[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Thelxi]

I don't see the coin flip being about mad/not mad, but rather about being a blessing or blight upon the world. Burning people can be a strategic, rational decision if the goal is inspiring fear. Which for her it was, as evidenced by her conversation with Jon. You can call that mad as well, clearly no normal person would do that, but its a different kind of mad from seeing things that aren't there or ranting and raving. I would call it cruel, ruthless or evil instead. I think your right that there was emotion involved as well when the bells rang, but it wasn't the lunacy of a raving madman. It was the cruel and cold realization that her victory was not a sufficient payback for what had been done to her, she wanted more.

It wasn't a rational premeditated decision though. She only had a few frames of screen time, but they did clearly show her face when she found out the city surrendered, and you could clearly see the cogs turning. That is when she made the decision to burn a millions civilians alive for no apparent reason.

[Sorrowseer]

Man what a mess, the dragon breath was retarded, burning sure go ahead, literally blowing up entire battlements that weigh dozens of tons, gtfo with that garbage pfft.

What happened in the city was odd, what I mean by that is, what happened is very common, very very common, has happened many times in our own history, cities being pillaged, that is what it looks like (minus the obvious dragon), people are killed for no reason, people are raped and enslaved, that setting is real, what was odd in all this was the forced ' we don't need to do this, like the entire massacre is just a plot point for a few characters, so they make different decisions, like those lives didn't really matter, in the grand sceme it was just to set up the next episode and the political, and likely assassinating, that is to follow.

It was rather jarring and snort worthy, its hard to watch and harder to read modern peoples views on what happened, so many do not understand how common the massacre of a besieged city is, real life events are far more tragic that what happened in kings landing, the odd or rather stupid thing it was all just some character development and it really was not needed, ah such a pain, oh well.

[Gorsameth]

It seemed that she had decided before the battle that she was going to burn King's Landing to the ground. She reconsiders her plan when the bells ring, but decides she has to go through with her plan. Grey Wurm doesn't seem to be surprised when she starts burninating either.

And she isn't crazy. She is super pissed, but not crazy. Burning a whole city as a sign of force when no one seemed to want the welcome her as queen is a valid strategic decision. Burning a whole city because you think everyone is out to get you is paranoid and crazy.

"Here no one loves me"
Probably because all you've done here is burn people, how about you go free the people from tyranny to get them to love you, instead of turning into a tyrant to prove them right for not instantly and without reason fall before your feet.

The 'no one loves me' justification is stupid when she has done nothing to deserve such love in Westeros.

[Derah]

I'm not mad that Grey Worm commanded the unsullied to butcher the Lannister army. I'm not mad that Daenerys burned the Red Keep (And killed a bunch of civilians in the process).

I'm mad that Daenerys burned the entire city when it was completely out of character for her to do such a thing. I figured she'd do something like massacre the Lannister army after they surrendered, or burn the red keep while not really caring that civilians die (cause collateral damage). But instead they make her target innocent civilians out of absolutely no where when it is completely against everything she believes.


She went from good girl to literally more evil than Darth Vader in about... 0.2 seconds. Darth Vader still had some morals, but apparently Daeny suddenly does not. That is entirely out of character and bad writing.

I figured she'd go completely mad queen at some point and behave like a tyrant, but not actually butcher innocents with dragon fire.

Having her go from "ok let's listen to my advisors and be a bit careful even if I don't like it" to "let's literally murder everything I can murder yahooo" is just too jarring however. There's no nuance to that, she just completely jumped from anti-hero to the worst villain the show has ever seen, and there's going to be basically no moral complexity when Jon rightfully kills her.

She went full Ramsay, nay, worse than full Ramsay. That's just not very interesting in my books.

Nailed it.

What a shame. This is the best show I've ever seen in my life, but boy they really fucked up the ending. Danny going full mad queen doesn't make sense, given the characterization we've seen of her thus far.

Remember, this is the woman who, when sacking astapor, made it a point to her soldiers to kill anyone holding a sword, but to spare the women, the children and those who threw their weapons. This is the woman who, when seeing 160+ crucified children, decided to crucify an equal number of slavers to teach them a lesson.

And now, this same woman, for no real reason other than "because I'm angry", decided to roast alive hundreds of thousands of innocent men women and children. For no reason. I mean, it'd be one thing if she had roasted the Red Keep with everyone in it, because hey, gotta win the war. But she literally burned the entire city for no reason after they had surrendered. From the same woman who went into a murderous rage at seeing hundreds of children being crucified, to a woman who gleefully roasted thousands of children for no real reason. Within a single episode. FOR NO REAL REASON!!!!!!! (yes, I know I've said "for no reason" too many times, but its true dammit, there was no reason for this to happen)


They may as well have Jon flay a woman alive next episode and then rape her corpse, for all the sense it makes. I mean, if they really wanted their Mad Queen plot, they should have set it up better. Plant the seeds earlier. This came right the fuck out of nowhere. Someone who had these zero fucks to give about the people would have never marched north to save westeros from the night king.

Jaime's entire character was tossed out the window. His repulsion to everything cersei had become, his love for the people of king's landing (for whom he sacrificed his personal honor when the mad king ordered him to burn the entire city alive) all of it, just fucking burn it.

Even Cersei's death, the one silver lining I was looking forward to, was disappointing. I was hoping she'd die a more violent death. I was hoping for something nasty like Arya killing Jaime/qyburn and using their face to get close to her and slash at her throat whilst saying something ironic. I was hoping that maybe she'd be stripped naked and forced to take Drogon's fire to the face.

But no, she dies offscreen from falling rocks.

As others have stated, the only saving grace of this entire episode was Cleganebowl. They set up the expectations pretty high for it here, and they didn't disappoint.

I'll watch the final episode to put the show to rest, but as far as I'm concerned, the show ended in episode 3. And I'll wait for a more talented fanfic writer to come up with a better story to wrap the rest up.

Man, this is "Lost" and "Dexter" all over again. Why is it so hard for TV producers to come up with good endings for their shows?!?!?! At this point, the only show I've watched that has a good ending is Daredevil, and only because it was canceled before the fourth season could happen.

[Razzako]

It seemed that she had decided before the battle that she was going to burn King's Landing to the ground. She reconsiders her plan when the bells ring, but decides she has to go through with her plan. Grey Wurm doesn't seem to be surprised when she starts burninating either.

And she isn't crazy. She is super pissed, but not crazy. Burning a whole city as a sign of force when no one seemed to want the welcome her as queen is a valid strategic decision. Burning a whole city because you think everyone is out to get you is paranoid and crazy.

She seemed she had decided to do so, in the same episode (which is the point, that her sudden turnaround felt rushed, and uncharacteristic)... before hearing Tyrion's proposal about the bells IIRC.

I've been pissed off before, and so have you, and we don't end up killing anything let alone millions of innocents. It's a shitty example, but I don't think anyone has ever dared to excuse any of the recent public shooters because they were "pissed off". They were as insane as it can get and so is she.

Finally, a valid strategic decision, or an emotional decision? There was nothing strategic there.

[Ihavewaffles]

Man what a mess, the dragon breath was retarded, burning sure go ahead, literally blowing up entire battlements that weigh dozens of tons, gtfo with that garbage pfft.

What happened in the city was odd, what I mean by that is, what happened is very common, very very common, has happened many times in our own history, cities being pillaged, that is what it looks like (minus the obvious dragon), people are killed for no reason, people are raped and enslaved, that setting is real, what was odd in all this was the forced ' we don't need to do this, like the entire massacre is just a plot point for a few characters, so they make different decisions, like those lives didn't really matter, in the grand sceme it was just to set up the next episode and the political, and likely assassinating, that is to follow.

It was rather jarring and snort worthy, its hard to watch and harder to read modern peoples views on what happened, so many do not understand how common the massacre of a besieged city is, real life events are far more tragic that what happened in kings landing, the odd or rather stupid thing it was all just some character development and it really was not needed, ah such a pain, oh well.

Dude have you heard of Balerion the black?

[McNeil]

As if the dissapointment with the Night King wasn't enough, we didn't even get a proper battle between the Starks/Unsullied/Dothraki (who shouldn't even be that many in numbers) vs the Lannisters/Golden Company/Greyjoys. I don't even know where to start..

For some reason Euron's fleet was completely uncapable of shooting Drogon, who this time has many more ships and was actually prepared for him to come. None of the ballista's at the city walls coudln't hit him either. Why not shoot a bunch of arrows at once, so that you won't even give Drogon the room to dodge? Then Euron just goes for a brawl with Jaime while he knew he would get nothing out of it (though at this point I think he just lost his mind). And where was Yara this whole time? I would've liked to see her being involved with her brothers death somehow.

The Golden Company was much smaller than I expected, and they didn't even get to fight. They were hyped for being a huge mercenary army who were supposed to be with at least 20.000 men (I doubt that they were all there outside the gate).

The Cleganebowl was kinda cool if you can get past the obvious green screens, but the death of Qyburn was very dissapointing. Somehow I expected him to have a secret army of zombies ready to fight, and here you have him die by getting his head slammed to the wall.

Arya should've died like how many times by all the fire and rubble? I don't think I have enough fingers to count. And really what was the point of the drawn out fnal scene with her approaching the horse?

Jaime as a character is completely ruined. Cersei isn't much better either where all she did was looking out of the window and not do anything else. I expected her to have some extra trick behind her sleeve.

Daenarys turns out to be evil which shouldn't be a surprise to no one. Can't wait to see her die.

[ohiostate124]

31:40 Winds of Winter & Dreams of Spring books are both finished according to Ser Barristan Selmy




Seeing how I have my books as soft cover, I dearly want the whole collection in hard cover leatherbound..

I pray this is true.

[Grimbold21]

I mean, can't really say much other than I still don't find her "madness" or anger to be believable enough to destroy the capital.

She didn't break the wheel, she burned it.

[MakeMeLaugh]

I'm glad I'm an easily-pleased, simple man. I think the show is great. I don't have the refined tastes for all this "character development" or "quality writing".

Ignorance is bliss, yea. Once you evolve, there's no going back, so enjoy.

[Weeps]

Going from Breaker of Chains to Killer of Civilians

Full fucking retard by the show writers.

No matter how you spin it, it is not Dany-like.

It felt so contrived, so forced.

If you go back to the older seasons, you'd see she empathized strongly with the plight of plebeians suffering under various masters. She even empowered Missandei (yes, she could interpret but she was a slave).

now you're going to go and kill stuff ... just because?

Even a few minutes before hand, she says "I am not loved here, I am feared." You'd think you'd want to develop a reason to be loved, no?

The excuse of "Mad Targaryen" is so weak and came out of nowhere.

My wife asked me, "Why?"

I said, "The excuse is gonna be that she got a taste of the throne and wanted to decimate any opposition. Despite the fact they rang the bell to surrender. There will be nerds saying she went 'mad', weak excuse of shitty writing."

[Dug]

Disliked Ep 4 but this made up for it imo. And as far as anyone being shocked about Dany going mad then you really have not been paying attention.

[Gorsameth]

Dude have you heard of Balerion the black?

Its been a long time but there is a faint memory of the description of Harrenhall in the books, of stone that ran like water under the heat of the fire from Balerion.

I don't remember explosions tho, or pulverising meter thick walls with a single breath.

[P for Pancetta]

Totally out of character what Dany did. She's mad now and she did what her father planned on doing.
Like someone said earlier. Dany locked her dragons up for Drogon killing a child. Now she leveled an entire city and murdered thousands of innocents for no reason. She won the war, they surrendered. She didn't want to be queen of the ashes... she certainly became what she didn't want to be.

This whole season has seen Daenerys getting edgier and edgier. Everything that happened is weighing her down and has been slowly breaking her spirit. In the past the thing that stood beside Daenerys and making emotional and thoughtless actions where her advisers, this season every single one of those either died or lost her trust. While she was always a strong person everyone has a limit and hers has been reached, and her acting out in this way is in no way out of character.

[Gorsameth]

This whole season has seen Daenerys getting edgier and edgier. Everything that happened is weighing her down and has been slowly breaking her spirit. In the past the thing that stood beside Daenerys and making emotional and thoughtless actions where her advisers, this season every single one of those either died or lost her trust. While she was always a strong person everyone has a limit and hers has been reached, and her acting out in this way is in no way out of character.

Burning a million innocent people instead of the 1 person responsible is out of character.

Sure, go and burn the red keep to get Cersei and kill some innocents along the way. But what justification is there for the entire city?

[eschatological]

Dude have you heard of Balerion the black?

Balerion the Dread took a week to melt one castle (Harrenhal).

[Ihavewaffles]

Its been a long time but there is a faint memory of the description of Harrenhall in the books, of stone that ran like water under the heat of the fire from Balerion.

I don't remember explosions tho, or pulverising meter thick walls with a single breath.

Dude, melting the rock into f00kin lava is on another level, Drogon got nothing on Balerion

[ohiostate124]

Can someone explain to me why archers didn’t fuck up the entire northern army while they were camped right beneath the walls?

[Prokne]

I've been pissed off before, and so have you, and we don't end up killing anything let alone millions of innocents. It's a shitty example, but I don't think anyone has ever dared to excuse any of the recent public shooters because they were "pissed off". They were as insane as it can get and so is she.

I really wish people would stop thinking that everyone who has killed a bunch of people is crazy. Not all of these people are crazy, most of them are just evil because they take out their frustrations on others, have a warped understanding of their religion, think it will make them famous or any number of selfish reasons.

Finally, a valid strategic decision, or an emotional decision? There was nothing strategic there.

Would you rebel against someone you know could fly over your castle and burn it to the ground like it was nothing? How do you know this is what would happen? She has done it before to the biggest city on the continent. She made a plan to rule by fear and it is a valid strategy. Just because she chose that over another valid strategy because she was angry does not mean it isn't strategic.

[Tekkommo]

I don't think anyone is upset that Dany ended up being "mad".

It's how we got there, they did a shit job and rushed it this season, but still to actually do what she did, makes zero sense. She's always been a ruthless conqueror, but to do that, no logic.

Sure you can say, well mad people don't have any logic. But she went from destroying all the military defences, which was strategic of her, and then after they surrender, she's like fuck it lol, you all die. Apart from fireproof Arya.

The mad king was driven mad over many years of paranoia. You don't just flick a switch and go full on mad in a second.

Maybe she's been mad for a while, as listening to shit advice by Tyrion and Varys, dropping all your plans to go deal with the NK, before taking KL, was indeed mad.