad
    2) War is Bad
    3) Religion is Confusing
    4) Feminism is Good

    Things are a mess now because D&D are bad writers and no longer have Martin to draw material from. Season 7 & 8 are playing out like poorly written fan fiction.

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  2. #24542
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paarthurnax View Post
    I think at least from a book material perspective the underlying themes of the Game of Thrones books has always been something like:

    1) Feudalism is Bad
    2) War is Bad
    3) Religion is Confusing
    4) Feminism is Good

    Things are a mess now because D&D are bad writers and no longer have Martin to draw material from. Season 7 & 8 are playing out like poorly written fan fiction.
    I honestly forgot you posted on here when I quoted Paarurnax earlier, lol. I should clarify I was quoting the dragon in Skyrim, not you.

    edit: but yeah, I agree with you on this. I personally hate the idea that the show seems to base everyone's fate on who their genetic parents are. Which is missing the point spectacularly hilariously.

  3. #24543
    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    ^ You do realise this is the Game of Thrones and the NK have and will always be just a side character to spin up the main story a bit? It's been shown as that for a long time. The Game of Thrones is the true story.
    That is debatable, since the beginning we've seen politics play the prominent role for the throne and rightly so but I do feel the story should of always been destined to face the reality where everyone is at war with one another but then they have to band together to withstand total extinction of all life.

    It would of been far greater to remove the NK as a presence entirely as it essentially lead to nothing despite having that ever growing ominous presence of something far more sinister at work than mere mortal men & women. All we really know about his motives is he wanted to kill the Three-Eyed-Raven because of the knowledge he possesses about life/past and wanted to wipe all life out as we know it, that is such a ridiculous plot and almost identical to that in which Thanos wanted to achieve in the MCU.

    For myself I read leaks/spoilers over a year ago which evidently for the most part were all true. The story of trying to sustain all life in Westeros is far more engaging than two women pulling at each others hair so for me GoT ended with the wall coming down and the army of the dead marching through.

    The writing has been terrible for a good few seasons now but it's really showing this final season.
    Last edited by AidanJLowe; 2019-05-08 at 06:23 PM.

  4. #24544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prokne View Post
    That is a possible take on it, but would still need some kind of explanation in the show. If the NK is winter, then he could have brought winter down south whenever he wanted. Why is he coming now?

    I always thought (from the show) that, like you said, he is bounded by where winter is. He can make it worse and has powers that cause wind and storms, but can't cause climate shifts.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm thinking that over those thousands of years, people have forgotten or changed the story of what happened so that the really don't know. The history of Westeros happens over several thousand years, more than the amount of time that writing has been around in our history. It's amazing that Westeros would know as much as they do about events that long ago and have it be completely accurate. That is what Bran is for. He went back to see the creation of the NK, but they should have also shown him go back and do some research on the first time there was winter and what happened. Like have him get some useful information about how to defeat the white walkers. Everything anyone knew about killing them came from Sam and Jon accidentally killing one. What use is Bran's knowledge of history (which the NK supposedly wants to destroy) if he never tells anyone anything?
    Its what all those episodes of Samwell in the Great Library were about - the answers WERE there - in OLD BOOKS. That NO ONE bothered to read anymore. So Sam stole the few he knew were helpful and fled. Because all the great Maestros weren't taking the metaphorical, literal, and wouldn't believe the threat - so they weren't putting anyone to go searching the books to find out what they use to know.

    You shouldn't really have to figure that out - the show pretty much explains it - directly. Yes, its been a really long time so everyone forgot what they knew (Wheel of Time...), but they do have books. But since everyone forgot the threat was even a real "thing" and not just a metaphorical prophecy - they think its a waste of their precious time to go pull up old books to find anything out. Sam - who knew better - had to sneak the information out just to find out about dragonglass and the source under DragonRock etc.etc.

    Now events have caught up to the present - assuming we even see what happens at the Big Library (sorry I suck at names so I can't remember what its called lol) in the next two episodes (probably not) - assuming another crow was sent after the Battle of WF and they believe that message that its real - then you'd see a whole bunch of old guys nose deep in age-old dusty tomes trying to catch up.

    ~
    As for Bran - has anyone besides me realized - no one ever *asks* him?

    To me it makes perfect sense why Bran isn't as more overtly helpful. Not just because no one really asks =D - but because he is now a part of the mythos (not human anymore), part of the demi-gods (for lack of a better term here), because he is now one of the Fingers of Fate - he wouldn't influence things overtly directly.

    He does his part - as he knows his part to be. His part is to influence the outcome where he can - where he's probably already been preordained to do so (since in this reality prophecy is a thing), but his part isn't to do more. He influenced the direction of several outcomes - to get where the "needed" to be for the possibility to win against the WW. But he's not a God - its not his job to ensure the survival of mankind or that Danny or Jon gets on the throne. The Demigods don't care about that. Bran is beyond the human cares of this generation - good or bad. He was there to try and help mankind survive and he did his part, as he was meant to. But not more than that - as that wasn't his purpose.

    Just like the guy who was raised from the dead 6 times to fulfill his destiny - his destiny was nothing more than to make sure Ayra stark didn't die in that hallway. If he hadn't have been there, then it all doesn't come together the way it 'has to' for mankind to win. You can have the perspective that it was "no big deal" but the fact is - with the reality of Westeros - it was a HUGE deal - because Ayra was the one to kill the NK. That was the way it "had" to happen (per whatever gods or prophecy dictated all this).

    Bran using his knowledge to tell everyone how to do everything right to "win" isn't Bran's purpose at all. It never has been and it never will be. That wasn't the role of his predecessor (guy stuck in tree) so it won't be his.

    But I find it amusing - no one ever really asks much. They look at him sideways and don't understand what he's become other than he's not the 8 year old kid they left behind - but no one really tries to understand. They asked about fighting the NK himself - and really that was Bran's entire purpose because BranDemiGod Doesn't care about who sits the Iron Throne. But there's been no long conversation between Bran and anyone else about any of the rest of it =D.

    *Shrugs* Bran makes sense to me. Him rising up and being the strategist that solves the whole thing - no. That was never fate's intent with Bran.
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  5. #24545
    Quote Originally Posted by Koriani View Post
    Meh I disagree- I'm actually expecting GRRM (if he finishes...lol) to make the White Walker battle the final battle - after the 7 Kingdoms fight; because it is the "fight for the actual world" (of men).

    "Winter is Coming" isn't just from the show. While there is no "King" persay, the WW are not any "minor" thing either. "Winter is Coming" has been from the first book. There is a bigger fight coming from beyond the Wall that doesn't care about who rules the 7 kingdoms.

    It just hasn't played a major part because nothing's arrived yet. The books haven't gotten (or just about) that far to even start the skirmishing. Danny hasn't landed in the 7 Kingdoms (yet).

    So the threat they may or may not be hasn't really been setup in the books - other than yes, guess what, WW are coming and the mortals are still thinking their fight is the fight that matters.

    I've always thought - both in the books and the show - the bigger battle is the battle most of the world has no idea is coming (yet in the books). Yes, mortals play at the Game of Thrones - but ultimately it doesn't matter who sits on the throne once "Winter" (Long Night II) gets here. (for the books)

    So while I may be disappointed in how the writers didn't do their OWN NK justice - that isn't to say WW aren't the (actual) major threat in the books. The books just haven't engaged that yet in near the way the show has.

    I'd be very disappointed if GRRM does the same thing the show does - and makes the King's Landing fight the climax battle and not the WW battle. Because at the end of all of the story and lore - the "bigger threat" is the one ending mankind. Not the one just putting a new one on the throne.

    *shrugs*

    Being a fan of the books doesn't mean you don't also want the writers (Of the show) to write their own creations (separate from the book or not) well - or give them the "teeth" they've (the writers) been building you up to expect.
    If the WW and night king and all were the main threat, why in both the books and show, are they only talked about in Westeros? If they were the actual major threat, there would be mentions/whispers/chapters in Slaver's Bay, Vas Dothraki, Bravos, etc.. all places visited.

    The story is basically about Westeros, which is the Iron Throne.
    Last edited by uopayroll; 2019-05-08 at 06:24 PM. Reason: typos

  6. #24546
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    Quote Originally Posted by uopayroll View Post
    If the WW and night king and all were the main threat, why in both the books and show, are they only talked about in Westeros? If they were the actual major threat, there would be mentions/whispers/chapters in Slaver's Bay, Vas Dothraki, Bravos, etc.. all places visited.

    The story is basically about Westeros, which is the Iron Throne.
    The books do cover y. . . . wait, have you ever even read the books?

  7. #24547
    The point of the White Walkers in the story line is not supposed to be that of a side distraction that the characters have to spend 4 episodes on solving.
    its showing that the Game of Thrones, all that plotting and scheming is pointless and counter productive because literal Death is coming.
    None of your petty concerns matter, the end of the world is coming, not 'hold on, I gotta go do a thing. I'll be right back'.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  8. #24548
    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    ^ You do realise this is the Game of Thrones and the NK have and will always be just a side character to spin up the main story a bit? It's been shown as that for a long time. The Game of Thrones is the true story.
    I disagree.

    Yes while the name of the show is called Game of Thrones and most of the story has been primarily who wins the Iron Throne the real threat was always the Night King.

    On the surface it seemed like the Iron Throne was the end all be all but under the surface we as the reader/watcher and the Nights Watch knew that the Iron Throne, kings, queens, lords and everything else was irrelevant because they Night King didn't care about that. That is why Jon went beyond the Wall to capture a wight. It is why they had a meeting at the Dragonpit. Jon was trying to explain to them the whoever wins the Iron Throne means nothing in comparison to the threat the Night King posed...and he lost...in his first major battle.

    I believe that the White Walkers and the Night King were always the main central threat and the naivety of the lords of Westeros was the saving grace for the Night King. Even the Nights Watch was very naive and ignorant for having so much resistance toward the Wildlings crossing the wall. They knew White Walkers were out there and they knew the Wildlings would only make them stronger but still they were ignorant either way.

    I am going to watch the remaining episodes but just to see how it ends up. With that being said they most certainly dropped the ball on season 7 and season 8 and it is most likely because 4-6 episode seasons for Game of Thrones simply is nowhere near the amount of time they need to tell a quality story.
    Last edited by Byuiso; 2019-05-08 at 07:16 PM.

  9. #24549
    Quote Originally Posted by Byuiso View Post
    I disagree.

    Yes while the name of the show is called Game of Thrones and most of the story has been primarily who wins the Iron Throne the real threat was always the Night King.

    On the surface it seemed like the Iron Throne was the end all be all but under the surface we as the reader/watcher and the Nights Watch knew that the Iron Throne, kings, queens, lords and everything else was irrelevant because they Night King didn't care about that. That is why Jon went beyond the Wall to capture a wight. It is why they had a meeting at the Dragonpit. Jon was trying to explain to them the whoever wins the Iron Throne means nothing in comparison to the threat the Night King posed...and he lost...in his first major battle.

    I believe that the White Walkers and the Night King were always the main central threat and the naivety of the lords of Westeros was the saving grace for the Night King.

    I am going to watch the remaining episodes but just to see how it ends up. With that being said they most certainly dropped the ball on season 7 and season 8 and it is most likely because 4-6 episode seasons for Game of Thrones simply is nowhere near the amount of time they need to tell a quality story.
    Second battle, the Wall kinda does count
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  10. #24550
    I wonder if the last two books will be influenced by the fact that there's more shows coming. That'd suck.

  11. #24551
    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    ^ You do realise this is the Game of Thrones and the NK have and will always be just a side character to spin up the main story a bit? It's been shown as that for a long time. The Game of Thrones is the true story.
    Yeh, no idea what show you've been watching. As recently as S7 we were heavily reminded that the WW/NK were the "Only war that matters".
    But they got us, eXpeCtaTIonS sUbVErtEd!
    READ and be less Ignorant.

  12. #24552
    Quote Originally Posted by IIamaKing View Post
    eXpeCtaTIonS sUbVErtEd!
    You think you want it, but you really dont! tehe

    wonder if rian johnson directed any of these eps, jk jk.

  13. #24553
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Weird, because history is absolutely loaded with women that did exactly that. Most of them did it more like Margery, they were never the historical headliner, but they were the power behind the throne. Look at Jackie Kennedy for a perfect example.
    Ok both you and @escathological are wrong. Being competitive means that you plot and scheme all day, brewing strategies and ways to overcome your opponents, when they know you're coming, when they don't, and to protect yourself from what you can know it's coming and from what you don't. Being a good mom means that your whole day revolves around the well-being of your children, from waking up before they do to making great food, from having the energy to encourage them and smile to having the energy to answer their every stupid question without making them feel stupid, from having an overall positive energy to sharing it with the whole family. THEY ARE FUCKING POLAR OPPOSITES.

    Also you cannot compare a modern woman to a medieval ruler. Modern moms can just bribe their children into appearing like they are good moms. Fucking Jackie Kennedy was a badass player on the world stage and probably more than 60% of what's out there about her is fake news.

    Anyways, with these SJW older kids spamming everyone and everything about this malformed concept of femininity, it's no wonder that many people don't understand what a truly good mom represents and people think that being a lot of things on a superficial level equals a healthy lifestyle... Being a "Jack of all trades" makes you popular, but deep down you're a master of nothing, and many acomplishments are superficial and only enhanced by the way you frame it in a facebook picture.
    Last edited by Cannibalus; 2019-05-08 at 09:06 PM.

  14. #24554
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    They literally had to have Cersei get pregnant again to justify her trope-y "motherly madness" where she does all the evil shit she does to "protect her children" like Tyrion said this past week.
    For all we know - she's lying!

    She told her brother she was pregnant with his baby - and it wasn't but days after she had sex with her brother. (She wouldn't know...)
    She told Peeon she's pregnant with HIS baby.

    She's always done evil shit - in protection of children yes, but she didn't have to be actively pregnant to do any of it. I am still expecting her pregnancy to be a lie (at this point - after the war if you survive you can get pregnant all the the time). There's no madness here. That's not what the book, or the show, has built on. She's not "mad" as in crazy. She's Mad as in Angry. What she does is very deliberate.

    And its made more so in internal musings from the book - being a Mother and her Father's Daughter- ARE the big two motivators of all her decisions. Its not "madness." That's implying she's out of control. And that's something she's *never* been. She knows exactly what steps she's taken, and what she's doing and where she's headed. And why.

    She was the first born of her Father - and she is the only one of his children to actually fulfill that role in the way her Father wanted it. Something Jamie was never able to do.

    Course I call bullshit on Danny "madness." No, she's not crazy. None of this is crazy. She may be "angry" mad, but she's not "mad king" mad. She's been angry for awhile now. She wanted to tear down the tower and burn King's Landing from her original strategy.

    Its not her fault that plan is actually the best one they've ever had, but her advisors - who have personal stake in KL and the 7 Kingdoms- are the ones who have *always* told her not to do that. When honestly, if she had done that the moment she arrived - like she wanted - the series would have already been over =D.

    But no neither are "crazy" nor are either going crazy. They're just being pushed (as they perceive it) to extremes. If Danny gets pissed enough she'll raze that damn tower, sure. (We can all hope...LOL) But that won't mean she went "crazy." That's a copout. Even if the bad writing wants to try and say that (and that's not what I get at all), doesn't mean I buy into it.

    This isn't how "crazy" acts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    [QUOTE=Cannibalus;51167421You cannot be aggressive, competitive and a good mother at the same time. They are polar opposite states.[/QUOTE]

    No they aren't. What nonsense.

    You can be aggressive and competitive and still be a good mother - to your children. No, Cersei doesn't, but that doesn't make it biologically impossible for all women. What nonsense.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ohiostate124 View Post
    I wonder if anything is ever going to come of Dany possibly getting pregnant. Seems like that’s another thing that’s going to be forgotten for the sake of subverted expectations.
    In the next two episodes - no, I don't see it being mentioned.

    In the books - entirely possible - assuming it was ever possible at all.

    Even as Dany believes the witch's prophecy means she can't ever have children - if you read the 'prophecy' a certain way then it (to me) becomes more obvious that she can have children - but only by Jon Snow. He's the one that fulfills the ruleset given in the prophecy. Now whether that's actually how it "should" be interpreted - only GRRM may answer that.

    But no in the show - unless parts of the last episode are FF in time or something - I don't expect that they'd be covering this in what's left. They've always just let it go at the prophecy and Dany telling everyone she can't have children anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cannibalus View Post
    Ok both you and @escathological are wrong. Being competitive means that you plot and scheme all day, brewing strategies and ways to overcome your opponents, when they know you're coming, when they don't, and to protect yourself from what you can know it's coming and from what you don't. Being a good mom means that your whole day revolves around the well-being of your children, from waking up before they do to making great food, from having the energy to encourage them and smile to having the energy to answer their every stupid question without making them feel stupid, from having an overall positive energy to sharing it with the whole family. THEY ARE FUCKING POLAR OPPOSITES.

    Also you cannot compare a modern woman to a medieval ruler. Modern moms can just bribe their children into appearing like they are good moms. Fucking Jackie Kennedy was a badass player on the world stage and probably more than 60% of what's out there about her is fake news.

    Anyways, with these SJW older kids spamming everyone and everything about this malformed concept of femininity, it's no wonder that many people don't understand what a truly good mom represents and people think that being a lot of things on a superficial level equals a healthy lifestyle... Being a "Jack of all trades" makes you popular, but deep down you're a master of nothing, and many acomplishments are superficial and only enhanced by the way you frame it in a facebook picture.
    To try and breakdown all wrong with your statements would be a thread in and of itself.

    So I ain't gonna try. Have fun with your mindset.

    I hope this thread doesn't get further derailed by others trying to argue with you. =D The people going back and forth with "no you're insulting me - no you are" is enough of a derail... lol.
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  15. #24555
    Quote Originally Posted by Cannibalus View Post
    Ok both you and @escathological are wrong. Being competitive means that you plot and scheme all day, brewing strategies and ways to overcome your opponents, when they know you're coming, when they don't, and to protect yourself from what you can know it's coming and from what you don't. Being a good mom means that your whole day revolves around the well-being of your children, from waking up before they do to making great food, from having the energy to encourage them and smile to having the energy to answer their every stupid question without making them feel stupid, from having an overall positive energy to sharing it with the whole family. THEY ARE FUCKING POLAR OPPOSITES.

    Also you cannot compare a modern woman to a medieval ruler. Modern moms can just bribe their children into appearing like they are good moms. Fucking Jackie Kennedy was a badass player on the world stage and probably more than 60% of what's out there about her is fake news.

    Anyways, with these SJW older kids spamming everyone and everything about this malformed concept of femininity, it's no wonder that many people don't understand what a truly good mom represents and people think that being a lot of things on a superficial level equals a healthy lifestyle... Being a "Jack of all trades" makes you popular, but deep down you're a master of nothing, and many acomplishments are superficial and only enhanced by the way you frame it in a facebook picture.
    You do realize that a Queen in a medieval setting isn't a 50's housewife, right? Your entire argument relies on the assumption that she educates and (lulz) cooks for her own children. Do you also believe Cercei ever did Joffrey's laundry herself or something?

    No, nothing in-universe stops a queen from being a mother and also a ruthless schemer. The book has examples of such, so does the setting's background (Cercei ain't got nothing on Rhaenyra). That the show made Cercei a one-dimensional evil villain is on them and them alone.

  16. #24556
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    Forgive me if this has been raised before, but am I the only one seeing BIG similarities between Jaime Lannister and Luke Skywalker?

    - Both are knights
    - Both are expert swordsmen considered the best of the best
    - Both lost a hand (their right)
    - Both have twin sisters (who are both royals - princess/queen. Both are/were in love with them - in Luke's case he stopped when he discovered his sister was his sister [not 100% sure on this])

    Particularly in the recent films/season 8 of GoT

    - Both have grey beards/are more unkempt than before
    - Both wear cloaks/hoods (was especially obvious in the recent episode 5 trailer when Jaime walks away through the Golden Company soldiers)
    - Both became dissulusioned with their previous life

    So the last one is a bit of a stretch, but the others seem pretty strong! I'm not a huge SW person so I may have got a few facts a little wrong. Feel free to correct me or add to the above if there are more similarities!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by IIamaKing View Post
    Its VeeP, lol. Not even a major plot point, no fucks given. Report the comment if you want.
    What a lovely chap you are. /s

  17. #24557
    @Koriani

    I agree that this discussion needs to end, this is a GoT thread not a psychology thread. Also it's kind of stupid to relate characters in a book to natural humans as the characters can only do what they are written to do and it's all in the hand of the writer.

    A good read i'm recommending:

    https://books.google.ro/books?id=I40...mother&f=false

    Peace out

  18. #24558
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelyn View Post
    What a lovely chap you are. /s
    Seriously, its like complaining about spoilers for Big Bang Theory. Who actually fucking cares?
    READ and be less Ignorant.

  19. #24559
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    Quote Originally Posted by IIamaKing View Post
    Seriously, its like complaining about spoilers for Big Bang Theory. Who actually fucking cares?
    Just be considerate of others is all I'm asking, it isn't a huge ask - although I appreciate this is the internet, so it probably seems like it is.

  20. #24560
    I will make a general observation about the Night King. As we have seen in World of Warcraft with the resident ''necromancers who hate the living'', whatever are their virtues for gameplay, Undead are very good as something akin to a locust swarm or a tsunami. They are very good for revealing the flaws of their human victims, they are extremely poor as objets of drama.

    GOT is a feudal setting, with backstabbing and copious sex. While for the second, I don't put it above Ramsay Bolton, those don't really work for Undead hordes (they work as an external threat for the feudal society)

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