So many spec's left out of Mythic plus

[Poe]

The statistics for 10+ keys would be more appropriate. Not sure why you thought 20+ keys were relevant.

[pay928]

don't complain about DH's at the same time, they don't have anything but damage yet they are even more present on the M+ scene than rogues overall.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-tricks/123407 lists a lot of DH-specific utility (related to Blade Dance dodge mostly). That alone makes some of the harder hitting bosses a lot easier to handle (Armor debuff in KR boss 3, last TD deadeye ability, etc.). Netherwalk/Imprison have the same utility as Cloak/Sap. Then Rogues have MD & Shroud while DHs have 5% magic dmg debuff (mostly useless if running meta group though), self sustain, purge, and AE stun.

[Depakote]

Dungeons should never have been made into highly competitive content. You can't fit enough classes let alone specs into them so most of the game's specs rot.

Until the devs realize what i've bolded the game will continue to lose subs.

[Garymorilix]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-tricks/123407 lists a lot of DH-specific utility (related to Blade Dance dodge mostly). That alone makes some of the harder hitting bosses a lot easier to handle (Armor debuff in KR boss 3, last TD deadeye ability, etc.). Netherwalk/Imprison have the same utility as Cloak/Sap. Then Rogues have MD & Shroud while DHs have 5% magic dmg debuff (mostly useless if running meta group though), self sustain, purge, and AE stun.

Man, I'm aware. I think that's pretty obvious regarding my stance on the subject. I intentionally dumbed it down as rogues are being dumbed down to "shroud op".
People just don't see classes as a whole, but just that one ability that's flashy n stuff.

[Deja Thoris]

They both give stealth, there is nothing game changing about it, that's been in the game for a while.
.

Yea definately nothing game changing about being able to shroud one way and pot back the other on KR. Or being able to do skips within 5 min of each other on any other dungeon. Or allowing people to dps pot because they didn't stealth.

[Garymorilix]

Yea definately nothing game changing about being able to shroud one way and pot back the other on KR. Or being able to do skips within 5 min of each other on any other dungeon. Or allowing people to dps pot because they didn't stealth.

And a druid can death run a whole motherlode alone, no problem.

Now imagine being Night Elves too. Crazy right.

You don't see me complaining. I can identify strengths and weaknesses and work around them. You can run 3 survival hunters sub-15 and still make it 2 stars. Of course, if you go into very high territory, you will need to have the best combos avaible. But you don't 'balance' based on those scenarios.

[HuxNeva]

The statistics for 10+ keys would be more appropriate. Not sure why you thought 20+ keys were relevant.

What is there to discuss about 10+? That is like discussing raid enthusiasts but then talking about Normal raids. Ofc anyone will do the 10 on each class

[Poe]

What is there to discuss about 10+? That is like discussing raid enthusiasts but then talking about Normal raids. Ofc anyone will do the 10 on each class

Cmplaining about lack of class diversity in the highest level of the game. Obviously there will always be a meta comp when doing 20+ keys and teams will continue to use the meta. There is nothing to discuss either way. Anyone complaining about lack of class/spec diversity probably isn't a very good player either way.

The skill cap for most players isn't anywhere close to the point where you would need a meta comp. So class diversity is literally irrelevant.

[Deja Thoris]

And a druid can death run a whole motherlode alone, no problem.

Now imagine being Night Elves too. Crazy right.

You don't see me complaining. I can identify strengths and weaknesses and work around them. You can run 3 survival hunters sub-15 and still make it 2 stars. Of course, if you go into very high territory, you will need to have the best combos avaible. But you don't 'balance' based on those scenarios.

Wow, what a non post. You can 2 chest under a 15 with a random comp! Thrilling insights.

[Garymorilix]

Wow, what a non post. You can 2 chest under a 15 with a random comp! Thrilling insights.

Snarky.

There is a reason you don't balance your game based on the top 1% of competitive players. This is not WoW exclusive behavior, this is universal. I'm sorry if it's such a hard concept to grasp with your narrow minded views on gameplay balance.

[Reyuna]

I miss MoP/WoD challenge modes. They were fun enough, yielded nice rewards and didn't have this toxic enviroment about them that m+ does once you start to push 19+ keys.

[HuxNeva]

Cmplaining about lack of class diversity in the highest level of the game. Obviously there will always be a meta comp when doing 20+ keys and teams will continue to use the meta. There is nothing to discuss either way. Anyone complaining about lack of class/spec diversity probably isn't a very good player either way.

The skill cap for most players isn't anywhere close to the point where you would need a meta comp. So class diversity is literally irrelevant.

As said at the start:

- If you accept WoW is or has become a meta-comp of the week kind of game (think Leauge of Legends) and enjoy that, then you have no problem.

- OP metas have always existed, that is not the point, what has changed dramatically is the accessibility to have them at the ready and thus the expectation/peer pressure of conforming to them at a certain level of ambition. It is not that long ago that class stacking was limited to the very top of day-raiding guilds.

- Going from lvl1-lvl120 is just a few hours and has been for quite some time. The only thing that changed there is that is now 'free' as in beer due to the ridiculously easy to get gold and the gold -> battle.net balance route that has eliminated the price of (character boost/race change /faction change /server transfer) services.

- Going from dinging max lvl to fully geared for Mythic Raids / high M+ has reduced significantly in BfA due to the emerged philosophy of 'returning/new players should be able play with their mates in really short time whatever the content'. You can argue this is inevitable in a multiplayer game with a dwindling playerbase, where any barrier to re-subscription will be eliminated.

And as for "The skill cap for most players isn't anywhere close to the point where you would need a meta comp. So class diversity is literally irrelevant.", that is ass backward. If a 40th percentile player of class/spec A matches the success of the 99th percentile player of class/spec B, then it is the off-meta class B player that is 'skill-capped', not the on-meta A player.

[Einsz]

From my perspective for random 10-15 I will never invite rogue or resto druid. You might say I'm crazy but every retard plays those this days because of MDI, all pug rogues and resto druids I played with sucked horribly.

[Reyuna]

From my perspective for random 10-15 I will never invite rogue or resto druid. You might say I'm crazy but every retard plays those this days because of MDI, all pug rogues and resto druids I played with sucked horribly.

Indeed. I have started to develop a similar approach. Untill the playerbase fights back against the token; Prot War - Rogue - Resto Druid - DH meta, Blizzard will just assume that you're only serious about m+ post 20 keys if you play one of these classes.

Blizzard need to massively rethink the "just amp up mob/boss health and damage." We can do better than that, allow all classes to bring something unique. At least design some dungeons around at least 1-2 classes so everyone has their niche. You could have one dungeon where a Mage can spell steal a crazy buff that benefits the group, another where a Hunter can tame a unique pet for the dungeon that interacts with the group somehow. Maybe an alter that only a Priest or Paladin can interact with to unlock something interesting.

Mythic+ is genuinely a good thing but unless it evolves away from just scaling damage and health, and always favouring the current meta and rendering 90% of the roster worthless, it will alienate people and turn people away.

[Poe]

As said at the start:

- If you accept WoW is or has become a meta-comp of the week kind of game (think Leauge of Legends) and enjoy that, then you have no problem.

- OP metas have always existed, that is not the point, what has changed dramatically is the accessibility to have them at the ready and thus the expectation/peer pressure of conforming to them at a certain level of ambition. It is not that long ago that class stacking was limited to the very top of day-raiding guilds.

- Going from lvl1-lvl120 is just a few hours and has been for quite some time. The only thing that changed there is that is now 'free' as in beer due to the ridiculously easy to get gold and the gold -> battle.net balance route that has eliminated the price of (character boost/race change /faction change /server transfer) services.

- Going from dinging max lvl to fully geared for Mythic Raids / high M+ has reduced significantly in BfA due to the emerged philosophy of 'returning/new players should be able play with their mates in really short time whatever the content'. You can argue this is inevitable in a multiplayer game with a dwindling playerbase, where any barrier to re-subscription will be eliminated.

And as for "The skill cap for most players isn't anywhere close to the point where you would need a meta comp. So class diversity is literally irrelevant.", that is ass backward. If a 40th percentile player of class/spec A matches the success of the 99th percentile player of class/spec B, then it is the off-meta class B player that is 'skill-capped', not the on-meta A player.

I don't know, it sounds more like you're complaining that your spec isn't being used on +25 keys.

[HuxNeva]

I don't know, it sounds more like you're complaining that your spec isn't being used on +25 keys.

You are right, you don't know.

[Trend]

Remind me how many of the playerbase is doing 20+ and higher, COULD it be...the...1%?
So my point remains id argue.

The statistics for 10+ keys would be more appropriate. Not sure why you thought 20+ keys were relevant.

The point of using a higher key is that things get more clear by cutting through nonsense signals. If you compare the speeds of a Ferrari and a Yugo in a school parking lot you won’t see much of a difference because the conditions do not allow for a true judgement. If you go to the racetrack you will see the huge difference. 10’s can be run by any scrub on any spec due to how ilvl 400+ gear is thrown around now - just like any car can get around the parking lot. People pay for runs, people get carried by friends, etc, etc. But fine, let’s look at 10’s since you guys don’t get the concept here.

In the past 2 weeks there have been 903,450 logged dps parses on +10s. Ordered by parse count, the middle 8 of 24 specs had 26% of those parses. I would say that’s pretty good even though it does point to the distribution being at least a little top heavy. But then we look at the top 8 and the bottom 8. The top had 67% of the parses and the bottom had 7% of the parses. If you do not believe there is an issue with this fact or that it is not indicative of the same problem seen on +20’s, you are a contrarian child with your head in the sand. 67 to 7 is just absurd and it gets more extreme as you get further out on the edges. For instance top 4 versus bottom 4 is 43% to 2%. There is not enough tinfoil in the world to look at the numbers and say there isn’t a problem.

[Poe]

The point of using a higher key is that things get more clear by cutting through nonsense signals. If you compare the speeds of a Ferrari and a Yugo in a school parking lot you won’t see much of a difference because the conditions do not allow for a true judgement. If you go to the racetrack you will see the huge difference. 10’s can be run by any scrub on any spec due to how ilvl 400+ gear is thrown around now - just like any car can get around the parking lot. People pay for runs, people get carried by friends, etc, etc. But fine, let’s look at 10’s since you guys don’t get the concept here.

In the past 2 weeks there have been 903,450 logged dps parses on +10s. Ordered by parse count, the middle 8 of 24 specs had 26% of those parses. I would say that’s pretty good even though it does point to the distribution being at least a little top heavy. But then we look at the top 8 and the bottom 8. The top had 67% of the parses and the bottom had 7% of the parses. If you do not believe there is an issue with this fact or that it is not indicative of the same problem seen on +20’s, you are a contrarian child with your head in the sand. 67 to 7 is just absurd and it gets more extreme as you get further out on the edges. For instance top 4 versus bottom 4 is 43% to 2%. There is not enough tinfoil in the world to look at the numbers and say there isn’t a problem.

It feels like the majority of people who actually care about spec diversity in 20+ keys are people with sub 1k io scores and blame their spec as to why they can't get in +15 pugs.

[Ranaas]

Mass invisibility to arcane mage and mass camouflage to survival hunter is a good idea.

Therefore it won't happen.

it should be a class based buff not spec based. all 3 rogue specs have shoud, all 3 mage and hunter specs should have that cloak aswell.

And I think all melee dps specs should have some form of aoe stun. shockwave to all warriors is mandatory or warrior dps and retri paladins will always be on back foot.

[Frolk]

It feels like the majority of people who actually care about spec diversity in 20+ keys are people with sub 1k io scores and blame their spec as to why they can't get in +15 pugs.

Got same issue with people pugging or raiding normal guilds complaining how mythic guilds are handling loot.

Its both funny and sad at same time, like a cute puppy with 3 legs running falling over itself.