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  1. #1
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
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    Why are the works of Edgar Rice Burroughs so neglected today?

    So among the founders of modern fantasy and science fiction, Burroughs seems to get very little respect. Despite starting writing considerably before Tolkien, and achieving much greater commercial success, he is often dismissed as a hack, and with the sole exception of Tarzan, his works receive very little modern attention. Almost all of the great writers that came after him credit him as an inspiration to them, including Ray Bradbury, who called him the most influential author that ever lived.

    Yet today, all of his settings are basically unknown, which is a bit weird. Burroughs style of writing was very much adventure pulp writing, but his worlds were beautifully realized and interconnected. It is all very much wish fulfillment, but it is undeniably fun, and it was incredibly popular at the time.

    But Burroughs created a lot of modern literary staples. Almost all of his works fit in a vast interconnected universe, that sees the entire solar system populated with human life. Mars is an ancient, arid, dying civilization. Venus is a lush, wild, and chaotic world full of sky pirates and ancient mysteries. The Moon holds caves full of a bizarre and primitive world. Inside the Earth is a fledgling human civilization struggling against the Ice age creatures and an ancient reptilian civilization. And of course the Earth itself is full of lost civilizations and unknown jungles. In many ways this universe was simply the codification of a 1910s era view of the universe (Unfortunately, complete with racism), but it also was incredibly influential on generations of writers that followed, and remains an incredibly entertaining universe to this day. I read almost all of his books as a kid, at least the ones I could find.

    But today for some reason nobody gives any respect to the OG Fantasy universe that spawned the ones we have today, and I find that strange. Disney tried with John Carter of Mars, but that movie was a massive flop, partially because it could decide if it wanted to pander to audiences that knew the setting, or pander to those that had never heard of it. Hollywood cranks out lifeless Tarzan movies every couple years like clockwork, but all of them lack the adventure of the originals, and are never connected to any of the key elements of the setting. Still, Tarzan is the only element of his works that is currently known at all. Pellucidar in particular has an enormous amount of potential, yet never gets approached.

    So why don't more games or modern works draw from this universe? It is vast and detailed universe that was once incredibly popular. It really isn't hard to cull the 1910-1920s racism and misogyny out of it, and it is old enough that most of it is now open source.

  2. #2
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    The same reason many mediocre writers are neglected.

    There are just far better Authors to enjoy.

  3. #3
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    The same reason many mediocre writers are neglected.

    There are just far better Authors to enjoy.
    I am curious as to why Burroughs is seen as a mediocre author though? It feels like it is the same reason that fun movies never win Oscars. People assume that light and entertaining are the opposite of quality. Burroughs characters may be idealized, but they are interesting and memorable characters, and they are well written. And some of his settings are genius. There is a reason he inspired so many later authors who are much better regarded.

  4. #4
    Well, technically, Burroughs got his chance at a multi-billion dollar franchise….

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    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    I am curious as to why Burroughs is seen as a mediocre author though? It feels like it is the same reason that fun movies never win Oscars. People assume that light and entertaining are the opposite of quality. Burroughs characters may be idealized, but they are interesting and memorable characters, and they are well written. And some of his settings are genius. There is a reason he inspired so many later authors who are much better regarded.
    They really aren't though. Nearly all of his characters are 2D as hell. Light and entertaining can have quality. But it doesn't always. Also better writers being inspired by someone doesn't mean the Person of inspiration is on their level.

    Hell Disney's Tarzan is one of my favourite all-time animated movies. But even that script whilst being inspired by the original Tarzan was so heavily modified and the characters given much more depth compared to the original is a good indication of how mediocre the original was.

    Also John Carter whilst having a good setting had pretty much Trash for everything else, i.e. Plot, Character Development, Pacing etc. The Hobbit Movie Trilogy is also a good testament to this.
    Last edited by Super Kami Dende; 2019-05-12 at 02:28 AM.

  6. #6
    John Carter of Mars, TBH, respected as much as possible the setting (I'm afraid that for instance, the original clothing (none whatsoever) of Martians would have been very hard to adapt) with a very generous budget. This is not to bash Burroughs, Lovecraft or to a lesser degree Howard, but their characters tended to be a bit light on characterization and the plots a bit free-flowing.

  7. #7
    The most compelling reason I've heard is that so many derivatives have spawned that people feel like the original is a cliche. The Seinfeld effect, or somesuch.

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    Scarab Lord
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    Saturation and highlight of only the tip of the iceberg has this effect. It ends up being like fashion reinvested/rethought down the line or forever shelved for aficionados to find. It's tough competition but if interested in the genre it doesn't make it any worse than the popular/alternative stories. Sci-fi or reading in general is great for anyone looking for inspiration. The formula has become so perfected in in recent times it almost hurts to see the new manufactured stuff trying so hard, being targeted for you so much to be drawn into it rather than deliver a good story/interesting setting with development.
    Last edited by Tiwack; 2019-05-12 at 04:19 AM.
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  9. #9
    Burroughs founded Tarzana, CA (basically a suburb of Los Angeles). The McDonalds in Tarzana has an Edgar Rice Burroughs theme. I don't know if he ate there, he might have. McDonalds and Burroughs are kinda similar actually. Back in 1945, they were cutting-edge in their field. But they both helped inspire so many other people in their field that today they are either considered basic or just terrible.
    Last edited by Kokolums; 2019-05-12 at 06:14 AM.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  10. #10
    So among the founders of modern fantasy and science fiction, Burroughs seems to get very little respect.
    Atm, the latest Tarzan movie was like 5 years ago? And Tarzan movies have been continuously made since the 1930's, some would say that is a success and recognition to the author.

    That said, some fantasy/sci-fi authors are way better concept-makers/world builders then writers, they have still earned their legacy though.
    Last edited by Waynhim; 2019-05-12 at 06:25 AM.

  11. #11
    I get why he wrote John Carter the way he did. 100 years ago, the lives of kings, queens and princes dominated the media more. So when he writes a story about the lives of martians, its natural that the first thing Burroughs is gonna do is focus on the plight of some princess to try to promote his work. Today, that is considered incredibly cliche and terrible writing, but that's in part because everyone was copying Burroughs lol. If Burroughs was alive today, he wouldn't write like that. Totally unfair to label him a mediocre writer.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  12. #12
    His settings may have been interesting, but his characters were flatter than the paper they were written on, and his plots were contrived and shallow and really, really racist/imperialist. You don't even have to look past Tarzan to see that. You admitted yourself he was considered a pulp fiction writer, and considered a hack even in his own day, those aren't inaccurate. Tolkein and C.S. Lewis had their problems with race as well, but at least they hid it better.

    Characters are infinitely more important to story than anything else. That's why some of the most highly regarded authors of all time (my personal favorite is Dostoevsky) have almost indiscernible plots and assumed worlds (in Dostoevsky, mostly modern Russia at his time), while lush environments with nothing happening in them are left by the wayside.

    Even Pulp Fiction, a movie supposedly inspired by that type of work, is a movie about wonderful characters, and why the world is mundane (the criminal side of L.A.) and the plot disjointed and out of order. Tarrentino set out to deconstruct the pulp fiction genre by making the action-adventure plot out of order, and thus make it all about the characters living within the plot. And then, when you analyze it later, you realize the plot is super boring - a boxer doesn't throw a match he's supposed to throw, bets on himself, takes all that money, tries to escape; a criminal boss sends his two goons to kill him, one quits after a close call, which allows the boxer to escape after killing the other. The end.

  13. #13
    Legendary! Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Tarzan is about adventure into the unknown, ofc millenials would get triggered by old stuff n feel the need to point out "dats raycciist!"...


  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Tarzan is about adventure into the unknown, ofc millenials would get triggered by old stuff n feel the need to point out "dats raycciist!"...
    The point of calling other people "triggered" is to not be triggered yourself but you sort of fumbled it.

  15. #15
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    What author from 90-120 years ago is still actually read?

    Clark Ashton Smith is continuously cited as a major influence on some very big sf/f names - who here has read him?

    HP Lovecraft's creations live on in name and in homage (similar themed products/movies, including some famous ones) - who here has read him?

    Robert Howard's most known creation is Conan - but who has read his conan works, to say nothing of the huge body of other works in multiple genres he wrote in his short life?

    Then you have the folks whose creations didn't become stand-out movies but who wrote 5-star fiction - Kuttner/Moore, Sheckley, Frederik Brown, De Camp, and so many others I have forgotten (or never read).

    Then look at authors from even 40 years ago - how many excellent authors are simply unknown now? Look at my signature for a host of examples of those.

    The current generation, to speak in general, doesn't read.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.

  16. #16
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    His settings may have been interesting, but his characters were flatter than the paper they were written on, and his plots were contrived and shallow and really, really racist/imperialist. You don't even have to look past Tarzan to see that. You admitted yourself he was considered a pulp fiction writer, and considered a hack even in his own day, those aren't inaccurate. Tolkein and C.S. Lewis had their problems with race as well, but at least they hid it better.

    Characters are infinitely more important to story than anything else. That's why some of the most highly regarded authors of all time (my personal favorite is Dostoevsky) have almost indiscernible plots and assumed worlds (in Dostoevsky, mostly modern Russia at his time), while lush environments with nothing happening in them are left by the wayside.

    Even Pulp Fiction, a movie supposedly inspired by that type of work, is a movie about wonderful characters, and why the world is mundane (the criminal side of L.A.) and the plot disjointed and out of order. Tarrentino set out to deconstruct the pulp fiction genre by making the action-adventure plot out of order, and thus make it all about the characters living within the plot. And then, when you analyze it later, you realize the plot is super boring - a boxer doesn't throw a match he's supposed to throw, bets on himself, takes all that money, tries to escape; a criminal boss sends his two goons to kill him, one quits after a close call, which allows the boxer to escape after killing the other. The end.
    That is completely fair, but I feel like it is easier to write more interesting characters and plots into a unique setting then the other way around. Instead they seem to do the opposite, and mess with the settings while leaving the characters flat. That modern adaptations are looking at the wrong this to change.

    Take for example the John Carter movie. They basically left John Carter as the same boring, overpowered character he was in the books (But made him a lot less fun), but they completely changed the setting. They brought in the plot to Mortal Engines and combined it with Barsoom (Mortal Engines later was able to fail on its own, so that may be more at fault then Barsoom).

    The latest Tarzan was the most cringe inducing concept I have seen in a long time. It somehow was simultaneously a Great Movie and a decent movie, but the two combined to be one horrible movie. I would be down for watching a Heart of Darkness movie starring Samuel L. Jackson discovering the atrocities of the Belgian Free State. I would be down for a pretty good Tarzan movie starring Alexander Skargard with a campy happy ending. But a Tarzan movie with one of the worst historical atrocities in recent history forming a semi-comedic backdrop? And giving it a happy ending, where Tarzan ends it all decades before it actually ended? Worst mashup ever. Both films seem to think that a straight adaptation of the setting won't hold audiences attention, so they combine it with something that jarringly doesn't match, and make the film much worse.

  17. #17
    Pandaren Monk Tabrotar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    What author from 90-120 years ago is still actually read?

    Clark Ashton Smith is continuously cited as a major influence on some very big sf/f names - who here has read him?

    HP Lovecraft's creations live on in name and in homage (similar themed products/movies, including some famous ones) - who here has read him?

    Robert Howard's most known creation is Conan - but who has read his conan works, to say nothing of the huge body of other works in multiple genres he wrote in his short life?

    Then you have the folks whose creations didn't become stand-out movies but who wrote 5-star fiction - Kuttner/Moore, Sheckley, Frederik Brown, De Camp, and so many others I have forgotten (or never read).

    Then look at authors from even 40 years ago - how many excellent authors are simply unknown now? Look at my signature for a host of examples of those.

    The current generation, to speak in general, doesn't read.
    I would say Fritz Leiber the author of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser is a good example as i read his books.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    That is completely fair, but I feel like it is easier to write more interesting characters and plots into a unique setting then the other way around. Instead they seem to do the opposite, and mess with the settings while leaving the characters flat. That modern adaptations are looking at the wrong this to change.

    Take for example the John Carter movie. They basically left John Carter as the same boring, overpowered character he was in the books (But made him a lot less fun), but they completely changed the setting. They brought in the plot to Mortal Engines and combined it with Barsoom (Mortal Engines later was able to fail on its own, so that may be more at fault then Barsoom).

    The latest Tarzan was the most cringe inducing concept I have seen in a long time. It somehow was simultaneously a Great Movie and a decent movie, but the two combined to be one horrible movie. I would be down for watching a Heart of Darkness movie starring Samuel L. Jackson discovering the atrocities of the Belgian Free State. I would be down for a pretty good Tarzan movie starring Alexander Skargard with a campy happy ending. But a Tarzan movie with one of the worst historical atrocities in recent history forming a semi-comedic backdrop? And giving it a happy ending, where Tarzan ends it all decades before it actually ended? Worst mashup ever. Both films seem to think that a straight adaptation of the setting won't hold audiences attention, so they combine it with something that jarringly doesn't match, and make the film much worse.
    Characters are built from within, not from without. Sure, external forces can roughly shape a person, but time and time again, what we've learned in both history and fiction is that a good character is written from within him/herself. L'Étranger isn't a seminal work of fiction because French Algeria is a great setting which affects our main character, but because the main protagonist is characterized from within from the very beginning of the book - he is The Stranger, even though he fits in perfectly well in his surroundings.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    Clark Ashton Smith is continuously cited as a major influence on some very big sf/f names - who here has read him?
    HP Lovecraft's creations live on in name and in homage (similar themed products/movies, including some famous ones) - who here has read him?
    Robert Howard's most known creation is Conan - but who has read his conan works, to say nothing of the huge body of other works in multiple genres he wrote in his short life?
    I have. And given than their works is continually reprinted, reissued, and collected constantly, I'd say there has to be at least a decent amount of people who still read it, it's not just grandpa repeatedly buying new copies of the same stuff.

  20. #20
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormcall View Post
    I have. And given than their works is continually reprinted, reissued, and collected constantly, I'd say there has to be at least a decent amount of people who still read it, it's not just grandpa repeatedly buying new copies of the same stuff.
    most sf/f readers I know haven't read it. a burroughs thread is by definition a skewed sample set too (I have read practically everything by everyone I posted, though some howard stories (non-fantasy) and some kuttner/moore stories I almost certainly have not seen in a bound book nor read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabrotar View Post
    I would say Fritz Leiber the author of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser is a good example as i read his books.
    agreed re f&gm, at this point they are pretty much in the same boat.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.

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