Draenei are evil

[Heldamon]

What bothers me about that is that the orcs had to do that after they were deceived by the demons.

Wrong.
They did it before they get corrupted

[Syegfryed]

Wrong.
They did it before they get corrupted

they were already deceived and influenced by demon magic

[Synros]

If that were the only reason, then why did the Legion use them to attack Azeroth? They could have walked away and let the orcs murder each other. And why did the Legion corrupt the nathrezim, the eredar, or the night elves? None of those were tied to "exterminating the draenei." If you think that Kil'jaeden saw the potential for the orcs and would've just skipped over them had the draenei not been there, then I think you're underestimating the Legion's motivation to corrupt powerful races across the universe.

The only reason Kil'Jaeden even ever found out about the orcs, was because of the Draenei... And of course he'd use them to invade Azeroth, because that's been the Legion's goal the whole time...

You seem to be selectively ignoring parts of the lore...

[Aresk]

The only reason Kil'Jaeden even ever found out about the orcs, was because of the Draenei... And of course he'd use them to invade Azeroth, because that's been the Legion's goal the whole time...

You seem to be selectively ignoring parts of the lore...

The reason he found out about the orcs when he did was because of the draenei. Even if the draenei had been destroyed back in Argus, Kil'jaeden would have still likely corrupted the orcs, as he did with the nathrezim and annihilan. He didn't only target races because of what the draenei did, and the orcs were useful for more than just eradicating the draenei. If you look back to WC, Kil'jaeden corrupted the orcs even after the draenei had been nearly completely eradicated (before the TBC retcon), so it would've happened with or without the draenei's presence.

[Wyrt]

Orcs go full blown genocidal at the drop of a hat.

If I crash landed on their planet I'd stay the fuck away from them too.

[Trassk]

Orcs go full blown genocidal at the drop of a hat.

If I crash landed on their planet I'd stay the fuck away from them too.

Before the asshole writers in wod decided to screw up the past and ignore Warcrafts actual past with their revamped alternative reality past story, in the actual past lore, the orcs weren't a war like race, as rise of the horde, the novel, showcased

This is what happens when a franchise has writers changing hands every few years, people who think they can redo past stories better

[DaHomieG]

Remember when the Orcs genocided so many Draenei that they were able to pave a big ol' road called Path of Glory with their bones?

Orcs are a culture of peace.

Yeah but the orcs did that BECAUSE they were corrupted. Prior to that they lived peacefully with their new Draenei neighbors.

[Irian]

Be orcs

Spend countless years barely evolving as a species to the point where an alternate universe outsider needed to teach you how to properly use fucking iron

Continue warring between each other and engaging in random primitive acts of vengeance

Speak to an ancestor that tells you to slaughter an entire species

Do not question this bizarre and extremely uncharacteristic statement at all

Attack and slaughter draenei with no assistance or interference from demons at all

Fail

Voluntarily drink demon blood so you can more effectively slaughter the innocent race trying to defend itself

Go on to attack even more innocents in other worlds because why stop there?

See how easy this is? Yeah from some twisted perspective you can see basically anyone as evil. Orcs and draenei were at best unfriendly co-habitants, they never were really on proper speaking terms, what the hell do you expect draenei to do? And who the hell even says draenei never warned the orcs about the Legion anyway?

It took one easily-disguised finger pointing at the draenei for the orcs to start massacring them. And even without that finger, the orcs still went on the same massacre. Orcs are not the good guys here. Draenei may not be blameless but you can't fault them for daring to exist and trying to survive, especially when Velen prophesied that the draenei had to survive in order to defeat the Legion.

I want to clarify though that I don't think the orcs are evil either, I made that to prove a point to OP. Trying to victim-blame the draenei for daring to be hunted across the universe is pretty shitty, even when we're talking about a fictional race.

[Wyrt]

Before the asshole writers in wod decided to screw up the past and ignore Warcrafts actual past with their revamped alternative reality past story, in the actual past lore, the orcs weren't a war like race, as rise of the horde, the novel, showcased

This is what happens when a franchise has writers changing hands every few years, people who think they can redo past stories better

Ignoring that the orcs went full blown genocidal in MoP?

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah but the orcs did that BECAUSE they were corrupted. Prior to that they lived peacefully with their new Draenei neighbors.

We've seen the orcs try the genocide thing twice now without corruption. So, nice try, but no. Orcs are just violent dickbags.

[Zandalariprelate]

Genocide against the trolls... the ones that scalped people, made them into dried body parts, and canabalized humans? hmmm
garithos was not evil, just abit of a racist to the elves, which is bad, but not evil when compared to right out mass genocide.
not liking elves is far better then mass genocide.

wanting to kill kalethas... hmmm i wonder why...
supporting the purge of dalaran? scooz me? did you hear varians reaction? also the purge of dalaran was not "humans being evil" you do know ALOT of the purge was done by ELVES right? do you forget the one who did most of the killing was vereesa... AN ELF. also the purge of dalaran was not just people being evil, it was a fight after the horde had betrayed the neutralitly of the city for the first time.

hailing arthas as a hero? when he returned and killed his father NOT A SINGLE SANE HUMAN PRAISED HIM.

when he returned yes, cause no one knew what happened in northrend.

you seriously are twisting everything just like op my dude.

Mind telling me when the alliance commit genocide to an innocent defencless race they were allies with until that moment? when they slaughtered their prisonsers, enslaves, raped, murdered, tortured, and drained the souls of? mind telling me when the humans destroyed a planet, and hoped to destroy hundreds more?

1) Trolls doesn't eat human or elf meat unless they are bordeline of starvation because they believe if you consume the meat of weak people you just become weak as them and usually used the parts for their loas in rituals and decoration purpose, the same thing the humans and elves did with troll husks, feets and even using some parts for different and weird things as luxory hides(for a short time)

2) Now killing Kael'thas was bad? The only wrong Arthas did was not wiping out the rest of the humans kingdomes!

3) Yes Arthas being hail as a hero after Stratholme which in the human standars of wow seems to be a vile act, still people didn't give a damm about that which only proves that both Jaina and Uther are 2 of the biggest morons in the old alliance

4) You have the vulperas being hunted by the alliance and their homes being burned, also just wait for Yrel setting Orgrimmar into the biggest pyre of the continent

[FelPlague]

1) Trolls doesn't eat human or elf meat unless they are bordeline of starvation because they believe if you consume the meat of weak people you just become weak as them and usually used the parts for their loas in rituals and decoration purpose, the same thing the humans and elves did with troll husks, feets and even using some parts for different and weird things as luxory hides(for a short time)

2) Now killing Kael'thas was bad? The only wrong Arthas did was not wiping out the rest of the humans kingdomes!

3) Yes Arthas being hail as a hero after Stratholme which in the human standars of wow seems to be a vile act, still people didn't give a damm about that which only proves that both Jaina and Uther are 2 of the biggest morons in the old alliance

4) You have the vulperas being hunted by the alliance and their homes being burned, also just wait for Yrel setting Orgrimmar into the biggest pyre of the continent

1. "Cannibalism is a relatively common troll practice. Several specific troll tribes have been confirmed as cannibalistic, including the Mossflayer and Vilebranch tribes. All of the currently known tribes of ice trolls practice cannibalism. Sand trolls, forest trolls, dark trolls, and jungle trolls are also frequently cannibalistic. Notable exceptions include the Zandalar and Revantusk tribes. The Darkspear tribe practiced cannibalism until they joined forces with the Horde, who forbade the practice.[10]

Not all trolls practice voodoo, but it is as widespread as cannibalism. Little is known about the emergence of voodoo among the trolls, for most tribes that possess such knowledge are unwilling to share it with outsiders. However, with the recent advent of Zandalari trolls to Yojamba Isle, many researchers have speculated that voodoo may have originated with the Zandalari.[10]"

2. what? why are you jumping back and forth

3. what? stratholme was a neccisary thing, it was not evil to put his people out of their misery, and kill them before they could turn. you are seriously streching to obscene standards here. What Arthas did in stratholme was not evil, however it was difficult. Killing the undead, or those about to turn into undeath is not an evil act.

if you have a family member who is about to die, and they are going through insane pain, would you dare call it evil to pull their life support? what the fuck is wrong wiht you.

4. vulpera being hunted? mind showing me where? also their homes being burned... with no one inside... the horde would NEVER do such a thing... oh no, they wouldnt, cause they wouldnt let the people escape first.

yrel is not part of the alliance.

[saintminya]

The cloud of alliance-bias in here is pretty thick.

Upon arriving on the planet, the Draenei introduced themselves to the Orc shamans in Nagrand. They respected each other, and due to the Draenei choice to mainly remain isolated, the Orcs also mainly kept to themselves. There was peace until Ner'zhul was deceived by the deceiver. Ner'zhul wasn't dumb, if he had been warned that there was a being trekking across the stars in pursuit of the prophet Velen who was exceptionally gifted at deceiving others to do his bidding, then it is reasonable to say that he may have been suspicious about his visions of his wife urging him to abandon his peaceful ways. Being warned about KJ may have also made no difference. That is something we can't know for sure.

What we can know for certain is that the Draenei knew who were pursuing them. They knew the Legion razed the planets in their path. They may have crashed there on Draenor, but they willingly decided to make it their permanent residence. They knew it was inhabited by cultures beyond their own, and they knew the planet was doomed upon KJ's arrival. The Legion as a whole may never have wound up there if not for KJ's pursuit, as Azeroth was always the focus. Velen and his followers knew the planet was doomed, and made zero effort to prevent it. Not on their own, and not with any of the other inhabitants of the planet. We know Ner'zhul was not told about Kil'jaeden. We know that no Orc not named Gul'dan knew about him or his plan. We know that no Draenei ever told any Orc about KJ.

Orcs were the bigger victims in all this. They had their way of life uprooted and exchanged for bloodlust, and lost their home planet. Velen's Draenei abandoned their home planet, while brave Draenei stayed defending it. Then after fleeing dozens of other planets, set up their beacon on the Orcish homeworld. The Draenei lost plenty of lives, but their cowardice cost the Orc's their planet.

[Zandalariprelate]

1. "Cannibalism is a relatively common troll practice. Several specific troll tribes have been confirmed as cannibalistic, including the Mossflayer and Vilebranch tribes. All of the currently known tribes of ice trolls practice cannibalism. Sand trolls, forest trolls, dark trolls, and jungle trolls are also frequently cannibalistic. Notable exceptions include the Zandalar and Revantusk tribes. The Darkspear tribe practiced cannibalism until they joined forces with the Horde, who forbade the practice.[10]

Not all trolls practice voodoo, but it is as widespread as cannibalism. Little is known about the emergence of voodoo among the trolls, for most tribes that possess such knowledge are unwilling to share it with outsiders. However, with the recent advent of Zandalari trolls to Yojamba Isle, many researchers have speculated that voodoo may have originated with the Zandalari.[10]"

2. what? why are you jumping back and forth

3. what? stratholme was a neccisary thing, it was not evil to put his people out of their misery, and kill them before they could turn. you are seriously streching to obscene standards here. What Arthas did in stratholme was not evil, however it was difficult. Killing the undead, or those about to turn into undeath is not an evil act.

if you have a family member who is about to die, and they are going through insane pain, would you dare call it evil to pull their life support? what the fuck is wrong wiht you.

4. vulpera being hunted? mind showing me where? also their homes being burned... with no one inside... the horde would NEVER do such a thing... oh no, they wouldnt, cause they wouldnt let the people escape first.

yrel is not part of the alliance.

1) Cannibalism between each other, there is a mention of a mad follower of Zul from Zandalar that used to ate ice troll meat in orden to get "their frost resistance" which by Vol'jin and others Zandalaris was saw as something horrible like we see to people who eats dogs and cat. There is no proof any troll tribe used to hunt and eat humans/elves, they just used their body parts with macabre decoration which is another cultural thing(just like using luxurious hides is a horrible act for some druid groups). You still prove my point the trolls weren't really a danger for the humans welfare, only that they wanted to conquer more lands

2) You are approving Garithos trying to kill Kael'thas and probably the majority of the blood elves army which mind you was a race near of the extintion.

3)Nope, both Uther and Jaina were throwing a fit with the mere mention of killing peasants that were infected and just walk away while preaching about their morality, then Uther ran to cry in the shoulders of Terenas and requested his son to get back to the capital which means he wanted to trial Arthas or maybe just quiting from the militar service. In any case he and Jaina proved their morality means nothing if it brings results since nobody cared their prince did one of the few morality grey action of the entire franchise.

4) I'm gonna leave 2 links
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEW_V1bt0lQ

https://i.redd.it/omfxr3rrvt621.jpg

5) Not yet but if some rumors and leaks are true, the alliance will get their inner conflict starting with the nobles that will leave an open window for some people to get power

C'mon dude, stop roleplaying as a human paladin

[Tripzzz]

The cloud of alliance-bias in here is pretty thick.

Upon arriving on the planet, the Draenei introduced themselves to the Orc shamans in Nagrand. They respected each other, and due to the Draenei choice to mainly remain isolated, the Orcs also mainly kept to themselves. There was peace until Ner'zhul was deceived by the deceiver. Ner'zhul wasn't dumb, if he had been warned that there was a being trekking across the stars in pursuit of the prophet Velen who was exceptionally gifted at deceiving others to do his bidding, then it is reasonable to say that he may have been suspicious about his visions of his wife urging him to abandon his peaceful ways. Being warned about KJ may have also made no difference. That is something we can't know for sure.

What we can know for certain is that the Draenei knew who were pursuing them. They knew the Legion razed the planets in their path. They may have crashed there on Draenor, but they willingly decided to make it their permanent residence. They knew it was inhabited by cultures beyond their own, and they knew the planet was doomed upon KJ's arrival. The Legion as a whole may never have wound up there if not for KJ's pursuit, as Azeroth was always the focus. Velen and his followers knew the planet was doomed, and made zero effort to prevent it. Not on their own, and not with any of the other inhabitants of the planet. We know Ner'zhul was not told about Kil'jaeden. We know that no Orc not named Gul'dan knew about him or his plan. We know that no Draenei ever told any Orc about KJ.

Orcs were the bigger victims in all this. They had their way of life uprooted and exchanged for bloodlust, and lost their home planet. Velen's Draenei abandoned their home planet, while brave Draenei stayed defending it. Then after fleeing dozens of other planets, set up their beacon on the Orcish homeworld. The Draenei lost plenty of lives, but their cowardice cost the Orc's their planet.

Your whole argument relies on an assumption. We know the Burning Legion's goal was to destroy every single planet in the multiverse in search of world souls. Draenor was doomed whether the Draenei landed there or not. Sargeras wanted to destroy all of creation.

[Ielenia]

Yeah, in that regard, Draenei are dicks. Velen himself had to own up to that in a way when Illidan threw it in his face during Legion that he is more or less an interstellar coward, running from his problems and vicariously bringing his problems to others' doorsteps, namely Orcs and eventually denizens of Azeroth. The corruption of the Orcs can be blamed solely on Velen and the Draenei and justifiably so.

Yeah.... no. You're acting as if the draenei didn't exist, the Burning Legion would just leave Draenor alone.

Newsflash: they wouldn't. The Burning Legion would eventually, sooner or later, reach Draenor and corrupt the orcs, regardless of the existence of draenei.

[FelPlague]

4) I'm gonna leave 2 links
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEW_V1bt0lQ

https://i.redd.it/omfxr3rrvt621.jpg

not even gonna respond to the rest as its right out ignoring massive key points
i think you forget those are from PTR not release
notice how that is november? because 8.1 released.
because once 8.1 released the alliance scares off the vulpera.
also you show two people fighting... oh god a vulpera attacking a human and said human burning a vulpera...
oh and wait that's not even a human, thats a fucking dwarf.

your video shows alliance fightign vulpera...
and alliance burning some empty carts...
ok? where do you see alliance "hunting" vulpera, i see you chose that specific word very carefully, and "burning their homes" small caravanes filled with supplies for the horde...

You can literally see the horde supplies here, and the alliance side does not do any of this.
we scare off the gaurds and then burn the supplies.

if you do not want to become an enemy to the alliance, and have your homes burned
dont transport horde supplies with your homes...
"They burned down their homes!" which were filled with horde supplies...
"They attacked them!" cause they were defending horde supplies...

[Ielenia]

that they didn't know what it was, and after being corrupted and manipulated,

Yes, they didn't. But in the WoD timeline, they did... and drank it, anyways.

[Syegfryed]

"don't blame a killer, like, we gonna die anyway"

If the draeneis never land in draenor who know how many hundread of years draenor could survive, and maybe even evolve, so they would not be so nave to believe the Legion

And if the Legion land there, at least it would be in their own

Velen and the draenei had the obligation to do anything they could to warn the other races, and not live like nothing was going to happen, they could even create a strong defense in there if every race was so advanced as they.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, they didn't. But in the WoD timeline, they did... and drank it, anyways.

but in wod they didn't drink demon blood

[Ielenia]

but in wod they didn't drink demon blood

Yes, they did. Gul'dan offered a second helping of demon blood after the Blackrock Foundry. Grommash refused, but basically everyone else did, Kilrogg included. Did you forget the entire questing in Tanaan Jungle and Hellfire Citadel?

[saintminya]

Sargeras' primary goal was Azeroth. He wanted world-souls. If the Legion still happened across Draenor either before or after reaching Azeroth, it'd likely still get wrecked. The Orcs could have had several more centuries or millennia on their home planet in the meantime if not for the Draenei.

@Trippz, this is a thread about the Draenei's role in the destruction of Draenor. It is a fact that Kil'jaeden was drawn to the planet because of Velen and his lot. It is also a fact that the Draenei did absolutely nothing to prevent its destruction. Just as it is a fact that the majority of the Orc population were shamanic and peaceful prior to KJ's arrival. My only assumption was the possibility that Draenor could have been left unharmed, which doesn't change the fact that the Draenei caused its harm.