Belfs turned into traitors and scumbags

[Super Dickmann]

Are you following the game as i am? Sylvanas was "fearing" the alliance would use azerite for machinery and later destroy undercity or silvermoon city with it so she strucks by launching a campaign to capture the world tree, which Alliance was using to funnel azerite. Then Sylvanas not only did this as she completely burnt teldrassil down and in that day, Saurfang said, ok this is being too much now Sylvanas, this has no honor. Where is Saurfang having this on his plans all along and that sylvanas has "little" involvement???

Sylvanas prompted the idea of war to Saurfang and he rejected her initial arguments. He convinced himself later by remembering Genn's attempt to kill Sylvanas and his attack on the Horde fleet in Stormheim. He often reflects in his internal narration about how happy he is to be going to war.

He is in this regard actually a moderate as no sooner has he announced to the army he's leading that expected to be staying in Silithus that they'll be conquering night elf lands that they start cheering and love it. The average Horde member is pro-war and pro-Sylvanas even as of 8.2. It's in 5.3 8.2.5 that this might change as Varian Jaina mentions waiting for Vol'jin Saurfang's rebellion to take root.

[Mehrunes]

Are you following the game as i am? Sylvanas was "fearing" the alliance would use azerite for machinery and later destroy undercity or silvermoon city with it so she strucks by launching a campaign to capture the world tree, which Alliance was using to funnel azerite. Then Sylvanas not only did this as she completely burnt teldrassil down and in that day, Saurfang said, ok this is being too much now Sylvanas, this has no honor. Where is Saurfang having this on his plans all along and that sylvanas has "little" involvement???

That doesn't change the fact Saurfang planned the War of Thorns. Which is explicitly stated in A Good War.

He is in this regard actually a moderate as no sooner has he announced to the army he's leading that expected to be staying in Silithus that they'll be conquering night elf lands that they start cheering and love it. The average Horde member is pro-war and pro-Sylvanas even as of 8.2. It's in 5.3 8.2.5 that this might change as Varian Jaina mentions waiting for Vol'jin Saurfang's rebellion to take root.

I'm not sure why it's going to be Saurfang's rebellion tbh. Baine's rebellion sounds so much better. He's the heart of the Horde after all.

[Super Dickmann]

I'm not sure why it's going to be Saurfang's rebellion tbh. Baine's rebellion sounds so much better. He's the heart of the Horde after all.

The heart of the Horde is humble and he allows lesser men to take the front so they don't feel too bad about themselves. Don't worry, Baine will bring Sylvanas to justice for killing his father after Garrosh got away with it.

[Shakana]

Sylvanas prompted the idea of war to Saurfang and he rejected her initial arguments. He convinced himself later by remembering Genn's attempt to kill Sylvanas and his attack on the Horde fleet in Stormheim. He often reflects in his internal narration about how happy he is to be going to war.

He is in this regard actually a moderate as no sooner has he announced to the army he's leading that expected to be staying in Silithus that they'll be conquering night elf lands that they start cheering and love it. The average Horde member is pro-war and pro-Sylvanas even as of 8.2. It's in 5.3 8.2.5 that this might change as Varian Jaina mentions waiting for Vol'jin Saurfang's rebellion to take root.

Wars that Saurfang has no problem if it has honor and not purely evil, against life. His son died to evil. You can't think he is going to approve this.

[Super Dickmann]

Wars that Saurfang has no problem if it has honor and not purely evil, against life.

Saurfang doesn't take issue on the basis of Sylvanas' waging war on an abstract concept. In fact, no one does as no one is aware of it in-story. He takes issue because she just torched a city full of civvies and kids. The rest of the Horde in general either don't know or don't consider this a big deal as he does.

[Shakana]

Saurfang doesn't take issue on the basis of Sylvanas' waging war on an abstract concept. In fact, no one does as no one is aware of it in-story. He takes issue because she just torched a city full of civvies and kids. The rest of the Horde in general either don't know or don't consider this a big deal as he does.

The horde people are not stupid and they are just afraid of Sylvanas.

[Aucald]

Yep and because of this, she ends up having "traitors" and a rebellion. Instead of supporters because more and more people question her attitude and the killing she is doing has no big reason to justify besides "she is after something and don't tell us" or "she is destroying everything to have power, destroy hope and honor" while major concerns about azeroth have started. If azeroth wakes up who knows what may happen.

Even the actual basis of the war, the events in Stormheim, are themselves clouded with elements that would prompt more questions than answers if they were pried into. Sylvanas' goal there, and Genn's opposition, were wrapped up in a secret plot that Sylvanas seems loathe to make public knowledge - namely her attempt to suborn Eyir and gain control of more Val'kyr. This despite that Genn's presence there originally had nothing to do with that - he was there and hostile due to the Broken Shore and the death of Varian, on a mission of vengeance. But Sylvanas' own clandestine goings-on make it difficult for her to use that as a casus belli, she's forced to talk around it with Saurfang and let him try to convince himself of the necessity of war. This doesn't last very long, either; as Saurfang is decidedly hostile before the Darkshore campaign can even close (on one of the lowest notes imaginable as it were).

Without a clear platform, Sylvanas doesn't have a strong pillar of support. Fortunately (for her) she doesn't really need one in the short-term - the longer the war continues the more powerful her base becomes as she gains Dark Rangers, Dark Wardens, and more Forsaken for her ranks. I would argue she's not banking on the long-term support of the Horde, but more the massive short-term gains the furtherance of the war provides her.

[Mehrunes]

Saurfang doesn't take issue on the basis of Sylvanas' waging war on an abstract concept. In fact, no one does as no one is aware of it in-story. He takes issue because she just torched a city full of civvies and kids. The rest of the Horde in general either don't know or don't consider this a big deal as he does.

And even then, he still agreed with her argumentation for torching Teldrassil.

The horde people are not stupid and they are just afraid of Sylvanas.

Is the Horde not being stupid supposed to disprove that no one knows that Sylvanas is waging war against abstract concepts, or...?

[Super Dickmann]

The horde people are not stupid and they are just afraid of Sylvanas.

No, they explicitly aren't. Sylvanas doesn't threaten them at gun point to take slaves, eat people's souls, spear farmers' on the walls with pikes or cheer for the war every step of the way, they do it on their own. Again, 8.2 states explicitly what they've shown for a long while now - that Sylvanas operates with the popularity and support of the masses.

The Horde wants war with the Alliance and they're fine with how Sylvanas is waging it. Her publicly known actions up to this point aren't enough to turn anyone but the dickless racial leaders against her. The revelation of her being an old god puppet is what will change their minds.

[Mehrunes]

Even the actual basis of the war, the events in Stormheim, are themselves clouded with elements that would prompt more questions than answers if they were pried into. Sylvanas' goal there, and Genn's opposition, were wrapped up in a secret plot that Sylvanas seems loathe to make public knowledge - namely her attempt to suborn Eyir and gain control of more Val'kyr. This despite that Genn's presence there originally had nothing to do with that - he was there and hostile due to the Broken Shore and the death of Varian, on a mission of vengeance. But Sylvanas' own clandestine goings-on make it difficult for her to use that as a casus belli, she's forced to talk around it with Saurfang and let him try to convince himself of the necessity of war. This doesn't last very long, either; as Saurfang is decidedly hostile before the Darkshore campaign can even close (on one of the lowest notes imaginable as it were).

The is no "Genn's opposition" as he wasn't opposing anything Sylvanas was doing in Stormheim when he attacked her because he outright didn't know anything about her plans to begin with. He attacked her just because of his raging hatred for her. And Sylvanas' goal was wrapped in so much secrecy that the Desolate Council learned about it despite being formed by mostly laborers and merchants and not spies. Not to mention the Horde PC helping her out.

[Shakana]

Even the actual basis of the war, the events in Stormheim, are themselves clouded with elements that would prompt more questions than answers if they were pried into. Sylvanas' goal there, and Genn's opposition, were wrapped up in a secret plot that Sylvanas seems loathe to make public knowledge - namely her attempt to suborn Eyir and gain control of more Val'kyr. This despite that Genn's presence there originally had nothing to do with that - he was there and hostile due to the Broken Shore and the death of Varian, on a mission of vengeance. But Sylvanas' own clandestine goings-on make it difficult for her to use that as a casus belli, she's forced to talk around it with Saurfang and let him try to convince himself of the necessity of war. This doesn't last very long, either; as Saurfang is decidedly hostile before the Darkshore campaign can even close (on one of the lowest notes imaginable as it were).

Without a clear platform, Sylvanas doesn't have a strong pillar of support. Fortunately (for her) she doesn't really need one in the short-term - the longer the war continues the more powerful her base becomes as she gains Dark Rangers, Dark Wardens, and more Forsaken for her ranks. I would argue she's not banking on the long-term support of the Horde, but more the massive short-term gains the furtherance of the war provides her.

Saurfang may have been brainwashed for Darkshore campaign but he didn't accept being more brainwashed after he saw the tree burning tree, he understood it's not a place for him and this is not a war he wants to fight. It's not hard to understand this. What Lor'themar truly thinks of Sylvanas is that she was their protector as to of now he thinks she is doing stuff for her personal goals, as Saurfang and other do.
"I've had my share of disagreements with Sylvanas... But I will never forget her sacrifice. She was the Ranger-General of Silvermoon. Nothing will ever change that." - Lor'themar.

She is doing most of the things like how Arthas did. She is even killing innocent kids now. The things have changed.
He is afraid probably for Blood elves security at this point, as she goes further in destroying everything that comes to her way.

[Kyphael]

How weird how nothing you said supports your opening premise. As in, you haven't even tried to establish a link there yourself. And since when does the Horde work on claims? No one has a claim to the Horde because it's not a piece of territory or a monarchy. Sylvanas is the Warchief. That's all that there is to how the Horde works.

And yet the title of Warchief in itself for the most part, isn't worth the equivalent if it was jotted down on a paper napkin. See Garrosh as Warchief. They can be challenged and overthrown at an individual's whim if they see them unfit or weak for the position. Not much of a leg to stand on.

- - - Updated - - -

You do realize Baine has repeatedly backstabbed the tauren and undermined their survival, right?

Pretty sure if the Tauren themselves hated Baine so much, we would hear about it or they would revolt and overthrow him, and side with Sylvanas, but that hasn't been the case, has it?

[Super Dickmann]

Pretty sure if the Tauren themselves hated Baine so much, we would hear about it or they would revolt and overthrow him, and side with Sylvanas, but that hasn't been the case, has it?

I mean, they did. Baine had to exile every tauren with a set of balls back in Tides of War and despite this tauren are among those soldiers who arrest him, tauren cheer for the war when it's declared and a tauren makes a special set of drums just because ten years later there's still salt about muh Taurajo. Said tauren does it with the Earthmother's blessing, meaning Baine is also a heretic as peace goes against the Earthmother and the tauren should eat him for his blasphemy.

They'll turn on her next patch when it's public knowledge that she's an old god puppet, but hey.

[mickybrighteyes]

Where is Saurfang having this on his plans all along and that sylvanas has "little" involvement???

Saurfang is teh one who planned and orchestrated the campaign crossing Ashenvale into Darkshore, split forces to flank from Felwood and basically take everything up to the coast.

He did this because he was convinced by Sylvanas that fighting would be inevitable and in reality he wanted a good fight and maybe a chance to get his honorable death.


The rogues taking out guards with poison? He recruited all the rogues and relayed the plan to them. Sylvanas really just convinced the most influential orc that a war would be a good idea and he ran with it while she sat back and looked important and shout warchief type shit... then things went sideways when Saurfang backed out of his war objective and let Malfurion leave.

[Aeula]

The Belfs were ready to join the Alliance in MoP.

That is the true question of what the hell?

Again, Lor’themar was. Whether or not the entire race would have gone with him is up for debate.

[Aeula]

What I find shit with all of this is that if this was true, why would Lor'themar remain as leader of Belfs?

It wasn't exactly public knowledge. He only told the player as far as I'm aware. Sylvanas somehow found out too.

[Sesethi]

They've been that way since they betrayed the Alliance and sided with the Horde scum.

They didn't have a choice on the matter.... Garithos was all like that Commander from the South Park movie with the other races, specially the elves.

[froschhure]

the true leader of the horde is lor'themar. and im sure he will chomp of that head of sylvanas real quick.

i say its okay to seek help from anduin. at least he knows he will get the help he needs. where should he else turn to, when everybody is glorifying sylvanas.

or would you like to see your own people get slaughtered by the leader you believing in? Lor'themar is the only one that has the guts to stand his ground.

[shise]

You got it all wrong tho, it is Sylvanas who has betrayed the Horde, regardless of what you think. The fact is that no leader likes her doing anymore.

You can like her, but you should assume that you are in the dark side, the evil and, eventually, loser side


Sadly that is how it is, Sylvanas was a great character with potential, useless for a long time and when they finally decided to give her attention, they messed it up.

[Soon-TM]

It's a Mists rehash anyway, so hoping the end result would be any different is pointless.

The funniest part is that the more than the writers try to drift the story away from MoP's, the less sense they make.