So many spec's left out of Mythic plus

[Garymorilix]

1: I don't see it. As an example, King Rastakhan is a high movement fight https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...272&dataset=90 Warlock is ahead on high movement fights. Affliction is great at movement fights.

2: Guilds stacked warlocks on mythic Uu'nat because warlock has the most survivability.

3: Yeah mages have ice block (bloodlust isn't a good argument since hunters and shamans also bring it and it doesn't stack.) I never argued warlocks have better utility (though in this specific raid tier warlock utility is more useful except for stormwall.)

Encounter matters but you'll find that mage is notably worse than Warlock on literally 11 out of 11 fights this raid tier. Funny enough, mage only touches elemental shaman on conclave where mage gets an absurd spellsteal buff.

That's exactly my point though, there aren't ups and downs. It's a static curve where you're always better off bringing specific classes this tier. That's what's so bad.

1.) Not every "high-movement" fight is the same. Your argument is again based on generalization.

2.) Not every type of survivability is the same. Check why warlock survivability is better there than mage. Again, generalization.

3.) See, you seem to get it, warlocks seem to have better stuff in this specific raid tier. Ain't hard to deduct. Yet, when you look at actual stats they are still below 10% in variance.

Every. single. tier. has top dogs. This is nothing new ever since vanilla. But unlike most of WoW's lifetime, specs are more balanced now then ever. This does not mean that they perform the same. This means that every spec has a chance to step into an encounter and pull his weight. Maybe next tier we'll have mage being the number one class. Depends on the encounters, not the class.

Don't be salty cuz your spec is not the best at everything. It really doesn't matter.

[Nitros14]

Depends on the encounters, not the class.

Don't be salty cuz your spec is not the best at everything. It really doesn't matter.

You're ignoring the point. It doesn't depend on the encounter, because a number of specs this tier are better at literally every sort of damage pattern than other specs. It's not about being the best at everything but it feels really bad to never be good at anything. It also means that there's no niche reason to have these bad specs on the roster since there's literally no time you'll be glad you brought them.

Even in Hellfire Citadel which had the biggest outlier of all time (arcane mage) there were a number of encounters arcane mage wasn't good at.

Part of what's really bad about this tier isn't even the balance though and I'll agree with you on this. The encounter design requires the same damage pattern for almost every fight which exacerbates any balance issues.

It's kind of a perfect storm of certain specs being overtuned and all of the encounters favouring those overtuned specs that makes this tier feel so bad.

If the encounters were more varied and the bad classes were brought up maybe 5% you'd be very close to perfect balance. But Blizzard seems completely uninterested in tuning their game. Like even in Emerald Nightmare and Hellfire Citadel when balance wasn't the best you still saw 3-4% buffs to the lowest specs every couple of months. It's like Blizzard is afk.

[HuxNeva]

Edit: Randomly picked another link, this time for Stormwall- and again changing the percentile of the parse changes the story. Turns out at the really high end Fire mages can do wonders on that fight.

W0W suddenly the story changes depending on the data set you choose... imagine that!

Yeah, it shows that the nr.1 Fire mage parse can through ultimate skill and RNG match the dps of a 40'th percentile semi afk on a bad pull Shadow priest. XD

And yes, ofc that isn't the whole story. Some damage is far more important than other. Can you lay it down when it is needed is what matters, and this goes far beyond 'padding', but the number of people that can really read a log and draw the right information from it is ridiculously small.

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You have proven nothing.

Mages have different tools than Warlocks.
Mages come with a 10% int buff for other casters, like Warlocks, so they can do more dmg.
Mages have BL. Mages can blink. Mages can Ice Block.

These are just different tools, you can't compare 2 classes. They are below 10% regarding average variance, which is perfectly acceptable.

I already told you multiple times that encounter matters. That's why elemental shamans used to sim high but perform badly, because there was a lot of movement which they couldnt handle.
When you say that "warlock is better at cleave" you might be right. Mage is better at movement, survivability, has BL and other stuff. Different ups, different downs.

I still don't believe you don't get it.

Let's call a spade a spade: if any ability/strategy would exist in a raid environment that allows you to negate as much of the encounter as shroud does in M+ it would be called an exploit. That this 'ability' comes on top of a class that already is completely OP in every other respect is just ridiculous. There is simply no downside.

Btw: the net Mage buff is 3%, as the rest can be gotten from a war-scroll by anyone. Ice-block is inferior to a hunter's turtle, and often situationaly inferior to a rogue's cheat dead, which is what the Fire Mage Cauterize should have been instead of the troll joke it is. The only really good thing the mage has is blink, and even there Blizz could not resist from trolling you when there is a grain of sand on a mirror flat surface.

Bonus question: Why isn't there a War-scroll of Shroud?

[Garymorilix]

Yeah, it shows that the nr.1 Fire mage parse can through ultimate skill and RNG match the dps of a 40'th percentile semi afk on a bad pull Shadow priest. XD

And yes, ofc that isn't the whole story. Some damage is far more important than other. Can you lay it down when it is needed is what matters, and this goes far beyond 'padding', but the number of people that can really read a log and draw the right information from it is ridiculously small.

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Let's call a spade a spade: if any ability/strategy would exist in a raid environment that allows you to negate as much of the encounter as shroud does in M+ it would be called an exploit. That this 'ability' comes on top of a class that already is completely OP in every other respect is just ridiculous. There is simply no downside.

Btw: the net Mage buff is 3%, as the rest can be gotten from a war-scroll by anyone. Ice-block is inferior to a hunter's turtle, and often situationaly inferior to a rogue's cheat dead, which is what the Fire Mage Cauterize should have been instead of the troll joke it is. The only really good thing the mage has is blink, and even there Blizz could not resist from trolling you when there is a grain of sand on a mirror flat surface.

Bonus question: Why isn't there a War-scroll of Shroud?

Invis potions.

[Gatto]

Checking on Raiderio leaderboards, i see that all classes appears on high lvl mythics.

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...boards#content

As many said, they balance the game around mythic/Raids, so maybe there could be a spec which is more performant than another ( due to raid mechanics, mythic afflixes, ranged vs melee, etc... ).

The fact that in the top 30 you can see all the classes is definitely good to me ( even if i will have to play a different spec for my class ).

[Koor]

Checking on Raiderio leaderboards, i see that all classes appears on high lvl mythics.

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...boards#content

As many said, they balance the game around mythic/Raids, so maybe there could be a spec which is more performant than another ( due to raid mechanics, mythic afflixes, ranged vs melee, etc... ).

The fact that in the top 30 you can see all the classes is definitely good to me ( even if i will have to play a different spec for my class ).

Not all classes. In the top 30 groups we have:

Tanks: 27 prot warriors, 3 prot paladins, 0 dk, 0 dh, 0 druid.

Healers: 28 resto druids, 2 disc priests, 0 pala, 0 monk, 0 shaman. In fact I scrolled to #2000 and haven't found a single resto shaman (my hand hurts from scrolling further...)

DPS: 43 rogues, 16 demon hunters, 12 mages, 6 elemental shaman, 4 hunters, 4 ret pala, 2 monks, 2 priests, 1 balance druid.

So for tanks and healers, you have to be prot warrior and resto druid.
DPS: A rogue spot is almost guaranteed, often we have two rogues in the same group, with a demon hunter closely after.
Then for the last place you see other specs here and there.

This is not balanced!

[Gatto]

Not all classes. In the top 30 groups we have:

Tanks: 27 prot warriors, 3 prot paladins, 0 dk, 0 dh, 0 druid.

Healers: 28 resto druids, 2 disc priests, 0 pala, 0 monk, 0 shaman. In fact I scrolled to #2000 and haven't found a single resto shaman (my hand hurts from scrolling further...)

DPS: 43 rogues, 16 demon hunters, 12 mages, 6 elemental shaman, 4 hunters, 4 ret pala, 2 monks, 2 priests, 1 balance druid.

So for tanks and healers, you have to be prot warrior and resto druid.
DPS: A rogue spot is almost guaranteed, often we have two rogues in the same group, with a demon hunter closely after.
Then for the last place you see other specs here and there.

This is not balanced!

As I wrote before ( and I specified classes, not specs ), it's not about balance, but accessibility ( which means that the class you play fits in endgame content ).

Many said it already, that even if you try to balance the whole mythic stuff, there will always be:

- the best team composition
- the best damage dealer ( single and aoe )
- the best tank
- the best healer

And all above could change depends the instance and the afflixes, so no balance at all.

The only thing they could do ( but it would be forcing the players ) is to limit all mythics 1x class.

[cparle87]

I'd say that's due to player perception over anything else, not an issue on the classes themselves. People see top players\streamers comps, they see MDI comps, and they gravitate towards those. Perfectly normal.

But sure, 20 probably might have been a bit high of a mark, in particular just after leaving the best affixes in raging\volcanic behind.

I had this exact issue come up with a friend of mine. He rolled a boomkin cause he saw MDI guys using it, and wondered why he wasn't doing that insanely good in the low keys (5-10) that he was doing. I told him part of it was cause the mobs were dying before his dots could do their best damage, among other things. 20+ and 10 might as well be different games.

[HuxNeva]

Invis potions.

Lol. You serious? XD

[Garymorilix]

Lol. You serious? XD

You asked for "scroll of shroud".
This is literally that.

Even back in Legion they were frequently used to pass stuff. Just because you refuse to use them doesn't make them not exist.

[Ealyssa]

There is such a thing as getting reasonably close enough

Nope, there really isn't. Min-maxing at top level will always do just that. And that's unbalancable as long as we have different specs playing will differents spells. No matter how close you may be on DPS, class X having CD Y being more in line with pulls at 1:00 3:45 and 4:14 mark will be preffered as class Z who don't.

And that's fine. Nobody ask you're weekly runs to be min-maxed like its a competition. You can take a mage if you want, and enhancement shaman or even a survival hunter in your group and you'll be just fine.

Kiding for the SV hunt BTW, kick that guy

[Frolk]

Not all classes. In the top 30 groups we have:

Tanks: 27 prot warriors, 3 prot paladins, 0 dk, 0 dh, 0 druid.

Healers: 28 resto druids, 2 disc priests, 0 pala, 0 monk, 0 shaman. In fact I scrolled to #2000 and haven't found a single resto shaman (my hand hurts from scrolling further...)

DPS: 43 rogues, 16 demon hunters, 12 mages, 6 elemental shaman, 4 hunters, 4 ret pala, 2 monks, 2 priests, 1 balance druid.

So for tanks and healers, you have to be prot warrior and resto druid.
DPS: A rogue spot is almost guaranteed, often we have two rogues in the same group, with a demon hunter closely after.
Then for the last place you see other specs here and there.

This is not balanced!

Its almost like there will ALWAYS be a "best" spec for something, even if its best by 5%, the top 1% will pick that class/spec to get an edge, if all tanks were balanced within 2% of each other, the top 1% would STILL pick the best one and that will never change.
Thats like complaining #1 guilds for not picking lots of melee for Uu`nat Mythic over stacking locks as locks gave a lot of advantages other specs didt offer.

[HuxNeva]

You asked for "scroll of shroud".
This is literally that.

Even back in Legion they were frequently used to pass stuff. Just because you refuse to use them doesn't make them not exist.

So you are serious XD
A potion that shares CD with all other potions, so forget potting for the next fights, that breaks on any spell usage, is equal to a 30 yard shroud that leaves no debuffs and doesn't break on any ability used, so you can mount, blink, rush whatever AND has no effect on your normal potion routines is somehow supposed to be even close?

Ofc we all have stacks off them in our bags, but no one is going to claim it is the same as having a rogue shroud. An invis pot will let you skip a hard pack or two, at a cost , while a shroud let's you skip all the trash right up-to the next boss

[lummiuster]

I have been playing a lot of classes and specs. I really enjoy running keys only a 17-19 plus player around the 1.8k skill but I really enjoy it. The problem I am seeing is there are so many classes that don't even come close to Rogues, Demonhunters, Windwalkers a Protection Warriors. I am really speaking about Arcane, Fire, Sub rogues. The fury and arms warriors and survival hunters of the world.

I just wish they would stop nerfing classes that are fun and maybe help the classes that are underachieving. Honestly if mythic plus is going to be as popular as it seems going forward every class and spec should have options to help a group achieve whether through traits or talents to compete.

What you all think, I am suggesting fix what's lacking and leave what is good as is just give options for every class and personal spec a chance.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks

Man, remember that you are playing to have fun. You can run anything on any spec. Find a group of friends/guild or classes that complement yours. The fun of the game is to kill things using the abilities you like. You shouldnt care at all if other classes do it better or worst.

[HuxNeva]

Its almost like there will ALWAYS be a "best" spec for something, even if its best by 5%, the top 1% will pick that class/spec to get an edge, if all tanks were balanced within 2% of each other, the top 1% would STILL pick the best one and that will never change.
Thats like complaining #1 guilds for not picking lots of melee for Uu`nat Mythic over stacking locks as locks gave a lot of advantages other specs didt offer.

Can we please stop pretending that this is a 'World First'/'MDI finals' problem?

[Garymorilix]

So you are serious XD
A potion that shares CD with all other potions, so forget potting for the next fights, that breaks on any spell usage, is equal to a 30 yard shroud that leaves no debuffs and doesn't break on any ability used, so you can mount, blink, rush whatever AND has no effect on your normal potion routines is somehow supposed to be even close?

Ofc we all have stacks off them in our bags, but no one is going to claim it is the same as having a rogue shroud. An invis pot will let you skip a hard pack or two, at a cost , while a shroud let's you skip all the trash right up-to the next boss

Ermh, this is a non argument.

I never said invis potion was as good as shroud. And by the way, any ability usage does break shroud outside of movement abilities. I don't know what abilities you wanna use during shrouding anyways, the whole point is that you just run. Mage blink is an utterly dumb argument, cuz mages have their own invis spell in the first place.
Scrolls of whatever buffs are not better than any class buffs. Engi CR is not better than class CR. Drums are not as good as BL. These are there to fill the gaps if your group lacks one or the other. No one can claim that any of these are not objectively worse than the real stuff. But that's not the point. Use what you have, you won't feel more accomplished by trying to take away something you don't have from someone else. That's just sad.

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Can we please stop pretending that this is a 'World First'/'MDI finals' problem?

"Level 20 and up" are a pretty small percentage of players. These are the comps that actually require you to use the best-of-the-best.

This graph does not disprove the comment you replied to. His whole point was that even if one class was 1% better than another one, the pros would still only pick that 1% better class. This literally just proves his point.

[Aphrel]

There is such a thing as getting reasonably close enough to where differences in potential don't matter nearly as much as differences in skill, though. I'd say 10% or better spread from best to worst is acceptable. 5% is ideal. WoW devs have been historically and colossally incompetent in this matter, though.

After so many years of seeing superobvious imbalances going throu im convinced that they intentionally dont balance classes but instead just shuffle around a new meta each teir. Its the only logical conclusion.

[Frolk]

Can we please stop pretending that this is a 'World First'/'MDI finals' problem?

Remind me how many of the playerbase is doing 20+ and higher, COULD it be...the...1%?
So my point remains id argue.

[HuxNeva]

Remind me how many of the playerbase is doing 20+ and higher, COULD it be...the...1%?
So my point remains id argue.

But it is far larger than just MDI, let say the M+ 'mythic' community. But if you look further down at your bread and butter 'heroic' M+ run, things dont get much different for DPS and Heals at least



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Scrolls of whatever buffs are not better than any class buffs.

No, but the differences are quantitative, relatively small and linear. Invis pot vs shroud is a complete qualitative difference with gamechanging implications

[Garymorilix]

But it is far larger than just MDI, let say the M+ 'mythic' community. But if you look further down at your bread and butter 'heroic' M+ run, things dont get much different for DPS and Heals at least



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No, but the differences are quantitative, relatively small and linear. Invis pot vs shroud is a complete qualitative difference with gamechanging implications

They both give stealth, there is nothing game changing about it, that's been in the game for a while.
It's wierd how you don't complain about DH's at the same time, they don't have anything but damage yet they are even more present on the M+ scene than rogues overall.

But again: watch Reaping go and these will simply change by themselves. I remember the frost mage debate in 8.0, it's the same sh*t now. Frost mage was nerfed, then the content didn't favor it anymore, so it's fallen behind. Now outlaw is nerfed, then the content won't favor it, it's gonna fall behind. It's that simple.