So many spec's left out of Mythic plus

[Garymorilix]

As said at the start:

- If you accept WoW is or has become a meta-comp of the week kind of game (think Leauge of Legends) and enjoy that, then you have no problem.

Exactly this. It's not like WoW has never been like this. Even in vanilla it was like: only tank is warr, every hybrid is a healer etc. It's not a new concept, yet people seem to forget this, even the big vanilla fanboys.
I attribute that to players being more 'casual' in the past, so they didn't care so much.
Nowadays the situation is pretty balanced. There are very strong specs based on current encounter+class design, but you are not forced to do it that way. Unlike you were forced to tank as a warrior only back then. The difference between classes are minimal relatively to what it had been in the past.

This should be a relatively easy concept to grasp for someone who plays class-based online games.

[Trend]

It feels like the majority of people who actually care about spec diversity in 20+ keys are people with sub 1k io scores and blame their spec as to why they can't get in +15 pugs.

So after you have been proven wrong you change the goalposts to say that the imbalance does not matter because people are pointing it out for the wrong reasons. Got it.

You have no way to know what my r.io score is nor do you know the scores of the other people saying that it is sad that balance is as bad as it is right now. Neither do you know what specs I'm playing, which would be required to know whether or not your theory holds any weight.

Some people don't care about truth, they just want to argue. When I used the word "contrarian" I was talking about you. Thanks for playing.

[Garymorilix]

So after you have been proven wrong you change the goalposts to say that the imbalance does not matter because people are pointing it out for the wrong reasons. Got it.

You have no way to know what my r.io score is nor do you know the scores of the other people saying that it is sad that balance is as bad as it is right now. Neither do you know what specs I'm playing, which would be required to know whether or not your theory holds any weight.

Some people don't care about truth, they just want to argue. When I used the word "contrarian" I was talking about you. Thanks for playing.

Well, once a guy was enraged about raider.io being an unfair "gateway" for him, cuz he couldn't get into +12 groups, then it turned out he didn't even have any score, he was just like "but I could do it, why doesn't anyone believe me".

In another thread I argued a guy about world quests, turned out he doesn't even play the game and has no idea what he's talking about.

It's mmo-champ forums. I consider everyone who whines about raider.io to either a) don't have any score b) don't even play the game.
I think that you don't have any relevant r.io score based on your comment about "but you dont know others scores who post here". That's the more likely situation. Feel free to prove me wrong, links are easy.

On topic: It actually is pretty dumb that people who don't even do 10-15 keys regurarly whine about 20+ meta comps. I mean, I won't tell NBA players how to basketball either.

[Sithalos]

specs that have their AoE damage capped 4-6 targets.

I don't understand why this is a thing, ever.

[Trend]

Well, once a guy was enraged about raider.io being an unfair "gateway" for him, cuz he couldn't get into +12 groups, then it turned out he didn't even have any score, he was just like "but I could do it, why doesn't anyone believe me".

In another thread I argued a guy about world quests, turned out he doesn't even play the game and has no idea what he's talking about.

It's mmo-champ forums. I consider everyone who whines about raider.io to either a) don't have any score b) don't even play the game.
I think that you don't have any relevant r.io score based on your comment about "but you dont know others scores who post here". That's the more likely situation. Feel free to prove me wrong, links are easy.

On topic: It actually is pretty dumb that people who don't even do 10-15 keys regurarly whine about 20+ meta comps. I mean, I won't tell NBA players how to basketball either.

The thing is ... that's not even what the discussion was about. Balance is shit. It is. Go see my other post to see the numbers. I think that's sad that a number of specs are so inferior at mythic+. Personally I get in the groups I want to do because I mostly run with friends and I have specs that PUG's look for anyway. That's not what this thread is about. Your "on topic" isn't on topic. If you look at my post history you will see many criticisms of people crying about not getting into groups. But that's not what this thread is about. We are only on this topic because people said wrong shit and tried to change the subject when the numbers proved they are wrong.

What you're saying is just so dumb. Find one post I've ever made about not being able to get in groups. And then do something to logically negate how extremely out of whack the participation numbers are. Do you even read or do you just pop in, get a general impression and then spout off? Or are you just so simple minded that in your world everyone who says that it's sad to see a lack of balance is complaining about how it affects them personally?

[Slainie]

As some one sitting on 1600~ IO, basically doing my weekly m+ and then mythic raiding, I dont feel this as bad as some of you do, I got every healer at 120 at 410+ and i can safely say that my druid, even though its my lowest geared char, has the easiest time getting a group.

Simply because of the utility, previous posters have mentioned the strength of rouges/warriors/demonhunters, it tends to be up to the healer to fill the role of CR/Decurse/Soothe, not to mention leather stacking.

Many people have made a, what I would say a correct comparision between mobas and competetive dungeons, I mean you draft your team, you select your items and off you go.

But creators of moba's understand the dangers of a stale meta, even though as some people mentioned, that even in a balanced game people will always pick what ever has the slightest edge, how ever competetive mobas have countered this by, having picks that are direct counters to the opposing team aswell as the ability to ban certain picks from the enemy.

MDI, has no counter play, you face the same enemies that wont adapt to what you bring, It's possible that MDI could take advantage of a draft and a ban stage, that would force the captains of the team to get creative to bring the best possible synergies of what they have available.

The primary focus of an e-sport is to get people engaged with your game if the meta becomes stale and extremly small, it can have the opposite effect.

[Garymorilix]

The thing is ... that's not even what the discussion was about. Balance is shit.

I know it's not what the discussion is about, I shared my personal experience about ppl who claim stuff on mmo-champ. You didn't change that experience.

Balance is not shit. In fact, it's the closest it's ever been. Actual class outputs are at a 10% variance. Representation might not be, but that doesn't mean that classes are not balanced. If one dps does 3% more dps in a situation (like reaping), pros will pick the 3% better one. Then everyone else will think that the 3% worse one is "shit and useless" which is a very harsh overstatement.
You can play literally any spec and get away with it. Will you beat top performing classes 20+? Not necessarily. Does that mean there's no balance? Not necessarily.

Dps/hps and parses and whatever are nice numbers, but unfortunately for you, WoW is not all about who does the most damage or heal. How do they do it, how easy is it for them to do it, what encounter types / damage pattern does instances use, how frequently do those change, what are the mechanics, is it easier for melee/ranged etc. Majority of these variables can't be measured, just experienced. That's how sub rogues went from average to must-have in 8.0. That's why frost mages were also very sought after in 8.0. Not for their damage.

You don't have to be so defensive about yourself, I don't care as long as you don't pretend to "represent" some group of players you are not even part of. For example people who do 20+ keys.

[prwraith]

If you care about doing anything more than a +10 you're really better off playing something like diablo. There's no point.

And any class can do a +10 mythic lol.

[Trend]

No, my message was directed at you. My discussions I've had with previous users is irrelevant.

So you said "It feels like the majority of people who actually care about spec diversity in 20+ keys are people with sub 1k io scores and blame their spec as to why they can't get in +15 pugs." And now you are saying that was directed towards me. Sure thing champ.
a) You don't know my score.
b) I generally don't PUG at all and never on my main.
c) As such I wasn't even thinking about invites, rather participation, which is what I talked about. My friends and i play together, the invite is irrelevant. The participation is relevant: we are all more likely to play specs that are more fun and more likely to make the run go more smoothly (often one in the same.)
d) My discussion was around +10's because some people here have a conniption if you talk about anything higher than a 10.

In short, nothing you said had anything to do with me or what I said or what I think. You would have to work hard to have comments less relevant to reality than yours.

Like I said, some people are just contrarian children who just want to argue. Funny how none of the children even say one word about the objective numbers. Obviously you're just butthurt because you said something stupid and I corrected you. Better luck next time.

[Poe]

So you said "It feels like the majority of people who actually care about spec diversity in 20+ keys are people with sub 1k io scores and blame their spec as to why they can't get in +15 pugs." And now you are saying that was directed towards me. Sure thing champ.
a) You don't know my score.
b) I generally don't PUG at all and never on my main.
c) As such I wasn't even thinking about invites, rather participation, which is what I talked about. My friends and i play together, the invite is irrelevant. The participation is relevant: we are all more likely to play specs that are more fun and more likely to make the run go more smoothly (often one in the same.)
d) My discussion was around +10's because some people here have a conniption if you talk about anything higher than a 10.

In short, nothing you said had anything to do with me or what I said or what I think. You would have to work hard to have comments less relevant to reality than yours.

Like I said, some people are just contrarian children who just want to argue. Funny how none of the children even say one word about the objective numbers. Obviously you're just butthurt because you said something stupid and I corrected you. Better luck next time.

You're commenting on a previous discussion that didn't involve you. People who are actually doing 10-15 keys aren't the ones crying and whining on the forums that their spec isn't being represented on +25 keys.

[Trend]

Balance is not shit. In fact, it's the closest it's ever been.

As I said, at +10 the participation of the top 8 dps specs is at 67% and the bottom 8 is at 7%. If you don't see a problem or you think that the balance is relatively good right now I honestly don't care what you think about anything. I am guessing that you probably haven't run anything higher than a +4.

You don't have to be so defensive about yourself, I don't care as long as you don't pretend to "represent" some group of players you are not even part of. For example people who do 20+ keys.

I could link you something that may or may not be my character. You would have no way of knowing. But I don't care what you think I've done. I don't try to prove things to children on the internet. I specifically talked about objective data on +10's and never even said anything about 20's except much earlier in the thread when someone said you could run 20's no problem on any spec. And my response was based off objective data in that post, I did not say one word about my history. If you disagree with the objective data you could respond to that. But you won't because the data says you are wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

You're commenting on a previous discussion that didn't involve you. People who are actually doing 10-15 keys aren't the ones crying and whining on the forums that their spec isn't being represented on +25 keys.

So when you said your message was directed towards me you mean it had nothing to do with me. Ok, got it. Time to move on.

[Poe]

As I said, at +10 the participation of the top 8 dps specs is at 67% and the bottom 8 is at 7%. If you don't see a problem or you think that the balance is relatively good right now I honestly don't care what you think about anything. I am guessing that you probably haven't run anything higher than a +4.



I could link you something that may or may not be my character. You would have no way of knowing. But I don't care what you think I've done. I don't try to prove things to children on the internet. I specifically talked about objective data on +10's and never even said anything about 20's except much earlier in the thread when someone said you could run 20's no problem on any spec. And my response was based off objective data in that post, I did not say one word about my history. If you disagree with the objective data you could respond to that. But you won't because the data says you are wrong.

- - - Updated - - -



So when you said your message was directed towards me you mean it had nothing to do with me. Ok, got it. Time to move on.

You're not making much sense at this point.

[Garymorilix]

As I said, at +10 the participation of the top 8 dps specs is at 67% and the bottom 8 is at 7%. If you don't see a problem or you think that the balance is relatively good right now I honestly don't care what you think about anything. I am guessing that you probably haven't run anything higher than a +4.



I could link you something that may or may not be my character. You would have no way of knowing. But I don't care what you think I've done. I don't try to prove things to children on the internet. I specifically talked about objective data on +10's and never even said anything about 20's except much earlier in the thread when someone said you could run 20's no problem on any spec. And my response was based off objective data in that post, I did not say one word about my history. If you disagree with the objective data you could respond to that. But you won't because the data says you are wrong.

Participation has nothing to do with balance in the context of WoW mythic plus runs, as unlike a MOBA like LoL where you can play whatever every-other match, most players don't run multiple characters to choose from, and even if they do, they are not equally geared.
This means that those who take mythic plus seriously choose the "op" classes and stick with them. This does not prove that other classes are 60% worse than those, and to claim that is to be totally ignorant at reading statistics. You basically disregard the "why" of the data. Some feminist "economists" have done that recently and they weren't right either.

I play a guardian druid, outlaw rogue and survival hunter. You would say that 2 out of 3 of those are useless. Yet I manage. I don't aspire to be a 20+ mythic plus god. If I did, I would accept the fact that I should play classes that can handle that difficulty easier. That's a compromise made by pro players in every game, and it is usually not what the rest of the game is balanced around.

[Erolian]

Participation has nothing to do with balance in the context of WoW mythic plus runs, as unlike a MOBA like LoL where you can play whatever every-other match, most players don't run multiple characters to choose from, and even if they do, they are not equally geared.
This means that those who take mythic plus seriously choose the "op" classes and stick with them. This does not prove that other classes are 60% worse than those, and to claim that is to be totally ignorant at reading statistics. You basically disregard the "why" of the data. Some feminist "economists" have done that recently and they weren't right either.

I play a guardian druid, outlaw rogue and survival hunter. You would say that 2 out of 3 of those are useless. Yet I manage. I don't aspire to be a 20+ mythic plus god. If I did, I would accept the fact that I should play classes that can handle that difficulty easier. That's a compromise made by pro players in every game, and it is usually not what the rest of the game is balanced around.

I think the bottom line is that while people accept and even expect a certain level of unbalanced class design in WoW they're currently unhappy with how large the disparity is and how slow the balancing is occurring if it even happens to begin with. Nobody expects everything to be perfect or total homogenization. They just expect a better effort from Blizzard in part because they've done better than this before and also because its just painfully obvious that the effort isn't really being made. People expected hotfixes but they get blue posts about changes months away. People are playing the game right now and while redesigns are welcome temporary measures to make it better as of now are needed more than we've been getting them. There really isn't a justification for letting some specs sit and rot

[Garymorilix]

I think the bottom line is that while people accept and even expect a certain level of unbalanced class design in WoW they're currently unhappy with how large the disparity is and how slow the balancing is occurring if it even happens to begin with. Nobody expects everything to be perfect or total homogenization. They just expect a better effort from Blizzard in part because they've done better than this before and also because its just painfully obvious that the effort isn't really being made. People expected hotfixes but they get blue posts about changes months away. People are playing the game right now and while redesigns are welcome temporary measures to make it better as of now are needed more than we've been getting them. There really isn't a justification for letting some specs sit and rot

While I don't accept the basis of your argument (specs sitting and rotting), this is actually a pretty good argument I could get behind.
However a still think that even if Blizz managed to adjust specs monthly/weekly whatever, it wouldn't solve the core issue which is players' perception of what is OP. For example if we buffed elemental shaman damage to the point where they make runs faster than shrouding packs then we didn't fix the problem, we just flipped sides.
You could say that "well okay then, just change it next week" but then it comes back to the issue that this is not a MOBA or Overwatch, most people can't simply switch characters on a weekly basis. And while yes, classes are not balanced right now, but that imbalance is by design, and even with that no class is so extremely underperforming that we need to adapt this type of "weekly change" system. Else we could also arrive at a very serious power creep situation too.

But I respect your argument, and I would certainly be interested in how a more frequent balance cycle would work out.

[Nitros14]

it should be a class based buff not spec based. all 3 rogue specs have shoud, all 3 mage and hunter specs should have that cloak aswell.

And I think all melee dps specs should have some form of aoe stun. shockwave to all warriors is mandatory or warrior dps and retri paladins will always be on back foot.

Disagree with that level of homogenization. What should happen is a nerf to all aoe stuns if they're mandatory, increased cooldown and lower duration.

[dotsown]

The balance is terrible, its such common knowledge, going from disc priest to rdruid was a complete joke, I couldn't even find anything I missed about my priest except mass dispel when Im on my druid the kit is just infinitely better. Anyone thinking ''oh I see this guardian druid at 3500, oh I see this disc at 3500 BALANCE IS FINE L2P'' is a wild mongrel. I mean these people are extremely talented and having people cater to them (obviously) that would do better with meta classes.

[Jastall]

Indeed. I have started to develop a similar approach. Untill the playerbase fights back against the token; Prot War - Rogue - Resto Druid - DH meta, Blizzard will just assume that you're only serious about m+ post 20 keys if you play one of these classes.

Blizzard need to massively rethink the "just amp up mob/boss health and damage." We can do better than that, allow all classes to bring something unique. At least design some dungeons around at least 1-2 classes so everyone has their niche. You could have one dungeon where a Mage can spell steal a crazy buff that benefits the group, another where a Hunter can tame a unique pet for the dungeon that interacts with the group somehow. Maybe an alter that only a Priest or Paladin can interact with to unlock something interesting.

Mythic+ is genuinely a good thing but unless it evolves away from just scaling damage and health, and always favouring the current meta and rendering 90% of the roster worthless, it will alienate people and turn people away.

But then you're just encouraging people having an army of alts and some classes/specs being virtually locked out of some dungeons. Even ignoring that Rogues are OP in dungeons, just try to get invited to Tol Dagor as melee DPS when Rogues are considered an auto-include, and that's with a class ability that can be replicated via profession tools.

Damage comes and goes, IMO it's not a major problem. Utility is the problem, because some classes and specs have it all for dungeons (Rogues, DHs, Druids to a lesser extent) while others bring close to jack shit. Balance utility, make mass CC more widely available, make Shroud available on more classes, give actually unique shit to classes like Shaman and Warriors, and while the balance will never be perfect it should at least help a bit.

[Trustworthy]

As mentioned before in this thread: Class balance issues do trickle down and it affects a lot more people than just the 1%.
I've been in groups for 10 keys in which I've felt we should not have timed the key due to multiple deaths and ninja-pulling, yet we did time it only because we had a rogue shroud saving 5 minutes on the timer.

Honest question to the people who feel balance is fine: Does it feel right so much power is in the hands of one class with already great damage now coupled with the best utility in M+?

Don't understand me wrong, I don't want Rogues nerfed - I'd rather see buffs to the utility items replacing these buffs. Invisibility potions should grant a massive speed buff if they want to keep the long shared cd on potions and the engineering battle ress should have the melee range requirement removed. How is it fair that drums are 85% as good as Hero but the alternatives for Bres and Shroud are completely lackluster?

[Poe]

But then you're just encouraging people having an army of alts and some classes/specs being virtually locked out of some dungeons. .

What class/spec is locked out of any dungeon ?