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  1. #21
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    No I totally get how you can feel so threatened by any post that does not coincide with your own personal opinion that you would need to berate and cast doubt on my credibility.

    And Byne, I wasn't talking about him saving Baine, which makes no sense either if I were to compare Sylvanas' contribution to the Belfs and the Horde with Baine's.

    What I was pointing towards is why would Lor'themar side with someone who has time and again proven hostile against his faction and his race specifically over someone who has helped them in the past more often than not.
    Are you really that lost on the plot?

    Lor'themar values the horde and it's survival matters to him. He clearly she's the obvious fact that sylvanas is an internal threat, if she came for Baine, how long before she came for him and his people?

    And despite the obvious threat of war from the alliance, he unlike sylvanas understands diplomacy, if he can perform an action that creates a less hostile interaction with the enemy faction, it opens the door for diplomacy with them, and ending a war.

    This is what a good leader does, if you can put aside your silly bias and think from a character perspective for a moment, you might understand why all these characters, saurfang, Baine, lor'themar, the others who are yet to side with them, are doing so.

    This 'he's a traitor's boll*cks only comes from people to held on character fanaticism with the very obviously evil character here.
    #boycottchina

  2. #22
    Lor'themar Theron says: Sylvanas! You will leave our corpses alone, or I will deal with you here and now.
    Lor'themar already said this in the Siege of Orgrimmar and Sylvanas did it in Lordaeron.

    There is nothing left of the former Ranger-General of Silvermoon and Lor'themar hesitated a long time but finally accepted it.

  3. #23
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Traitors? Technically, yes, at least to Sylvanas regime and her loyalists. Scumbags? I don't think so, no. Lor'themar has decided to oppose Sylvanas and Baine is simply the lightning rod that is igniting a schism that's been present for some time. Lor'themar doesn't agree with Sylvanas' war and no longer wishes to fight it - a position he now shares with several other leaders and high-placed individuals in the Horde. You can agree or disagree with that, but I don't think it makes him or the Blood Elves as a whole "scumbags."
    A faction leader seeing the internal threat as something worse then the external one, and takes action accordingly
    #boycottchina

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Lor'themar betraying sylvanas is absolutely within character, the problem is his motivation which is entirely out of character, Baine is the heart of the horde hur dur is not something Lor'themar usually bases his decisions on and it shows.
    What do you mean? Looks like classic Lor'themar to me. It's not like he tried to bail on the Horde because Aethas and Rommath did not die during research they knew upfront was going to be dangerous. Lor'themar is Horde patriot number one. At least after Purge of Dalaran convinced him Blood Elves have no place in the Alliance in the end. Which is why... We kill Sunreavers that are angry about Purge of Dalaran... While on a mission from him?

    Whatever, the point is he's a true Horde patriot. That just broke the fundamental law of the Horde. To help free the guy who even according to his own views on that law of the Horde deserved the death penalty for his literal treason. With whom he never really exchanged a word. And with whom he even shared the same room on maybe five occasions in his life. Because Baine truly does represent what the Horde is all about. I.e. betraying the Horde and aiding the Alliance instead. Because it turns out the Horde (at least the "golden standard" of Thrall's Horde) has been schizophrenic all this time!
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2019-05-08 at 08:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  5. #25
    Blood Elf betrayal? Elves being mercurial and self-interested? /pikachuface

    You're telling me the same group that betrayed the Alliance to join their mortal enemies, then betrayed the Kirin Tor and helped Garrosh get his hands on an artifact for murderous purposes betrayed someone!?

    Last edited by Stelio Kontos; 2019-05-08 at 08:26 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    He probably picked to side with the enemy from yesterday over the enemy of tomorrow. He knows exactly that, as it stands now, the Horde is looking at a civil war, and he decides to side with the side that he feels more comfortable with, eg not the one with the genocidal maniac.
    This is circular logic. Sylvanas wouldn't be the enemy of tomorrow for him in the potential civil war if he didn't side against her right now. You can't justify siding against her in a civil war with her being the enemy in that potential civil war as this very choice determines that status of Sylvanas in said war in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  7. #27
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    Just Lor'themar so far. He's not sure if the rest of his people will follow him.

    Hopefully the Blood Elves will get a new leader soon.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    Is there a reason why he wants to free Baine? We are talking about Baine, a traitor siding with the alliance while a giant war against the alliance is happening.
    Because betraying the Horde and siding with the Alliance instead represents the best parts of the Horde, duh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    What do you mean? Looks like classic Lor'themar to me. It's not like he tried to bail on the Horde because Aethas and Rommath did not die during research they knew upfront was going to be dangerous. Lor'themar is Horde patriot number one. At least after Purge of Dalaran convinced him Blood Elves have no place in the Alliance in the end. Which is why... We kill Sunreavers that are angry about Purge of Dalaran... While on a mission from him?

    Whatever, the point is he's a true Horde patriot. That just broke the fundamental law of the Horde. To help free the guy who even as per his own views on that law of the Horde deserved the death penalty. With whom he never really exchanged a word. And with whom he even shared the same room on maybe five occasions in his life. Because Baine truly does represent what the Horde is all about. I.e. betraying the Horde and aiding the Alliance instead. Because it turns out the Horde (at least the "golden standard" of Thrall's Horde) has been schizophrenic all this time!
    It's not even that I expect him to uphold the Horde values, whatever those might be. I don't even expect anything from his character past self preservation.

    That being said, why the hell is he siding with someone who has tried to sabotage and outright kill his people?

    And to be honest I'm getting really tired of people saying that Sylvanas is the "worse" enemy. From the belf perspective, based on the past story, the Belfs have the LEAST reason to side with the Alliance and even less Proudmoore and MOST reasons to side with the Forsaken specifically.

  10. #30
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The problem is once again motivation, Baine being the catalyst for Lor'themar to act is strange to say the least, it is almost as bad as Baine himself being so worked up over derek, despite the fact there are far more pressing concerns involved. Heck Lor'themar's original text was better then the stuff they currently have and I can only hope they change it again.
    I don't really see an issue with motivation here. Lor'themar's reaction to Baine's arrest was decidedly negative, but he took the political stance in the end to dance between action and inaction. Over time he's decided where his true loyalties lie, and has chosen to act. One might agree or disagree with his ultimate stance, of course, but I don't find it badly reasoned or coming from nowhere, as it were. Baine himself has pretty much opposed Sylvanas from day one of her reign (and well before that to a lesser degree), so him finding fault in almost everything she does isn't outlandish either.

    That being said PTR's are rife for iteration, so the verbiage will probably change a few times as we go forward.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't really see an issue with motivation here. Lor'themar's reaction to Baine's arrest was decidedly negative, but he took the political stance in the end to dance between action and inaction. Over time he's decided where his true loyalties lie, and has chosen to act. One might agree or disagree with his ultimate stance, of course, but I don't find it badly reasoned or coming from nowhere, as it were. Baine himself has pretty much opposed Sylvanas from day one of her reign (and well before that to a lesser degree), so him finding fault in almost everything she does isn't outlandish either.
    Lor'themar's first line was fine and was appropriate motivation.

    His new line is execrable and contradictory considering Lor'themar himself observed how Baine's actions put his own people at risk and how Lor'themar, despite finding his heart to be in the right place, would prefer to tread carefully. Framing it as Bob being shocked that Baine would be executed for treason and making an emotional decision to save him is simply out of character and poor, given that even the deaths of his own people back in the day had him act subtly and methodically to defect to the Alliance or later to build a powerbase to use against Garrosh.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Traitors? Technically, yes, at least to Sylvanas regime and her loyalists. Scumbags? I don't think so, no. Lor'themar has decided to oppose Sylvanas and Baine is simply the lightning rod that is igniting a schism that's been present for some time. Lor'themar doesn't agree with Sylvanas' war and no longer wishes to fight it - a position he now shares with several other leaders and high-placed individuals in the Horde. You can agree or disagree with that, but I don't think it makes him or the Blood Elves as a whole "scumbags."
    The mental gymnastics people are engaging in to justify Baine and his lot are getting really sad. It's not "technically" and it's not "at least against Sylvanas' regime" as there is no other regime in the Horde and Sylvanas is the person they swore an oath to. Meaning that the people who are not only acting against the Warchief of the Horde (you know, the "regime" Lor'themar is a member of) but are aiding other traitors and are working with the Alliance - currently in the state of total war against their actual faction - to achieve their goals are literal traitors. Because that's what treason goddamn entails.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  13. #33
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Just Lor'themar so far. He's not sure if the rest of his people will follow him.

    Hopefully the Blood Elves will get a new leader soon.
    He's a leader who values his people enough to turn against those who would be a greater threat to them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The mental gymnastics people are engaging in to justify Baine and his lot are getting really sad. It's not "technically" and it's not "at least against Sylvanas' regime" as there is no other regime in the Horde and Sylvanas is the person they swore an oath to. Meaning that the people who are not only acting against the Warchief of the Horde (you know, the "regime" Lor'themar is a member of) but are aiding other traitors and are working with the Alliance - currently in the state of total war against their actual faction - to achieve their goals are literal traitors. Because that's what treason goddamn entails.
    Baine and his lot? What, you mean the rest of the horde?

    Theres no mental gymnastics needed for that padre, because the games writers are making that so.
    #boycottchina

  14. #34

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Baine and his lot? What, you mean the rest of the horde?

    Theres no mental gymnastics needed for that padre, because the games writers are making that so.
    Bob himself says that most of the Horde is loyal to Sylvanas. Unless they're all clairvoyants who know everyone will change their mind in 8.2.5.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The problem is once again motivation, Baine being the catalyst for Lor'themar to act is strange to say the least, it is almost as bad as Baine himself being so worked up over derek, despite the fact there are far more pressing concerns involved. Heck Lor'themar's original text was better then the stuff they currently have and I can only hope they change it again.
    What concerns could be possibly more pressing than a member of the Proudmoore family being in peril? Well, other than a member of the Wrynn family being in peril, but that goes without saying (plus the only one member of that family left is Anduin and he has his magical bones of awesome to protect him). The Proudmoore family is obviously sacred to any true member of the Horde that obeys the golden standard values set by Saint Go'el. So Baine, being a person who has a romantic take on patriotism towards the Horde, was rightfully shaken to the core when a Proudmoore was not only worshiped, but outright mistreated.

    Also, what was Lor'themar's original text? I don't even remember it already (probably because of how right his celebration of Baine's principles of treason and Alliancy sycophancy feels to me).
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  17. #37
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The mental gymnastics people are engaging in to justify Baine and his lot are getting really sad. It's not "technically" and it's not "at least against Sylvanas' regime" as there is no other regime in the Horde and Sylvanas is the person they swore an oath to. Meaning that the people who are not only acting against the Warchief of the Horde (you know, the "regime" Lor'themar is a member of) but are aiding other traitors and are working with the Alliance - currently in the state of total war against their actual faction - to achieve their goals are literal traitors. Because that's what treason goddamn entails.
    Saying that I am attempting to "justify" Baine is a strawman on your part - I'm not saying his actions are just, or right, or even correct; I'm just explaining what they *are* in this context. And since we're going the route of an insurrection within the Horde, you're going to have to accept that from the perspective of her detractors there is a distinction between betraying the Horde and betraying Sylvanas. As I said, you can agree or disagree - but there's no objective truth to be had here, no canon statement that externally says "oh yes, Baine/Lor'themar/Thrall/Saurfang are all betraying the Horde." It comes down to where your personal loyalties lie, and how you view the matter. I'm not making that claim either way, as it is, only explaining how the characters are acting from their own stated perspectives.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  18. #38
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Lor'themar betraying sylvanas is absolutely within character, the problem is his motivation which is entirely out of character, Baine is the heart of the horde hur dur is not something Lor'themar usually bases his decisions on and it shows.
    Maybe he was already contaminated with potential like rest of horde leadership ?

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    He's a leader who values his people enough to turn against those who would be a greater threat to them.
    Which would be the Alliance based on the past.

    But hey, teaming up the the guy who tried to kill and/or destroy you to kill the guy who helped you in the past is fine, cause I hate Sylvanas.

  20. #40
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Lor'themar's first line was fine and was appropriate motivation.

    His new line is execrable and contradictory considering Lor'themar himself observed how Baine's actions put his own people at risk and how Lor'themar, despite finding his heart to be in the right place, would prefer to tread carefully. Framing it as Bob being shocked that Baine would be executed for treason and making an emotional decision to save him is simply out of character and poor, given that even the deaths of his own people back in the day had him act subtly and methodically to defect to the Alliance or later to build a powerbase to use against Garrosh.
    I think it is supposed to be a form of poetic irony on Lor'themar's part - as he is, in effect, making the same kind of decision Baine did. He's acting in accordance with what this morals tell him, not knowing if his own people will agree or back him (and thus putting them in the same danger he worried Baine had done for the Tauren). I like that comparison from a narrative standpoint.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

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