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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't think this is a retcon by Blizzard or anything like that - I am saying that this is Thalyssra being a bit political, subtly rephrasing or re-crouching the reasoning behind Suramar's actions in the War of the Ancients for better optics (specifically for Shandris and the Kaldorei). It has the added bonus of being potentially true, while still obfuscating the obvious protectionism and self-centered rationale of Elisande and the leadership of Suramar at the time.
    It's completely unneeded though. Suramar put on a shield because there was a Legion army marching on it to punish them for sealing the second portal that Suramar couldn't fight alone and the only one to help them was Ashamane who only slowed them down, giving the people of Suramar the time to construct the shield. It was either shield or annihilation, with Suramar being unable to help the rest of the Night Elves if they got obliterated anyway.
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    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    They really only had ONE pillar though. Heck they could not even have had the others because the Hammer was in the keeping of Neltharion until Huln found it, the Aegis was kept by Odyn since well before the War, the Tidestone was likely shattered early in the war and it is unlikely the Tear was in Suramar; if it was it would be on the Temple and thus specifically left outside the shield, making the hypocrisy even bigger.
    According to chronicle the nightborne had the pillars of creation during the war of the ancients and used their power to seal the second legion portal, retreated to suramar and made use of the eye of Aman'thul for the nightwell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    They could have left their city and joined the rest of their people that was fighting just a hill over.
    Sure but that was quite risky. The nightborne pulled a typical draenei move here.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    They really only had ONE pillar though. Heck they could not even have had the others because the Hammer was in the keeping of Neltharion until Huln found it, the Aegis was kept by Odyn since well before the War, the Tidestone was likely shattered early in the war and it is unlikely the Tear was in Suramar; if it was it would be on the Temple and thus specifically left outside the shield, making the hypocrisy even bigger.
    Does't really matter insofar as Thalyssra's justification goes, in the end - one Pillar or all of them, she doesn't really explicate (nor would she in this case).
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    It's completely unneeded though. Suramar put on a shield because there was a Legion army marching on it to punish them for sealing the second portal that Suramar couldn't fight alone and the only one to help them was Ashamane who only slowed them down, giving the people of Suramar the time to construct the shield. It was either shield or annihilation, with Suramar being unable to help the rest of the Night Elves if they got obliterated anyway.
    Thalyssra's rationale lacks the ability to apply the cowardice rebuttal, however; or at least doesn't make it as easy to apply. Whether or not one considers Suramar's actions to be understandable it's very obvious Shandris has her own ideas - likely a product of what she's been told (as Shandris was just a little girl during the War of the Ancients). Trying to explain the dire situation of Suramar during the War probably wouldn't do much to offset Shandris' current biases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I don't really think this changes the opinions players will have formed for the Nightborne anyway tbh. It's completely superfluous information
    Well she's talking to Shandris here, and not the player themselves - and it's Shandris (or herself) that she's trying to convince.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    There would have to be a fairly long time gap between Suramar's court closing the portal in the Tomb and them secluding themselves for any of this to work.
    With the exception of the the hammer and the tidestone the other pillars could have been scattered over the broken isles over the course of several thousand years after the war. All we have is chronicle saying the nightborne got them at one point and used them, with Thalyssra expanding on it, yet how the pillars were scattered still remains a mystery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I don't really think this changes the opinions players will have formed for the Nightborne anyway tbh. It's completely superfluous information
    The nightborne were a bunch of cowards and quite selfish, as I said prior they pulled a draenei move.
    Last edited by Combatbutler; 2019-05-12 at 02:51 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Tbh I am a bit confused about this. Ashamane's story makes the situation in Suramar seem dire. Meanwhile the Chronicle does the opposite; the way that paragraph is written it makes it feel like the danger to Suramar after they shut the portal off was no longer immediate; it says "Fearing calamity" and "fortifying their holdings" both of which imply they had time to work.
    I think the situation in Suramar was dire - but not conclusively impossible, as it were. Basically the Nightborne to be faced this essential conundrum: oppose the Legion and risk annihilation, or shield themselves and live to fight another day. The risk was a high one, but not so high that to fight was to be killed outright. They opted not to fight, and instead to raise their shield over Suramar City and wait out the Legion. Objectively speaking that's not cowardice, it was a reasoned and rational response to what they faced, but the rest of the Kaldorei who fought and died to actually end the threat of the Legion are obviously going to see that a bit differently.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Tbh I am a bit confused about this. Ashamane's story makes the situation in Suramar seem dire. Meanwhile the Chronicle does the opposite; the way that paragraph is written it makes it feel like the danger to Suramar after they shut the portal off was no longer immediate; it says "Fearing calamity" and "fortifying their holdings" both of which imply they had time to work.
    It all works in tandem the nightborne feared calamity and it came, though chances are they were not aware of how close it actually was, due to Ashamane stopping the demons.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Objectively speaking that's not cowardice, it was a reasoned and rational response to what they faced, but the rest of the Kaldorei who fought and died to actually end the threat of the Legion are obviously going to see that a bit differently.
    I have to disagree here, it was clear cut cowardice, the entire planet was at risk it is in such moments that you can't just sit back and ignore the threat, sure they saved the planet ultimately, but just saying we are done here while the legion rampages on was a terrible move, if they had put up the shield waited until the demons left the area and then attacked them from the rear, now that would have been sensible.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    They also had the option to circle around and abandon the city while joining the resistance. Like many other Highborne did.

    I mean ultimately Suramar decided to shield itself because Elisande's chronomantic divinations told her that in all possible futures the resistance would lose. Same way that she submitted to Gul'dan because the Legion would in all futures win. It really tells us that Elisande was a quack and the Nightborne were better of trusting their horoscopes
    Elisande wasn't aware that her divination ability was less than perfect - she couldn't account for futures she couldn't rightly see (and given her arrogance she likely felt it was impossible). The leadership of Suramar could have done a lot of things, and some of those things might've gotten them all killed, and some of them might have seen them hailed as heroes even today. But they didn't choose that, instead they chose to hide and wait out the war. They and their knowledge survived into modern times as a result, and now their Kaldorei brethren regard them as cowards (not at all helped by the fact that most of them joined the Legion later on).
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #30
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    I have to disagree here, it was clear cut cowardice, the entire planet was at risk it is in such moments that you can't just sit back and ignore the threat, sure they saved the planet ultimately, but just saying we are done here while the legion rampages on was a terrible move, if they had put up the shield waited until the demons left the area and then attacked them from the rear, now that would have been sensible.
    I don't really regard going out in a "blaze of glory" as a show of strength, personally - the Nightborne thought the cause was lost and to fight meant death as Elisande herself had foreseen the result ending in failure. Ignoring the threat would've meant doing nothing at all - they reacted by putting up the shield, unwilling to die for what would been nothing from their perspective. They were ultimately in error, but that doesn't make them cowards either.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't really regard going out in a "blaze of glory" as a show of strength, personally - the Nightborne thought the cause was lost and to fight meant death as Elisande herself had foreseen the result ending in failure. Ignoring the threat would've meant doing nothing at all - they reacted by putting up the shield, unwilling to die for what would been nothing from their perspective. They were ultimately in error, but that doesn't make them cowards either.
    Considering they remained holed up under that shield for 10k years straight, despite having limited outside contact with odyn for example, so they knew the legion was gone, yet still remaining under the shield, so I have to disagree.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Considering they remained holed up under that shield for 10k years straight, despite having limited outside contact with odyn for example, so they knew the legion was gone, yet still remaining under the shield, so I have to disagree.
    Once the Legion was defeated did it really matter what they did or didn't do, at least insofar as concerns cowardice? When the Sundering happened they became part of a little island floating out to sea with no knowledge of what happened to the rest of Kalimdor-that-was or their Kaldorei cousins. Tyrande and Malfurion thought Suramar destroyed, and they likely thought the same of everyone else. Having limited contact with Odyn (himself imprisoned in the Halls of Valor) wouldn't tell them a whole lot - obviously not enough for them to risk dropping the shield.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Once the Legion was defeated did it really matter what they did or didn't do, at least insofar as concerns cowardice? When the Sundering happened they became part of a little island floating out to sea with no knowledge of what happened to the rest of Kalimdor-that-was or their Kaldorei cousins. Tyrande and Malfurion thought Suramar destroyed, and they likely thought the same of everyone else. Having limited contact with Odyn (himself imprisoned in the Halls of Valor) wouldn't tell them a whole lot - obviously not enough for them to risk dropping the shield.
    Yeah it does, they had means to communicate with the outside world, could have rebuild their society in the surrounding area, it became obvious the legion did not win. Odyn's val'kyr operate planet wide there is absolutely no reason they wouldn't have learned what had happened, so the shield became unnecessary, but they chose to keep it up regardless.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yeah it does, they had means to communicate with the outside world, could have rebuild their society in the surrounding area, it became obvious the legion did not win. Odyn's val'kyr operate planet wide there is absolutely no reason they wouldn't have learned what had happened, so the shield became unnecessary, but they chose to keep it up regardless.
    Obviously they didn't learn that, though - meaning their contact with Odyn was limited enough that such knowledge was never transmitted (or else they chose not to act on it). Odyn's Val'kyr also don't tend to operate in the physical world, either - they're psychopomps for the most part, so most of their operations would be in the Shadowlands. It seems doubtful the Nightborne had any kind of open and rolling communication with Odyn, either; or else they would've known a lot more about the state of the world post opening of the shield (which they obviously don't). This narrative doesn't scan with what we already know of them.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Obviously they didn't learn that, though - meaning their contact with Odyn was limited enough that such knowledge was never transmitted (or else they chose not to act on it). Odyn's Val'kyr also don't tend to operate in the physical world, either - they're psychopomps for the most part, so most of their operations would be in the Shadowlands. It seems doubtful the Nightborne had any kind of open and rolling communication with Odyn, either; or else they would've known a lot more about the state of the world post opening of the shield (which they obviously don't). This narrative doesn't scan with what we already know of them.
    They gave him the Aegis at one point, so there must have been quite a bit of correspondence to be honest. The only information that really mattered was the legion did not win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean we know they exiled people outside the shield all the time.

    The entire premise of the shield is hilarious anyway. I am sure that if Archimonde marched on it, he'd crack it like an egg, Eye of Aman'thul or not.
    Now that is doubtful, I mean dalaran was protected in Legion so it wouldn't be sacked like in Wc3. I seriously doubt the Kirin Tor had anything in their city that could compete with the eye.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean we know they exiled people outside the shield all the time.

    The entire premise of the shield is hilarious anyway. I am sure that if Archimonde marched on it, he'd crack it like an egg, Eye of Aman'thul or not.
    People exiled out of the shield had a tendency to die swiftly, and when they actually made the transition to being the Nightborne exile became an out and out death sentence. As for Archimonde, he had his sights set on the Well itself and not Suramar - that was what the Legion were concerned with and not the Nightwell or the Eye of Aman'thul. Fortunate for Suramar that this was the case, as I agree with you - the full might of the Legion would've been more than a match for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    They gave him the Aegis at one point, so there must have been quite a bit of correspondence to be honest. The only information that really mattered was the legion did not win.
    Not necessarily, and Odyn isn't really the kind to volunteer such information. It is more likely that he simply and imperiously demanded the return of the Aegis and that the Nightborne acceded to the demand. The rest has the feel of trying to look for inconsistencies where none otherwise need to be.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    And imo that was just plain stupid. KJ should have been able to knock Dalaran out of the sky. Would have made for a far more dramatic expansion. The six could have maybe stabilized it, leaving it floating on water so they did not have to redo all content.
    That is blizz storytelling for you, first they retconned the nightborne in and made quite a few consistency errors with them as a result, then we have dalaran the impenetrable fortress, despite it being utter fodder just a few years prior, the Draenei spearheading the assault on Argus, despite the fact the legion literally mopped the floor with them at the beginning of the xpack, we could barely handle the normal invasion, but the Argus itself not a problem we've got this and the list goes on and on.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yeah it does, they had means to communicate with the outside world, could have rebuild their society in the surrounding area, it became obvious the legion did not win. Odyn's val'kyr operate planet wide there is absolutely no reason they wouldn't have learned what had happened, so the shield became unnecessary, but they chose to keep it up regardless.
    Gamescom panel 2015, they said the nightborne thought the demons won and had overun Azeroth, that they were the only survivors and letting the shield down would finish them off. This is why exile was so feared and why when they ran low on resources they conjured solutions rather than drop the shield and use natural food, managed to harness arcwine to feed and cloth themselves
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2019-05-13 at 10:29 AM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    And what we are saying is that the new comment by Thalyssra suggesting they had the Pillars in there makes no sense because if they had the Hammer or Shield, that means Deathwing or the Val'kyr visited Suramar and it makes even less sense when it comes to the Tidestone or the Tear.
    It was my understanding that the Pillars of Creation were originally used by the Highborne of Suramar to seal the portal the Legion had created in the Temple of Elune (what would go on to become the Tomb of Sargeras) - this does not necessarily imply that they all returned to their keeping in Suramar. We know that the Eye of Aman'thul did, as it was later used to create the Nightwell, but the Tidestone appeared to be moved to Nar'thalas Academy for study and the Tears of Elune brought to the new Temple of Elune in Val'sharah. It's possible that after the Pillars were used during the War of the Ancients that agents of Neltharion and Odyn recalled their respective Pillars back there and then, and the Highborne's possession of them was only temporarily - meaning that the shield over Suramar was erected solely to defend the Eye of Aman'thul from the Legion (which is probably reason enough given its nature and set of powers). It's also possible that after sealing the portal the Pillars were spread around to use as weapons or defenses against the remaining Legion forces. and were then lost in the upheavals following the Sundering.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  20. #40
    Blizzard could've forgotten the story they've come up with for Suramar, but then again, Thalysra's character might've come into play again. This is the same elf that decided to make her people join a war to kill night elves because Tyrande merely asked her how they could trust them after everything. One sentence rustled her silk jimmies; I wouldn't be surprised if Thalysra is simply disingenuine, a trait she would share with her warchief. Elisande already told us why the shield was brought up and we know this out of character too, which is why Thalysra's take seems to be an unimportant excessive opinion.

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