Game of Thrones meme explains BfA perfectly (spoilers)

[Super Dickmann]

One thing I'm a bit confused about.

Why did Saurfang and Sylvanas think killing Malfurion would break the night elves? Maybe if they got him AND Tyrande? But I always got the feeling it would have backfired and made a martyr instead. Especially if Tyrande was still alive. Ask Doomhammer how well killing Lothar worked out for him.

Not to meme too much, but the simplest answer is that they just didn't understand the night elves very well. We're shown this through the novellas with night elves, despite being outnumbered and outgunned fighting to the last, not just Malf, but common people as well. For Sylvanas it takes until Delaryn calls her out on it for it to click, whereas Saurfang doesn't consider it much because the Malfurion part wasn't mentioned to him and he only considered morale after the Burning.

It's the characters being wrong, but I don't find it too out of character or being the result of plot-induced stupidity. Though now that you mention it I'd have really liked for Saurfang to have brought up what happened in the battle at Blackrock to Sylvanas, would have been a nice shoutout and also have shown how she isn't in touch with the Horde's history. Mind, killing Malf would be beneficial, morale or not, simply because he basically stalled them singlehanded for a fair while and could break any occupation of Teldrassil on his own.

[RobertMugabe]

In the latest episode of Game of Thrones a main character suffered catastrophic losses after seemingly committing a major military blunder that could've been easily avoided. The showrunners David Benioff & D.B. Weiss (D&D) justified the bizarre narrative choice by saying:



Unfortunately it seems like WoW characters keep "kinda forgetting" things too.

• Sylvanas kind of forgot about her reason for the War of Thorns
• Saurfang kind of forgot why killing Malfurion was essential to the plan that he himself had made
• Anduin kind of forgot to bring gas masks to the Siege of Lordaeron
• The Zandalari kind of forgot to do routine maintenance on their ships and find the bombs
• Tyrande kind of forgot that she received a major power-up and could've easily killed Nathanos
• Night Elf "Dark Rangers" kind of forgot that it was the Horde that killed them
• Sylvanas kind of forgot to explain her true objective to her inner circle
• Baine kind of forgot that Mak'gora is the legitimate institute for challenging the Warchief
• Sylvanas kind of forgot that free will is the cornerstone of Forsaken society
• The player character kind of forgot that doing the Old Gods' bidding is a terrible idea

Good thing we have Steve "Dan"user and "Dave" Kosak as our own version of D&D a.k.a. Dumb & Dumber.

I can't believe that the lore can trigger you so hard. Stop fucking taking game lore so seriously and personal

[Sondrelk]

More characterization, I think we can both agree that Sylvanas isn't a particularly nice person.



Pretty clearly because they were defecting to an opposing monarch. It wasn't reconciliation that had her open fire by itself, she only gives the order to shoot once she's told that Calia is on the field. In any case though, this goes into a broader problem with this abhorrent novel and that's that it frames the separation between undead and living as being a minor misunderstanding that flawless paragons of light and morality like Calia and Anduin can easily resolve provided that the bad guy causing it, Sylvanas, is done away with.


This is emphatically not the case throughout the entire rest of the lore prior to the book. The Forsaken were not rejected because of Sylvanas, but firstly because they were undead, meaning they were abominations against their prevailing religion, secondly because their positive emotions and so forth were suppressed, making them hostile to one another and incapable of coexisting and finally due to the historical considerations that the undead had just destroyed tons of human kingdoms. It was a mutually hostile affair.

The Forsaken were not sadsacks that were yearning for a hug from a living human else they'd wither away into irrelevance, with Sylvanas abusing this. They were themselves a cruel, hardened people, who accepted some aspects of their prior lives - Lordaeron, natch, which Sylvanas never dismissed nor had any motive to as it was patriotic fervor that drove the Forsaken throughout the entirety of Cataclysm and that even gets brought up by the refugees in Orgrimmar now, but dismissed others, such as reconciliation with the living. This is because the living wanted to kill them and had a kill policy long before Sylvanas attacked Gilneas.

They were not wrong to do so, they were well-motivated in this, as the Forsaken were well-motivated to not want to be killed. But what it wasn't was a black and white affair where Anduin and humanity were paragons of goodness who could easily overcome their problems, Sylvanas was pure evil and the Forsaken were irredeemable sheep who just wanted to be buddies. It's an infantile story that ignores all prior history of the races, where if anything their membership of the Horde and constant atrocities would be grounds to hate the Forsaken more, not less, done solely to beef up one character at the expense of another, the overarching identity of the Forsaken be damned.



Her goal, spoiler alert, is to kill everyone in her capacity as an Old God puppet. Beyond running in contradiction to years of portrayal, it's that it runs counter to her current portrayal and the internal monologue which has zero mentions of this whatseover, has the Horde keep existing in her victory scenario and doesn't even show her as particularly enthusiastic about starting a war. She doesn't spare Baine or let him release Derek because it's part of some cunning plan, but because the loyalist route was a last minute addition to tide over players who recognized the same thing I'm talking about at the moment. It's not an intended element of the story. Sylvanas doesn't release Baine because there's some plan, the story is clearly that she planned to kill him, itself if successful the greatest favour she could do the Horde long-term and easily making her among the top three Warchiefs, but is foiled by the rebels and the Alliance working together to stop her.

Because of these alterations out of fan outcry, these elements of her behaviour make no sense, as they were never intended. Concurrently, the whole Derek plan needs to be gone through extensive mental gymnastics to make work and itself opens chasms worth of plot holes, such as why she doesn't just make him a mindslave if she has no issues with this, why all other undead have free will and go on to betray her and so forth. It is done because it's not really a character scene for Sylvanas, as she's irrelevant in her own villain-batting expansion, it's meant to set up the nu-Forsaken and to give Baine something to rebel over because they didn't fully realize what they'd done with Teldrassil until much later and how it looked for literally zero people in the Horde save Saurfang to give the least bit of a fuck.

If they were killed because they were defecting to an opposing monarch, that stills means they are defecting, and that reason is clearly because some of them want ot be with their families and friends. Ergo, Sylvanas sees that some Forsaken can achieve reconciliation with Humans.


Well, of course they were rejected because they were undead, i never claimed they weren't. My point is that over time Alliance would start to see them as a clearly separate entity from the scourge, which is the main reason they consider undead abominations. (at least the common people i would assume)
So over time they are first no longer considered "just scourge", still hated, but not for the original reasons. Then there is peacetime, in eastern plaguelands we see undead work with the Argent dawn to cleanse the area, so at least those that were there would understand Undead/Forsaken are not inherently evil. Over the years the fact that there are "nice" undead would spread, rumour first most likely, but over time some priest or paladin or something would come back from Hearthglen and talk about his buddy Forsaken McDead.
Most people would not consider Undead or Forsaken nice or even trustworthy, but neither did many americans with blacks before several reforms. And as the acceptance grew we eventually would have ended up at BtS, where a significant amount of Humans were willing ot meet with their Forsaken family.


Why Forsaken would be willing is slightly harder to put into words, but i will try.
We were once told that many Forsaken went insane, or gave up their earlier life, but some clearly didn't. They held on to some part of them, whether that was their name, or memorabilia form the past.
And this leads me to a plot point i considered years ago, eventually, as the Forsaken populace "matured" they would split into 2 distinct groups, those who considered themselves Lordaeron citizens turned Undead, and those who considered themselves Forsaken. Both would have no problem coexisting of course, but those who considered themselves the undead citizens of Lordaeron would probably start wondering what their family and friends were doing, despite their undead nature altering their mental state, they would still be altered humans, and humans like to figure stuff out and make sure their family is safe, so when the Desolate council reveals they are planning a day of letting Forsaken and Humans meet up, some would obviously want to go, if only to sate their curiosity.

Nothing about them wanting hugs and their choice to see or not see their old family is wrong of course, but some would want to try, even if just because the sample size is fairly sizeable.



I will concede that much of the problem with the story is definitely structural, the way it is told and their insistence on it being "fair", like destroying Undercity when it did nothing for either Alliance or Horde just so they would preempt the complaining of there being an unbalance in the amount of useless capital cities.
Another problem is definitely the choice to allow "choice" with Sylvanas' supporters, which is obviously going to hit a brick wall pretty hard, with the absolutely atrocious disregard it has for the possible outs that narrative path has.

Again, we don't know what Sylvanas' endgame is, maybe she is a pawn of N'zoth and he is toying with her for giggles, maybe she is a heroic figure similar to Lelouch from code geass, who wants to pin the entire world against her. Maybe Blizz is making it up as they go along and the ending is going to unceremoniously decide a conclusion is not worht the effort and insist we ignore her heinous acts and go back to the status quo.

We legitimately have no idea how the expansion will end, and unless someone has a loose-mouthed uncle or brother or sex-slave who works at Blizzards story department, i don't think anyone will until the final PTR is done updating he dialogue by the end.


To conclude, i don't want to give the impression that i think the story is masterfully written or that the eventual twist will change everything and make it the stirring drama i know in my heart of hearts it is. But i will defend it from people complaining her actions are illogical when we don't even know why she is doing it.

If anyone wants to complain about the story, i would much rather we shit on Baine and what a massive hypocrite he, and all the eventual leaders of the Horde rebellion is going to be considering all the chances they had to stop Sylvanas before things got this bad.

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Not to meme too much, but the simplest answer is that they just didn't understand the night elves very well. We're shown this through the novellas with night elves, despite being outnumbered and outgunned fighting to the last, not just Malf, but common people as well. For Sylvanas it takes until Delaryn calls her out on it for it to click, whereas Saurfang doesn't consider it much because the Malfurion part wasn't mentioned to him and he only considered morale after the Burning.

It's the characters being wrong, but I don't find it too out of character or being the result of plot-induced stupidity. Though now that you mention it I'd have really liked for Saurfang to have brought up what happened in the battle at Blackrock to Sylvanas, would have been a nice shoutout and also have shown how she isn't in touch with the Horde's history. Mind, killing Malf would be beneficial, morale or not, simply because he basically stalled them singlehanded for a fair while and could break any occupation of Teldrassil on his own.

You coudl always make the argument that she wanted to kill Malfurion to make her own descent into Arthas 2.0 more obvious, she clearly thinks destroying hope by burning Teldrassil is a good idea somehow, maybe she convinced herself killing him would create a regent-lord like Lorhtemar she could blackmail into joining the horde, anything is possible with BfA.

[Super Dickmann]

If anyone wants to complain about the story, i would much rather we shit on Baine and what a massive hypocrite he, and all the eventual leaders of the Horde rebellion is going to be considering all the chances they had to stop Sylvanas before things got this bad.

We can bond over it in the next Baine thread, the OP is the godfather of all of them.

You coudl always make the argument that she wanted to kill Malfurion to make her own descent into Arthas 2.0 more obvious, she clearly thinks destroying hope by burning Teldrassil is a good idea somehow, maybe she convinced herself killing him would create a regent-lord like Lorhtemar she could blackmail into joining the horde, anything is possible with BfA.

There are ample reasons to kill Malfurion. Not just to demoralize but because he's basically a demigod who was stalling the war effort singlehanded. Besides the ground of morale they mention. It's not so much her reasoning that's lacking, it's the whole sequence of him being spared that boggles the mind and exists solely because the writers were clearly unwilling to kill the character off in that moment and had written themselves into a corner.

And this leads me to a plot point i considered years ago, eventually, as the Forsaken populace "matured" they would split into 2 distinct groups, those who considered themselves Lordaeron citizens turned Undead, and those who considered themselves Forsaken. Both would have no problem coexisting of course, but those who considered themselves the undead citizens of Lordaeron would probably start wondering what their family and friends were doing, despite their undead nature altering their mental state, they would still be altered humans, and humans like to figure stuff out and make sure their family is safe, so when the Desolate council reveals they are planning a day of letting Forsaken and Humans meet up, some would obviously want to go, if only to sate their curiosity.

I've heard this brought up before, Shandalay is a real fan of this point, but I heavily disagree and without jumping to accusations, I think most of the people who occupy this position don't really play Forsaken. The identity as Lordaeronian and as undead are complementary. The Forsaken aren't against the living just because they're dicks, though they are, and they definitely aren't because they're tricked. It's all in the name. They are Forsaken. This idea of people reaching out to their loved ones is nothing new, that's literally the whole starting point of them - they reached out to their former allies and were rebuffed and hunted, because quite obviously, the idea that your family is now an abomination without a sense of empathy who's soul is damned who may or may not eat people doesn't engender sympathy. This is a constant through-line, repeated in Cataclysm with Voss and the Crusade and even in BFA with Zelling and his family and even in part Derek and his. Zelling wants to care and provide for them, but he can't be a part of their life anymore, because they hate what he's become and even Jaina tells Derek that there's no place for him in Kul Tiras anymore and he has to go to Calia to become just as bland and perfect as she is.

The Forsaken in Vanilla had largely internalized this mentality, which retroactively was also based on how Sylvanas viewed things - she only cared that Arthas be killed, and those behind her could all be sad for what she cared. But with Cataclysm and the Lich King's death, they decided that maybe they shouldn't just feel sorry for themselves all day and should embrace both their past - hence reconquering Lordaeron and the increase in the personality cult, new architecture, etc. as well as embrace undeath rather than hate themselves. They were no longer defined by being sadsacks the way they used to or the way they're shown in BTS and they aren't like Sira or Delaryn either - they embrace what they are.

Within this, you can have those who care more for Lordaeron or about being undead or even self-hating figures like Voss, altruistic ones like Zelling. But separating the Forsaken from the memory of Lordaeron and making the two be mutually exclusive and because of Sylvanas at that runs completely counter to what the Forsaken have been and how they've developed. Making their new leader the relative of the one who made them undead, who had experienced nothing of this and never had to, who has none of the troubles of undeath nor this journey, yet is presented as a flawlessly virtuous figure to bring them to the promised land is why Calia is reviled by the Forsaken and why BTS is an abysmal story for anyone who actually plays undead and has been following their story.

[lockybalboa]

Everything's turned to shit these days, drama quality, game quality, music quality, administration quality and the economy etc... FUCK THE 2010S

[Sondrelk]

We can bond over it in the next Baine thread, the OP is the godfather of all of them.


There are ample reasons to kill Malfurion. Not just to demoralize but because he's basically a demigod who was stalling the war effort singlehanded. Besides the ground of morale they mention. It's not so much her reasoning that's lacking, it's the whole sequence of him being spared that boggles the mind and exists solely because the writers were clearly unwilling to kill the character off in that moment and had written themselves into a corner.


I've heard this brought up before, Shandalay is a real fan of this point, but I heavily disagree and without jumping to accusations, I think most of the people who occupy this position don't really play Forsaken. The identity as Lordaeronian and as undead are complementary. The Forsaken aren't against the living just because they're dicks, though they are, and they definitely aren't because they're tricked. It's all in the name. They are Forsaken. This idea of people reaching out to their loved ones is nothing new, that's literally the whole starting point of them - they reached out to their former allies and were rebuffed and hunted, because quite obviously, the idea that your family is now an abomination without a sense of empathy who's soul is damned who may or may not eat people doesn't engender sympathy. This is a constant through-line, repeated in Cataclysm with Voss and the Crusade and even in BFA with Zelling and his family and even in part Derek and his. Zelling wants to care and provide for them, but he can't be a part of their life anymore, because they hate what he's become and even Jaina tells Derek that there's no place for him in Kul Tiras anymore and he has to go to Calia to become just as bland and perfect as she is.

The Forsaken in Vanilla had largely internalized this mentality, which retroactively was also based on how Sylvanas viewed things - she only cared that Arthas be killed, and those behind her could all be sad for what she cared. But with Cataclysm and the Lich King's death, they decided that maybe they shouldn't just feel sorry for themselves all day and should embrace both their past - hence reconquering Lordaeron and the increase in the personality cult, new architecture, etc. as well as embrace undeath rather than hate themselves. They were no longer defined by being sadsacks the way they used to or the way they're shown in BTS and they aren't like Sira or Delaryn either - they embrace what they are.

Within this, you can have those who care more for Lordaeron or about being undead or even self-hating figures like Voss, altruistic ones like Zelling. But separating the Forsaken from the memory of Lordaeron and making the two be mutually exclusive and because of Sylvanas at that runs completely counter to what the Forsaken have been and how they've developed. Making their new leader the relative of the one who made them undead, who had experienced nothing of this and never had to, who has none of the troubles of undeath nor this journey, yet is presented as a flawlessly virtuous figure to bring them to the promised land is why Calia is reviled by the Forsaken and why BTS is an abysmal story for anyone who actually plays undead and has been following their story.

Part of the reason i champion the Forsaken reconciliation storyline is because it is literally the only storyline that makes sense for the tone of Warcraft.
We can sit here and talk all day about the minor details of Forsaken culture and how they diverged from living humans decades ago, but the fact of hte matter is that as a story, Forsaken only has 2 endings. Especially if they do not intend ot live in Orgrimmar for the rest of their lives.

Either they never become accepted, the few that wanted reconciliation on either side in BtS decides it was a horrible idea, and when Forsaken die out they are not mourned by anyone except those who considered them abominations haunting them with their dead relatives skin.

Or they become accepted as rightful Lordaeron citizens leading to a peace where most humans just stop giving a shit at worst, until they are eventually cured or die out. (A semi-fanfic i once made had them living and thriving in the Plaguelands while working on whatever non-scourge related activities they want)


The first option, while interesting from an edge, Forsaken-are-cool standpoint, is also pretty depressing overall, and not really in a high-drama kind of way. Just generally depressing in a way that does not really gel with the rest of Warcrafts story.
The second option is the only one that allows both edgy forsaken and undead lordaeron citizens a way out where they have a story with a satisfying ending.

Personally i would also prefer to see the second option from a general story standpoint. Who wants however many expansions are left of Forsaken being miserable and rotting in Orgrimmar when you can have the stories of them trying to reestablish themselves in their homeland while attempting to dodge accusations of being just as evil as Sylvanas.

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I will also slightly disagree on Calia being a terrible leader for the Forsaken.
Sure, for those that want to complain how she is bland and Femduin, i can see how she is not really ideal in any way, but she is also pretty much perfect when it comes to the general consensus among Forsaken, they do seem to like the Menethil family given they have an entire memorial to Terenas that mentions thye don't hate the Menethil line, just Arthas.
She is also pretty relevant given the fact that she chose to be undead to feel a closer kinship with her countrymen.
All in all, i would not say she is a definite shoe-in for the Forsaken leadership, but depending on the ending to BfA, i could totally see her getting some development on meeting Forsaken and negotiating with Alliance on letting the Forsaken back to Lordaeron and from there naturally take a leadership role.

[Super Dickmann]

Part of the reason i champion the Forsaken reconciliation storyline is because it is literally the only storyline that makes sense for the tone of Warcraft.
We can sit here and talk all day about the minor details of Forsaken culture and how they diverged from living humans decades ago, but the fact of hte matter is that as a story, Forsaken only has 2 endings. Especially if they do not intend ot live in Orgrimmar for the rest of their lives.

Either they never become accepted, the few that wanted reconciliation on either side in BtS decides it was a horrible idea, and when Forsaken die out they are not mourned by anyone except those who considered them abominations haunting them with their dead relatives skin.

Or they become accepted as rightful Lordaeron citizens leading to a peace where most humans just stop giving a shit at worst, until they are eventually cured or die out. (A semi-fanfic i once made had them living and thriving in the Plaguelands while working on whatever non-scourge related activities they want)


The first option, while interesting from an edge, Forsaken-are-cool standpoint, is also pretty depressing overall, and not really in a high-drama kind of way. Just generally depressing in a way that does not really gel with the rest of Warcrafts story.
The second option is the only one that allows both edgy forsaken and undead lordaeron citizens a way out where they have a story with a satisfying ending.

Personally i would also prefer to see the second option from a general story standpoint. Who wants however many expansions are left of Forsaken being miserable and rotting in Orgrimmar when you can have the stories of them trying to reestablish themselves in their homeland while attempting to dodge accusations of being just as evil as Sylvanas.

Forsaken that are accepted by humans are not Forsaken by default and what you present is a complete false dichotomy, one championed by the atrocious book as well, that the only bonds the Forsaken can form are regressive ones from when they were alive, with an element of self-pity. This is far from the case. Firstly because a long-term ending is completely unnecessary. This is a long form narrative based around conflict and fighting. Humans and undead being buddies despite them having years of bad blood, being incompatible with one another in terms of values and biological ability, given that undead have limited empathy and so forth, is nice in a twee friendly sort of way, but it also busts the whole point of their race and results in less conflict, more homogenization and more boredom. It's undesirable for the core purpose of the game.

But that aside, what was already being built in Cataclysm and what's far more relevant since it's their actual faction is the Forsaken's bonds with the Horde, you know, their actual faction. The Horde already accepted them as undead into its ranks. From then on, you can build this in different directions. In the beta as I've mentioned a few times before, Eitrigg mentioned that the presence of a val'kyr is important to him, as she's a warrior spirit. And hell, wouldn't it be cool if the Forsaken's main means of reproduction and existence were also concerned with valor in battle, glory in death and were also spirits, coincidentally providing cultural touching points with the main race of the Horde that values all these things.

Instead of dumping the blood elves' connection with the Forsaken at the end of TBC and later making Sylvanas a caricature, lean into the Eastern Horde gimmick that started out their arrangement in the first place and Sylvanas' historic connection with the blood elves. Play up the mad science angle with goblins and the more self-pitying side with the tauren. None of this is impossible, none of this requires a perfect flowerchild who just so happens to be Arthas's sister to save the Forsaken from their sins and push them into the Light of the God-King, who clearly cares about more about them than their leader or the Horde. Nothing prevents the Forsaken from interacting more heavily with the Horde, in fact this has already been done in Cataclysm, both positively with the seadogs and Cromush and negatively with Drek'thar's reasonable contempt for them.

Re: Calia
No, Calia is a parody of the Forsaken. The sister of the person who killed all of them who lived in comfort while they all suffered and were hunted down, motivated by pure love for all that lives, connected with exclusively Alliance characters and with not a flaw to be seen. Not burdened by undeath, not even made ugly or losing her positivity or what have you, but voluntarily choosing to become undead in a perfect holy version, ditching the entire element that their source of contentment and support in life - their faith, was now painful to them. Calia is the death of everything the Forsaken have been for fifteen years. The cockroach vendor would be a better leader. Hell, a Darkspear situation where they have no leader and fall by the wayside is preferable to Calia. Sadly, she is a definite.

[formerShandalay]

<snip>

I've heard this brought up before, Shandalay is a real fan of this point, but I heavily disagree and without jumping to accusations, I think most of the people who occupy this position don't really play Forsaken. The identity as Lordaeronian and as undead are complementary. The Forsaken aren't against the living just because they're dicks, though they are, and they definitely aren't because they're tricked. It's all in the name.

<snip>

I only want to chime in on this shortly, just to clarify Yes, I am a great fan of seeing both sides of the Forsaken and championed the fact that some of them do want to re-connect with the living, because some people in other threads wrote that Before the Storm was the first time this happened and it is a re-writing of their racial history and that is just not true. We've seen it happen several times, although it is not really 'mainstream' among them.
And it shouldn't be either, because the Forsaken being at least somewhat bitter and looking for ways to make their own world fit for them is actually what the race should be about, in my opinion. Showing several ways of doing that is even better.

And we know they can't just walk into a town and settle beside hoomans, because the living actually feel instictively uncomfortable when around them. It seems to be the 'natural' way to feel around them and you can choose to ignore it and overcome it, but how many people would actually want to? I mean, after all people are simply people, even in Azeroth, and if something makes them uncomfortable and afraid, their first reaction isn't to overcome their fear, but to act upon it instinctively.

Also, you are right in so far that I don't mainly play Forsaken, I do play one and try and keep it up to date with everything and I like the race. But I'm not what you would call a 'Forsaken player' in a hardcore RP sense by any stretch of the imagination

[Sondrelk]

Forsaken that are accepted by humans are not Forsaken by default and what you present is a complete false dichotomy, one championed by the atrocious book as well, that the only bonds the Forsaken can form are regressive ones from when they were alive, with an element of self-pity. This is far from the case. Firstly because a long-term ending is completely unnecessary. This is a long form narrative based around conflict and fighting. Humans and undead being buddies despite them having years of bad blood, being incompatible with one another in terms of values and biological ability, given that undead have limited empathy and so forth, is nice in a twee friendly sort of way, but it also busts the whole point of their race and results in less conflict, more homogenization and more boredom. It's undesirable for the core purpose of the game.

But that aside, what was already being built in Cataclysm and what's far more relevant since it's their actual faction is the Forsaken's bonds with the Horde. The Horde already accepted them as undead into its ranks. From then on, you can build this in different directions. In the beta as I've mentioned a few times before, Eitrigg mentioned that the presence of a val'kyr is important to him, as she's a warrior spirit. And hell, wouldn't it be cool if the Forsaken's main means of reproduction and existence were also concerned with valor in battle, glory in death and were also spirits, coincidentally providing cultural touching points with the main race of the Horde that values all these things.

Instead of dumping the blood elves' connection with the Forsaken at the end of TBC and later making Sylvanas a caricature, lean into the Eastern Horde gimmick that started out their arrangement in the first place and Sylvanas' historic connection with the blood elves. Play up the mad science angle with goblins and the more self-pitying side with the tauren. None of this is impossible, none of this requires a perfect flowerchild who just so happens to be Arthas's sister to save the Forsaken from their sins and push them into the Light of the God-King, who clearly cares about more about them than their leader or the Horde. Nothing prevents the Forsaken from interacting more heavily with the Horde, in fact this has already been done in Cataclysm, both positively with the seadogs and Cromush and negatively with Drek'thar's reasonable contempt for them.

Re: Calia
No, Calia is a parody of the Forsaken. The sister of the person who killed all of them who lived in comfort while they all suffered and were hunted down, motivated by pure love for all that lives, connected with exclusively Alliance characters and with not a flaw to be seen. Not burdened by undeath, not even made ugly or losing her positivity or what have you, but voluntarily choosing to become undead in a perfect holy version, ditching the entire element that their source of contentment and support in life - their faith, was now painful to them. Calia is the death of everything the Forsaken have been for fifteen years. The cockroach vendor would be a better leader. Hell, a Darkspear situation where they have no leader and fall by the wayside is preferable to Calia.

The point of reconciliation is not so much that they need the friendly humans ot help them gain purpose in life, more that given their homeland being Lordaeron no matter how you slice it. There clearly has to be a way forward for the story.

And that story involves either being accepted by or being rejected by humans. And not even necessarily in a family happytimes kind of way, more in a passive acceptance kind of way, similar to what i assume most Human Belf relations would turn back to over time.

If they are not accepted as their own people by humans, then their story will never end so long as they want to return home. At least not unless anyone thinks Blizz will remove Alliance completely from the game.
If they are accepted then their story can have an actual payoff, either by rejecting their living kin, a perfeclty reasonable ending which can end on a "happy" note where they have finally found their place in the world from a point of once being almost universally despised.
Or by going for something in the middle, where, like in my semi-fanfic they settle somewhere in Lordaeron, like Stratholme and they just end up another race in the Eastern Kingdom that has a few citizens with relatives in other Human kingdoms.

I am not going to claim that they obviously can only exist as undead humans, but they clearly need some sort of acceptance with the humans of the Eastern Kingdoms, or the story will end like i mentioned, they will eventually die out and noone will be left to mourn them.

[Super Dickmann]

The point of reconciliation is not so much that they need the friendly humans ot help them gain purpose in life, more that given their homeland being Lordaeron no matter how you slice it. There clearly has to be a way forward for the story.

And that story involves either being accepted by or being rejected by humans. And not even necessarily in a family happytimes kind of way, more in a passive acceptance kind of way, similar to what i assume most Human Belf relations would turn back to over time.

This is a self-created problem that exists solely because of BTS and the Battle for Lordaeron and doesn't require the resolution you prompt at all. The Forsaken were already rejected by humans as the baseline and they don't need to be given back Lordaeron, they still have all of it but Undercity and only lost it as part of this narrative in the first place. In other words, saying that they need to be accepted or rejected by humans to get back Lordaeron and have their story resolved is wrong both in that this already had a solution and it's in the name they've had since they were first introduced and the entire concept of the race, but they also already had Lordaeron and were defending it. The whole point of Cata is that they were still the people of Lordaeron, not just the 'former' people of Lordaeron and accepted a more positive view of themselves accordingly. A more positive view that incidentally made them even worse to their neighbours, hence creating more conflict which is a good thing in a game about conflict.

I am not going to claim that they obviously can only exist as undead humans, but they clearly need some sort of acceptance with the humans of the Eastern Kingdoms, or the story will end like i mentioned, they will eventually die out and noone will be left to mourn them.

Nothing says that the only meaningful bonds the Forsaken can have is with the humans of the Eastern Kingdoms except you and the book, which is another reason why the book is shit. It's the definition of their identity being characterized solely by what worth is given to them by what they used to be rather than what they are now. This is not a problem, not only will this instance never come as it falls outside the scope of the game, but even should it happen, the answer is that the Horde will care - the ones who chose to accept them after they were undead and with whom they can build up meaningful bonds on an equal basis rather than one based on self pity.

@formerShandalay

We all have races that we're more invested than others. I'm not getting at an ad hominem here but more so that virtually everyone I've found who doesn't get why Calia and BTS in general were such a kick in the balls to the people who play Forsaken also isn't very invested in their story to start with.

But yeah, I know BTS isn't the first time this was tried, I even cited examples of it. Again, it's all in the name. Past that, I agree on all your points and you summarize what I'm getting at regarding human and undead coexistence not being viable on a really basic level.

[Sondrelk]

Regarding Calia, i guess we will jsut have to agree to disagree, because either she becomes the Forsaken leader and hopefully gets some development to not make it as jarring. (A cosmeitc option for Forsaken to make them lightbound for instance)
Or she becomes the leader of an Alliance allied race of redeemed forsaken, forcing the normal forsaken to the villain pile for all eternity as the AR Lighsaken would get all the happy endings and closure that the normal Forsaken would normally have gotten, when instead they just get to sit in Orgrimmar feeling miserable.

[Super Dickmann]

Regarding Calia, i guess we will jsut have to agree to disagree, because either she becomes the Forsaken leader and hopefully gets some development to not make it as jarring. (A cosmeitc option for Forsaken to make them lightbound for instance)
Or she becomes the leader of an Alliance allied race of redeemed forsaken, forcing the normal forsaken to the villain pile for all eternity as the AR Lighsaken would get all the happy endings and closure that the normal Forsaken would normally have gotten, when instead they just get to sit in Orgrimmar feeling miserable.

Holy Forsaken are themselves an atrocity that run counter to the idea of the Forsaken. The whole point is that the Light burns them where before it used to be a really nice thing they found comfort in. Or, for the holy priests among them, that it was horribly painful to them but their faith was so strong that not even death could sway it or change their desire to help. That's actual pathos, not choosing to become undead with zero of the downsides. I can bear not having a happy ending, you don't roll a zombie for a wholesome story after all, provided it saves me from having a race I've played for so long being rewritten to service one writer's relentless shilling for a pair of pet characters.

[Sondrelk]

This is a self-created problem that exists solely because of BTS and the Battle for Lordaeron and doesn't require the resolution you prompt at all. The Forsaken were already rejected by humans as the baseline and they don't need to be given back Lordaeron, they still have all of it but Undercity and only lost it as part of this narrative in the first place. In other words, saying that they need to be accepted or rejected by humans to get back Lordaeron and have their story resolved is wrong both in that this already had a solution and it's in the name they've had since they were first introduced and the entire concept of the race, but they also already had Lordaeron and were defending it. The whole point of Cata is that they were still the people of Lordaeron, not just the 'former' people of Lordaeron and accepted a more positive view of themselves accordingly. A more positive view that incidentally made them even worse to their neighbours, hence creating more conflict which is a good thing in a game about conflict.


Nothing says that the only meaningful bonds the Forsaken can have is with the humans of the Eastern Kingdoms except you and the book, which is another reason why the book is shit. It's the definition of their identity being defined solely by what worth is given to them by what they used to be rather than what they are now. This is not a problem, not only will this instance never come as it falls outside the scope of the game, but even should it happen, the answer is that the Horde will care - the ones who chose to accept them after they were undead and with whom they can build up meaningful bonds on an equal basis rather than one based on self pity.

Let me put it this way then. If Forsaken are not accepted as their own thing by humans. What would happen to them?

Even if we assume they are allowed to retake Lordaeron with no problem. Unless they continually wage war on the Alliance they are certainly not getting any more bodies, meaning they eventually die out, Alliance retakes Lordaeron and noone gives a shit. Not to mention that if they continually wage war just for bodies i doubt the Horde would continue to support them by the end. Waging a war across the ocean to help your allies graverobbing what will likely end up being someone the Horde has a ceasfire with is not going to go over well forever.

If they are accepted they get to live their lives unhindered for the rest of their (un)lives in Lordaeron as someone that either reproduces by the way of Zelling (i.e. humans who want another chance) or at the very least gets to gradually die with dignity as the people they once were.

- - - Updated - - -

Holy Forsaken are themselves an atrocity that run counter to the idea of the Forsaken. The whole point is that the Light burns them where before it used to be a really nice thing they found comfort in. Or, for the holy priests among them, that it was horribly painful to them but their faith was so strong that not even death could sway it or change their desire to help. That's actual pathos, not choosing to become undead with zero of the downsides. I can bear not having a happy ending, you don't roll a zombie for a wholesome story after all, provided it saves me from having a race I've played for so long being rewritten to service one writer's relentless shilling for a pair of pet characters.

And that is kinda my point i tried to make earlier, you can talk all you want about not wanting a happy ending, but it woudlnt really gel with the rest of the game. Like it or not the story needs closure, and happy endings are usually the way to go. And Forsaken getting to choose to not live in pain is a nice happy ending that fits snugly into the game.

[Super Dickmann]

Let me put it this way then. If Forsaken are not accepted as their own thing by humans. What would happen to them?

Even if we assume they are allowed to retake Lordaeron with no problem. Unless they continually wage war on the Alliance they are certainly not getting any more bodies, meaning they eventually die out, Alliance retakes Lordaeron and noone gives a shit. Not to mention that if they continually wage war just for bodies i doubt the Horde would continue to support them by the end. Waging a war across the ocean to help your allies graverobbing what will likely end up being someone the Horde has a ceasfire with is not going to go over well forever.

If they are accepted they get to live their lives unhindered for the rest of their (un)lives in Lordaeron as someone that either reproduces by the way of Zelling (i.e. humans who want another chance) or at the very least gets to gradually die with dignity as the people they once were.

Take Lordaeron by force. Or don't, do a Gilnean or gnome story where it's their holy land they want taken back. The Horde are the ones who they have to tie in with and the Horde are the ones they have ample material to fit in with that's already had a portion of it used before, as already stated. The Forsaken do not require the approval of the Alliance to exist as some kind of imperative of their narrative when their whole conceit was the rejection thereof. This isn't a problem. The writers can invent whatever they like, they already rewrote the Forsaken once, nothing prevents them from having the Forsaken make bonds with the Horde races. They just chose not to write this.

Nor is the reproduction some huge deal that can't be solved. Remaining Scourge can be picked up, hell, the Cult of the Damned got huge membership when their promisse of eternal life also had being a mindslave to the Lich King attached, the Forsaken have a much better pitch and it also removes the free will inconsistency that's being nudged around.

And that is kinda my point i tried to make earlier, you can talk all you want about not wanting a happy ending, but it woudlnt really gel with the rest of the game. Like it or not the story needs closure, and happy endings are usually the way to go. And Forsaken getting to choose to not live in pain is a nice happy ending that fits snugly into the game.

The message that their sole worth is defined by the people who rejected them for fifteen years and their holy savior who shares nothing in common with them except pity and that their entire efforts to find an existence separate from that is meaningless somehow being a desirable ending is worthy of parody. And once again, this game is a long-form narrative, no happy ending of the sort is necessary.

[Sondrelk]

Take Lordaeron by force. Or don't, do a Gilnean or gnome story where it's their holy land they want taken back. The Horde are the ones who they have to tie in with and the Horde are the ones they have ample material to fit in with that's already had a portion of it used before, as already stated. The Forsaken do not require the approval of the Alliance to exist as some kind of imperative of their narrative when their whole conceit was the rejection thereof. This isn't a problem. The writers can invent whatever they like, they already rewrote the Forsaken once, nothing prevents them from having the Forsaken make bonds with the Horde races. They just chose not to write this.

Nor is the reproduction some huge deal that can't be solved. Remaining Scourge can be picked up, hell, the Cult of the Damned got huge membership when their promisse of eternal life also had being a mindslave to the Lich King attached, the Forsaken have a much better pitch and it also removes the free will inconsistency that's being nudged around.


The message that their sole worth is defined by the people who rejected them for fifteen years and their holy savior who shares nothing in common with them except pity and that their entire efforts to find an existence separate from that is somehow a desirable ending is worthy of parody. And once again, this game is a long-form narrative, no happy ending of the sort is necessary.

Well, anywys, i doubt we will agree on this anyways.
My final point is just to argue from a narrative perspective. And the story definitely needs an ending, like it or not.
And for the Forsaken that ending requires some sort of acceptance with the Alliance. You can complain about it all you want, but their story does not end until they get to live in Lordaeron without the Alliance giving a shit. And this ending is pretty much guaranteed to be a happy one, no matter how much you want to complain about it, and reconciliation with the Alliance is a conclusive happy ending to at least the Forsaken RPers that enjoy RPing as Loardaeron citizens.

[Super Dickmann]

Well, anywys, i doubt we will agree on this anyways.
My final point is just to argue from a narrative perspective. And the story definitely needs an ending, like it or not.
And for the Forsaken that ending requires some sort of acceptance with the Alliance. You can complain about it all you want, but their story does not end until they get to live in Lordaeron without the Alliance giving a shit. And this ending is pretty much guaranteed to be a happy one, no matter how much you want to complain about it, and reconciliation with the Alliance is a conclusive happy ending to at least the Forsaken RPers that enjoy RPing as Loardaeron citizens.

No other race has an ending to its story because it's a long form narrative, your entire point is asinine as is your argument regarding the Forsaken. Virtually no one rolled Forsaken wanting to be the masochistic sidekick to the Alliance lead by Arthas's sister and nothing of their content for fifteen years has pushed in this direction. The Forsaken requiring the Alliance's stamp of approval to be what they already were is in fact running counter to all of their themes up to this point to service people who don't play them and the hack writer who's just using them as a tool to beef up her surrogate son character.

That and anyone playing a Lordaeron citizen would already have been perfectly fine doing this canonically since 4.0, when they were added to Lordaeron Keep already living as close to a normal life as you can while being a zombie. They were just doing this without Anduin's seal of approval.

[Sondrelk]

No other race has an ending to its story because it's a long form narrative, your entire point is asinine as is your argument regarding the Forsaken. Virtually no one rolled Forsaken wanting to be the masochistic sidekick to the Alliance lead by Arthas's sister and nothing of their content for fifteen years has pushed in this direction. The Forsaken requiring the Alliance's stamp of approval to be what they already were is in fact running counter to all of their themes up to this point to service people who don't play them and the hack writer who's just using them as a tool to beef up her surrogate son character.

That and anyone playing a Lordaeron citizen would already have been perfectly fine doing this canonically since 4.0.

Other races don't have the problem Forsaken does becauseof the mechanics of how Forsaken "reproduce"
Alliance has to accept them in some capacity or they will eventually die out. Or i suppose they could become undead Belves and Orcs or whatever.
Orcs don't need Alliance approval because they are in Kalimdor chilling, same with Trolls. Belves can sjut stay in Silvermoon doing whatever without the Alliance caring and noone needs to see the other.
Forsaken need dead bodies to reproduce, human bodies specifically, and unless their ending is they die out and end up a footnote in human history, they need a level of reconciliation with the Alliance.

Though i suppose you have a point with the cult of the damned angle, i just fail to see how that would in any way be different from passive acceptance from the Alliance. Either way their continued existence is dependent on the "patronage" of humans.


Or maybe they just kill and reanimate pirates and such, i just happen ot think that would not be a very satisfying ending to one of the races that have been part of the game since the beginning.

[Varodoc]

The Night King was certainly much more successful than every Warcraft villain combined. He was always one step ahead of his opponents and came so close to victory. His army had won the battle and all that was left of the living was down to the plot-armored main characters (until ep.4 retconned that and said that somehow 50% of the soldiers survived). Truly, the Night King's only mistake was underestimating the protagonists' plot armor.

Name me a Warcraft villain who has caused as many losses to the main characters as the Night King has. He was basically WINNING effortlessly until the very last moments of episode 3. Whereas the villains in Warcraft are very much incompetent and hardly deal signfiicant losses against the protagonists (the only exception was Gul'dan at the Broken Shore, and perhaps Azshara with the Kul Tiran fleet).

And, for the record, I am using the term "villain" loosely, because D.B. Weiss already said that the Night King was not actually a villain.

[Super Dickmann]

Other races don't have the problem Forsaken does becauseof the mechanics of how Forsaken "reproduce"
Alliance has to accept them in some capacity or they will eventually die out. Or i suppose they could become undead Belves and Orcs or whatever.
Orcs don't need Alliance approval because they are in Kalimdor chilling, same with Trolls. Belves can sjut stay in Silvermoon doing whatever without the Alliance caring and noone needs to see the other.
Forsaken need dead bodies to reproduce, human bodies specifically, and unless their ending is they die out and end up a footnote in human history, they need a level of reconciliation with the Alliance.

Though i suppose you have a point with the cult of the damned angle, i just fail to see how that would in any way be different from passive acceptance from the Alliance. Either way their continued existence is dependent on the "patronage" of humans.


Or maybe they just kill and reanimate pirates and such, i just happen ot think that would not be a very satisfying ending to one of the races that have been part of the game since the beginning.

No, genuinely, there's no need for an ending at all. The orcs had a happy ending, ostensibly, in WC3. Their arc was over, they were all perfectly in alignment with their flawless leader. But because there must be conflict in a franchise built entirely around war and so their leader instead planted them in a barren wasteland and turned out to be incompetent, they became disillusioned with having to carry their allies on their backs and said leader ultimately pawned off the position to someone better suited. Then even after that guy was unseated, we eventually recruited people who were his fantasy society, requiring no change in ethos whatsoever to gel in with the current Horde. Conflict is king. Once the game is over it won't matter anyway and even then leaving hooks for future conflicts is beneficial.

Though i suppose you have a point with the cult of the damned angle, i just fail to see how that would in any way be different from passive acceptance from the Alliance. Either way their continued existence is dependent on the "patronage" of humans.

I don't think you really need me to explain to you the difference between a kingdom of detestable sadsacks giving up their identity of fifteen years to mould themselves after someone who never interacted with any of them all this time and adopted a condition superior to all of theirs with none of the drawbacks to save them from themselves vs. a situation wherein other people come around to accepting that maybe they'd like to be like the Forsaken too and that perpetuates their society where they maintain their identity.

One is a validation of their opposition, the other is a validation of them as a people. You don't need any kind of permanent peace, such a thing doesn't exist anyway, all you need to do is set up an end situation where the Forsaken hold their lands and the Alliance hold others and they lack motive to go after each other and are free to exist as is their culture.

[Wilfire]

The Night King was certainly much more successful than every Warcraft villain combined. He was always one step ahead of his opponents and came so close to victory. His army had won the battle and all that was left of the living was down to the plot-armored main characters (until ep.4 retconned that and said that somehow 50% of the soldiers survived). Truly, the Night King's only mistake was underestimating the protagonists' plot armor.

Name me a Warcraft villain who has caused as many losses to the main characters as the Night King has. He was basically WINNING effortlessly until the very last moments of episode 3. Whereas the villains in Warcraft are very much incompetent and hardly deal signfiicant losses against the protagonists (the only exception was Gul'dan at the Broken Shore, and perhaps Azshara with the Kul Tiran fleet).

And, for the record, I am using the term "villain" loosely, because D.B. Weiss already said that the Night King was not actually a villain.

N'Zoth effortlessly shattered Azeroth, corrupted several main characters (culminating in the corruption of THE main character - the PC) and is now close to corrupting Azeroth and unmaking all of creation.

All of those achievements, of course, required his opposition to be completely dumb and inept and hand him his victories on a silver platter. Just like Jon & co gave the Night King a dragon and then futilely sacrificed the entire Dothraki faction and most of the Unsullied to do... something, instead of just holing up in Winterfell and defending it properly.