So many spec's left out of Mythic plus

[Khain]

Lol'd at people saying you can complete 20-22 with any spec. Sure if you're one of the top 3k+ players with at least 4 other top players playing the best classes you might be able to time a 22 with a survival hunter or some other shitty spec.

I really wanna see a DH tank, affliction, survival, arms, disc party walking into a 20 KR.

[Koor]

Ermh, this is a non argument.

I never said invis potion was as good as shroud. And by the way, any ability usage does break shroud outside of movement abilities. I don't know what abilities you wanna use during shrouding anyways, the whole point is that you just run. Mage blink is an utterly dumb argument, cuz mages have their own invis spell in the first place.
Scrolls of whatever buffs are not better than any class buffs. Engi CR is not better than class CR. Drums are not as good as BL. These are there to fill the gaps if your group lacks one or the other. No one can claim that any of these are not objectively worse than the real stuff. But that's not the point. Use what you have, you won't feel more accomplished by trying to take away something you don't have from someone else. That's just sad.

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"Level 20 and up" are a pretty small percentage of players. These are the comps that actually require you to use the best-of-the-best.

This graph does not disprove the comment you replied to. His whole point was that even if one class was 1% better than another one, the pros would still only pick that 1% better class. This literally just proves his point.

No it doesn't. Yeah, the very top may take the better class if it's only 1%, but the very top is now +24, +25, not +20.

There is no reason for the top 30 having 27 out of 30 teams done with resto druids, and no resto shaman to be found even in the top 2000 (I stopped scrolling trying to find one), other than bad blizzard balancing.

Maybe they can't reach perfect balance, OK, but they should at least *try* to reduce the gap with constant stream of hotfixes, like they used to do in past expansions. In BFA they just don't care.

[Orwell7]

Lol'd at people saying you can complete 20-22 with any spec. Sure if you're one of the top 3k+ players with at least 4 other top players playing the best classes you might be able to time a 22 with a survival hunter or some other shitty spec.

I really wanna see a DH tank, affliction, survival, arms, disc party walking into a 20 KR.

Yes yes!
They should do a workshop-like thing where there are 2 teams: devs and some pros. Then, give them a "meta" comp and an absolutely horrendous one.
Then they should collide ideas and make the DISCUSSION happen.

Bc right now, the devs think the players are incompentent fools, and vice versa.
We need a good player-dev balance and everything will be alright.

[Daan]

Anyone thinking ''oh I see this guardian druid at 3500, oh I see this disc at 3500 BALANCE IS FINE L2P'' is a wild mongrel. I mean these people are extremely talented and having people cater to them (obviously) that would do better with meta classes.

This! Just because only a very, very few people have a high rio score with an anti-meta spec, it doesn't mean that the balance is fine and everyone can do it easily.

[ravanaa112]

cuz mythic + is not fun.

[Nitros14]

cuz mythic + is not fun.

I think the timer ruins it for tons of people who liked stuff like BC and Cataclysm heroics.

[ravanaa112]

I think the timer ruins it for tons of people who liked stuff like BC and Cataclysm heroics.

i dont even necessarily think its that i think its just they took the value of challenge mode from MoP POSSIBLY the one good thing MoP provided and ruined it.. M+ isnt as rewarding as MoP challenge modes were..when u got your class gear sets or the mounts you felt accomplished and kind of like "wow i cant wait to see the rewards next season" now its just "oh yay i got another azerite piece i cant use..great."

[Chillside]

This! Just because only a very, very few people have a high rio score with an anti-meta spec, it doesn't mean that the balance is fine and everyone can do it easily.

it doesn't mean that those players with high rio score with anti-meta spec are better than others either, vast majority of players who play a non mainstream class just don't get invited so they don't even get to try and check their limits

[Trumpcat]

Class balance is leagues behind the tuning in Legion. There has always been imbalance, but what we are currently seeing is just painfully huge differences.

In BfA classes are not only dull but almost at vanilla levels of disparity in performance.

Of all the things development was weak on this expansion class design is for me the worst.

[ID811717]

This! Just because only a very, very few people have a high rio score with an anti-meta spec, it doesn't mean that the balance is fine and everyone can do it easily.

But it does not mean that the balance is horrible either. It's hard to make any conclusions in either way, if you're merely going off the scores and ranks.

Say, a lot of competitive M+ healers rerolled into resto druids this season, and if you look at the rankings it would seem every other healer spec is unplayable. That hides the actual power dynamic among healer specs. There's a complex story to tell, but only some healer specs are not viable for high keys.

One of the big reasons resto druids are over-represented is that they bring a CR. But is that a problem with healer balance, or is the actual problem that none of dk, warlock and druid (non-healer) specs are competitive in M+? It's all connected, and in some way we want Blizz to "fix the meta" in the general sense, not just fix a single role.

[Narzok]

What class/spec is locked out of any dungeon ?

the person you quoted replied to another person who brought up the idea of dungeons favoring certain classes by design.

imagine a dungeon where mages can spellsteal a pseudo-bloodlust for 80% of the time. no need to bring any other caster than mage.
in such a scenario, you would never see that dungeon on a high key as a balance druid, because everyone only takes mages.

[Barzotti]

Lol'd at people saying you can complete 20-22 with any spec. Sure if you're one of the top 3k+ players with at least 4 other top players playing the best classes you might be able to time a 22 with a survival hunter or some other shitty spec.

I really wanna see a DH tank, affliction, survival, arms, disc party walking into a 20 KR.

The number one DH tank (who did some +22 in time) runs his keys with a rdrood (normal), a BM hunter, a moonkin and a sub rogue. Not the worst specs, but far from being the best dps classes for M+.

https://raider.io/characters/kr/wind...n=season-bfa-2

the person you quoted replied to another person who brought up the idea of dungeons favoring certain classes by design.

imagine a dungeon where mages can spellsteal a pseudo-bloodlust for 80% of the time. no need to bring any other caster than mage.
in such a scenario, you would never see that dungeon on a high key as a balance druid, because everyone only takes mages.

So we are inventing stuff to make a point more valid nowadays?

[ID811717]

So we are inventing stuff to make a point more valid nowadays?

Why don't you click up the response chain and read? Someone proposed an idea how to improve class balance in M+, they did not try to prove any point in there.

[Barzotti]

Why don't you click up the response chain and read? Someone proposed an idea how to improve class balance in M+, they did not try to prove any point in there.

Why don't you read and realize that I was responding to the latter part of the post, a "imagine a dungeon where X" while it's a completely void argument?

[ID811717]

Why don't you read and realize that I was responding to the latter part of the post, a "imagine a dungeon where X" while it's a completely void argument?

Narzok cleared Poe's misunderstanding by explaining what was proposed by Reyuna, and what was the counter-argument by Jastall. Narzok's example seems to have been used for the purpose of better exposition of Jastall's argument (part of which caused the misunderstanding).

Narzok's primary role is that of a narrator. It is not clear to me whether it reflects their personal opinion. I do not see how providing this example makes Jastall's point more (or less) valid.

Also, which argument is void? Reyuna proposed a change to the game design, and Jastall raised an argument that it leads to bad game design. Both of them represent valid opinions.

[Barzotti]

Also, which argument is void? Reyuna proposed a change to the game design, and Jastall raised an argument that it leads to bad game design. Both of them represent valid opinions.

Narzok's argument, the one I was responding to ("imagine a dungeon where X"). Because you can't make up a non-existing example on live to really discuss class balance.

[Narzok]

Narzok's argument, the one I was responding to ("imagine a dungeon where X"). Because you can't make up a non-existing example on live to really discuss class balance.

if you bothered reading the first post that was quoted, that person proposed the same thing, i just shortened it.

"You could have one dungeon where a Mage can spell steal a crazy buff that benefits the group, another where a Hunter can tame a unique pet for the dungeon that interacts with the group somehow." was the example given by Reyuna,

to which Jastall responded:

"But then you're just encouraging people having an army of alts and some classes/specs being virtually locked out of some dungeons."

Poe then asked: "What class/spec is locked out of any dungeon?", which i interpreted as a comprehension mistake. so i offered a shortened version to repeat the core of the argument Reyuna and Jastall were discussing.

and regarding my opinion on class specific mechanics in dungeons: only if the "bad" group without said class still has a reasonably decent way of doing the dungeon.
it should not be "worst dungeon without, easiest with class x"

[Aesde]

The balance can’t be achieved.

We have more melee players in the game than range players, because melee are easier.
If range get aoe stuns and 14s interrupts, no one invites melee to key.

But stale meta also bad for the game. I see more and more players just reroll for fotm classes. I personally lvl my dh, to make 100k dps with one eye beam and cheese mechanics with blade dance.

But when I have to play an unfavorite class I burn out very quickly and drop the game.

It would be great if meta shifts every season.

[Barzotti]

if you bothered reading the first post that was quoted, that person proposed the same thing, i just shortened it.

"You could have one dungeon where a Mage can spell steal a crazy buff that benefits the group, another where a Hunter can tame a unique pet for the dungeon that interacts with the group somehow." was the example given by Reyuna,

to which Jastall responded:

"But then you're just encouraging people having an army of alts and some classes/specs being virtually locked out of some dungeons."

Poe then asked: "What class/spec is locked out of any dungeon?", which i interpreted as a comprehension mistake. so i offered a shortened version to repeat the core of the argument Reyuna and Jastall were discussing.

and regarding my opinion on class specific mechanics in dungeons: only if the "bad" group without said class still has a reasonably decent way of doing the dungeon.
it should not be "worst dungeon without, easiest with class x"

Oh, my bad then, sorry.

[Nitros14]

The balance can’t be achieved.

We have more melee players in the game than range players, because melee are easier.
If range get aoe stuns and 14s interrupts, no one invites melee to key.

But stale meta also bad for the game. I see more and more players just reroll for fotm classes. I personally lvl my dh, to make 100k dps with one eye beam and cheese mechanics with blade dance.

But when I have to play an unfavorite class I burn out very quickly and drop the game.

It would be great if meta shifts every season.

We have more melee because Blizzard has more melee specs, has only ever added more melee specs and even removed a ranged spec.