Belfs turned into traitors and scumbags

[ravenmoon]

Lor'themar betraying sylvanas is absolutely within character, the problem is his motivation which is entirely out of character, Baine is the heart of the horde hur dur is not something Lor'themar usually bases his decisions on and it shows.

Jaina being there is the mistake - if humans were a minor race on the alliance, like some npc race, who'd you think would have shown up in Naz'jatar?

[derpkitteh]

Blood Elf betrayal? Elves being mercurial and self-interested? /pikachuface

You're telling me the same group that betrayed the Alliance to join their mortal enemies, then betrayed the Kirin Tor and helped Garrosh get his hands on an artifact for murderous purposes betrayed someone!?

the alliance betrayed them.

then betrayed them again.

and again.

and no, op, it's not being a "scumbag" to turn on the bitch that literally just did the exact same thing to another race of elves that was done to your own people.

[Wyrt]

So, blood elves are exactly what they've always been then?

[Shakana]

Saurfang is teh one who planned and orchestrated the campaign crossing Ashenvale into Darkshore, split forces to flank from Felwood and basically take everything up to the coast.

He did this because he was convinced by Sylvanas that fighting would be inevitable and in reality he wanted a good fight and maybe a chance to get his honorable death.


The rogues taking out guards with poison? He recruited all the rogues and relayed the plan to them. Sylvanas really just convinced the most influential orc that a war would be a good idea and he ran with it while she sat back and looked important and shout warchief type shit... then things went sideways when Saurfang backed out of his war objective and let Malfurion leave.

Unfortunely he didnt got a good fight neither a honorable death :/

[Zandalariprelate]

It wasn't exactly public knowledge. He only told the player as far as I'm aware. Sylvanas somehow found out too.

Did she? I haven't seen any mention from Sylvanas about this, in fact I think the whole thing isn't even mentioned in the horde side besides of the Purge of Dalaran questline.

I still think the Sin'dorei won't care any faction change as long the guy at charge is someone with a brain which currently there isn't anyone available

[Aeula]

Did she? I haven't seen any mention from Sylvanas about this, in fact I think the whole thing isn't even mentioned in the horde side besides of the Purge of Dalaran questline.

I still think the Sin'dorei won't care any faction change as long the guy at charge is someone with a brain which currently there isn't anyone available

Nathanos mentions it not being the first time Lor’themar as contemplated treason in 8.2. Presumably Sylvanas knows too. Probably thanks to spies.

[Aeula]

Also to all those accusing the Blood Elves of betraying the Alliance, they haven’t been part of it since the second war and many members of that original Alliance (The people of Lordaeron) were Horde when they joined.

- - - Updated - - -

I would assume at lest Rommath, Halduron and Liadrin would have know about his negotiations back in MoP.

We’ve seen nothing to suggest that so far. Rommath in particular displayed quite a bit of pre-existing hatred towards the Alliance during the 5.1 campaign, I can’t see him being okay with it.

[InTheEnd]

Gotta love these Garrosh/Sylvanas fans: they love the Horde when it's at its most Authoritarian/Tyrannical and want to punish anybody who speaks out against irrationality.

[GetCrunk]

Gotta love these Garrosh/Sylvanas fans: they love the Horde when it's at its most Authoritarian/Tyrannical and want to punish anybody who speaks out against irrationality.

Just GOOGLE what Warchief stands, before you jump and speak like 90% of the people here who do not know shit about the title of Warchief

The Warchief of the Horde stands as the undisputed leader. The warchief holds dominion over the entire Horde. The warchief maintains the Horde, has the power to declare war for the entire Horde, take any precaution to ensure the stability and security of the Horde's member states, and has the final say in the induction of new Horde members.

All members of the Horde have to swear a blood oath to join the Horde and are thus obligated to follow the warchief's commands and support the warchief in times of war if the warchief calls upon them for aid.

[cparle87]

Her morals are fine as far as they are concerned. Especially considering they didn't much change over time. But her morals weren't a problem when she was HELPING them clear their lands of the undead that were eating them. Her morals were fine when she was vouching for them to join the Horde superpower. And while Sylvanas was sending aid the Alliance were sending saboteurs.

In fact it's kind of amusing that Lor'themar should get a moral crisis right after she bust the Alliance.

So please, point me out to the infallible logic which dictates to join the guy who tried to harm you several times not only over, but against the guy who has helped you several times and never harmed you.

Oh yeah, that's the "I REALLY HATE SYLVANAS" logic.

Did you ever read the short story "In the Shadow of the Sun"? Where Sylvanas literally uses extortion to force Lor'themar to dedicate resources to fight against the Lich King? Resources they didn't have as the Sunwell raid had happened mere weeks before and they were still mopping up? Where she basically told him "Give me everything your country has so I can get my revenge on Arthas, or you can say goodbye to any support from both my people and the rest of the Horde?"

Yeah, Sylvanas' morals are totally fine.

[mysticx]

Just GOOGLE what Warchief stands, before you jump and speak like 90% of the people here who do not know shit about what the title of Warchief

Maybe, juuuuust maybe, the whole "Warchief"-idea is a hold-over from an earlier, simpler time, when what they called "the Horde" was mostly one race, with a singular interest in battle and conquest, and as such it doesn't fit the new reality of a "Horde" consisting of different races with different ideals, ambitions, histories and so on...

Not to mention the “Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely”-adage which seems almost invented for Horde warchiefs, of course.

[Icoblablubb]

just another Sylvanas fanboi thread where the OP can't accept any other opinions everyone who is against Sylvanas = wtf get out of here traitor scum lululu

[GetCrunk]

Maybe, juuuuust maybe, the whole "Warchief"-idea is a hold-over from an earlier, simpler time, when what they called "the Horde" was mostly one race, with a singular interest in battle and conquest, and as such it doesn't fit the new reality of a "Horde" consisting of different races with different ideals, ambitions, histories and so on...

Not to mention the “Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely”-adage which seems almost invented for Horde warchiefs, of course.

Why it has to change because you don't like how the Warchief leads the Horde ? Is simple the Horde has in place a system is called Mak'gora.

The Horde that Thrall founded is not about conquests is that the races in the Horde to never be slaves and Baine ideology stands exactly for the Horde to become slaves to the Alliance

[Super Dickmann]

Maybe, juuuuust maybe, the whole "Warchief"-idea is a hold-over from an earlier, simpler time, when what they called "the Horde" was mostly one race, with a singular interest in battle and conquest, and as such it doesn't fit the new reality of a "Horde" consisting of different races with different ideals, ambitions, histories and so on...

"Thanks for ensuring we don't go extinct after we were almost wiped out by murlocs/centaurs/undead, we swear ourselves to your existing system. Oh, by the way, please change everything about yourselves and continue carrying our useless asses or we'll rebel. We the Horde now."
t. tauren, Darkspear, blood elves. Twice.

[Arrashi]

I really hope that after BFA is done, lady jaina and our spiritual liege will deliver lecture in silvermoon on what it truly means to be a blood elf.

[mysticx]

"Thanks for ensuring we don't go extinct after we were almost wiped out by murlocs/centaurs/undead, we swear ourselves to your existing system. Oh, by the way, please change everything about yourselves and continue carrying our useless asses or we'll rebel. We the Horde now."
t. tauren, Darkspear, blood elves. Twice.

Well, the Horde is at its second warchief on the verge of YOLO-ing the whole Horde off a metaphorical cliff for some megalomaniacal grand scheme of dominance, that might give people pause for thought, maybe giving one person all the power is a bit of a risky strategy?

[InTheEnd]

Just GOOGLE what Warchief stands, before you jump and speak like 90% of the people here who do not know shit about the title of Warchief

The key problem with your "Warchief is a god who cannot be disobeyed" attitude is that it can lead to the slaughter of innocents (burning of Teldrasil) which goes against everything Thrall (the original Warchief of the New Horde) stood for. If you want to lead a pack of mindless blood-lusty idiots then form an Iron Horde or something, but it's not the nature of the New Horde so we don't want Garrosh/Sylvanas leaders anymore.

[Super Dickmann]

Well, the Horde is at its second warchief on the verge of YOLO-ing the whole Horde off a metaphorical cliff for some megalomaniacal grand scheme of dominance, that might give people pause for thought, maybe giving one person all the power is a bit of a risky strategy?

The Horde only looks like a worse system than an absolute monarchy where the leader has basically all the same rights because no one uses the checks and balances. Nobody challenged Garrosh and now Sylvanas to Mak'gora, they leapt directly to armed uprising in the middle of war. The issue is with the writing staff, not one of the last remnants of the Horde's identity as an organisation. If they want to make you evil, they will.

@InTheEnd

The New Horde is a meaningless meme. It didn't spring from the aether fully formed, different from the Horde as it was prior and with a separate demography or organisation. There's direct continuity between Orgrim Doomhammer and Thrall, as Orgrim gave the position to Thrall. Even what Thrall was doing and what he intended to do were just Orgrim's plans. At no point did the Horde stop being an absolute dictatorship, Thrall just used said power in a fashion that was more agreeable to modern sensibilities.

[Theoris]

Also to all those accusing the Blood Elves of betraying the Alliance, they haven’t been part of it since the second war and many members of that original Alliance (The people of Lordaeron) were Horde when they joined.

It's almost as if people are too biased to simply look up how things actually went.

[InTheEnd]

The New Horde is a meaningless meme. It didn't spring from the aether fully formed, different from the Horde as it was prior and with a separate demography or organisation. There's direct continuity between Orgrim Doomhammer and Thrall, as Orgrim gave the position to Thrall. Even what Thrall was doing and what he intended to do were just Orgrim's plans. At no point did the Horde stop being an absolute dictatorship, Thrall just used said power in a fashion that was more agreeable to modern sensibilities.

The issue isn't exclusively that the title of Warchief is a dictatorship. It's if one who is mentally unfit to lead the Horde should have the sole power to lead it unchallenged. Both Garrosh and now Sylvanas are unfit for the role.

If the Warchief's rule could not be challenged, there would be no provision for a Mak'gora. Why do you think the Mak'gora exists? Because the one making the challenge believes the current Warchief has lost his way. Technically, somebody should challenge Sylvanas to one, but we all know she has no honor and would cheat by probably using poisoned arrows anyway. So the only way to take her down is a rebellion.