[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[xcess]

Having Jon snow on the throne isnt safe too, hes got some mad Targaryen genes too

[PACOX]

Type this into your brain and see if it'll process it: If they have the money to make multiple spinoffs, they have the money to do more seasons.

Not really. Cast and crew get more expensive as time goes by. A spin-off might be in the same universe but everyone involved at the ground level is a lot cheaper with fresh contracts.

But it's really about execs and agents squeezing revenue for all they can.

[Celista]

Not really. Cast and crew get more expensive as time goes by. A spin-off might be in the same universe but everyone involved at the ground level is a lot cheaper with fresh contracts.

But it's really about execs and agents squeezing revenue for all they can.

Usually actors are ready to move on as their career can become stagnant if they stay with a show too long, in part due to risk of becoming typecast for roles. Which makes me worry about the Supernatural boys.

[PACOX]

Having Jon snow on the throne isnt safe too, hes got some mad Targaryen genes too

The genes seemed to have skipped his real father and he has that Stark blood. He was also raised never expecting a title.

Dany on the other hand thinks the world was made for her to be on the throne, she is just later to her own party.

[Kickbuttmario]

I swear I feel like I'm the only one that checked out after season 4. I never read the books but I figured the way they did their dialogue and the overall pace of the show was something that felt like it came out of the books. Season 5 and onward, nope. Felt more actiony.

[therealstegblob]

Good catch. They could have explained it with one line of dialogue (death of the NK impacting the weather, perhaps?) but didn't, due to this I can only assume this is a coffee cup-esque derp on the show's part.

It's not even that, winter was like literally the whole overarching issue in the entire fucking series and now apparently it doesn't matter at all?

[Varjo410]

It's almost like people have never ever seen a character snap just like that over grief or lust for vengeance.

[kail]

It's almost like people have never ever seen a character snap just like that over grief or lust for vengeance.

What's with this comparison to Dark Knight's Dent? Dent snapped from a traumatic experience (dead gf) and some encouragement of the Joker. His transition was far more fleshed out than Danny's who decides to go from Westeros savior to w/e that was in the episode. She has always been ruthless since season 1, punishing those who have done her wrong. Harvey even did the same in the Dark Knight, punish those responsible with 50/50 forgiveness chance.

That line does not apply to her city-wide massacre.

[Zaktar]

I don't think anyone has a problem with the characterization of making Dany the "mad queen," at least I hope not. I think the problem was with the line she crossed. If she had gone to the Red Keep, and Cersei had stacked the place with civvies, and Dany burned them all to get to Cersei, that'd be a natural progression of her just not giving a fuck and being more like Aerys.

But she literally snapped, and killed thousands of innocent, unarmed peasants. Narratively, that can be a valid character progression, sure. But, in terms of this narrative, it goes completely against her previous sympathies, but more importantly, it makes the narrative boring and two dimensional. She's a cartoon villain now, who cannot be allowed to sit on the Throne. She has surpassed anything Aerys ever did, with a snap of the fingers.

The first scenario (her burning the Red Keep with civilians in it) is the standard for GoT - have something that is a matter of perspective. Some would absolutely claim she's mad and evil for doing that - others could justify her actions. Jon could then witness her growing paranoia and insanity in private, much like Jaime witnessed Aerys disintegrating. And then the cycle continues again, because as humans, we don't learn. The game of thrones begins anew, with Jon taking the place of Ned, and perhaps seating someone like Tyrion on the throne who is a decently liked king but has enemies everywhere. Except this storyline would have only made sense with the ever-present threat that Winter is Coming, but oh well.


P.S. I guess winter is just done now? It was snowing in KL when Jaime left, I guess......what, we're back to regular seasons now? I guess it would be too much to hope for some lore about the elongated seasons in the show.

They weren't innocent, they had betrayed her. They sought shelter with her enemy. Moreover she had a specific problem which she needed to solve - who is undisputed ruler? You can throw your weight behind the slightly better claimant - a waffling twat who continuously turns on his own supporters and can't lead his most loyal soldiers, or the one who turns cities which don't obey her into ash. Which do you choose?

She is a ruthless conqueror, well established as one, and acted like one. She isn't #triggered by the babies she killed, she said herself that she was carrying out a greater good. It's not at all out of character for her, nor is it insane - just fucking evil.

Edit: not to say that she won't quickly be overthrown, seems pretty obvious that that is where this is leading.

[Kellorion]

Having Jon snow on the throne isnt safe too, hes got some mad Targaryen genes too

And when have they ever flared?

[Logwyn]

They weren't innocent, they had betrayed her. They sought shelter with her enemy. Moreover she had a specific problem which she needed to solve - who is undisputed ruler? You can throw your weight behind the slightly better claimant - a waffling twat who continuously turns on his own supporters and can't lead his most loyal soldiers, or the one who turns cities which don't obey her into ash. Which do you choose?

She is a ruthless conqueror, well established as one, and acted like one. She isn't #triggered by the babies she killed, she said herself that she was carrying out a greater good. It's not at all out of character for her, nor is it insane - just fucking evil.

Edit: not to say that she won't quickly be overthrown, seems pretty obvious that that is where this is leading.

She has to kill Tyrion now. Last Lannister left he has claim since Cersi is dead. Daey has to pluck them out root and stem. Tyrion has to go!

The men of the north remember the red wedding and what the Lannisters did. The North remembers!!!!

I think the biggest problem is that the real-time length to get to this point. All of the Lannister plotting and murders of innocents have been forgotten.... They were surrendering well in the same place the Lannisters would have slaughtered their enemies. They've done it time and time again.

And wait.... All those innocent people in King's Landing where were they when the Night King came calling at the door to end all humanity? Safe and warm in Kings Landing.

[Chelly]

I don't know how many times it has to be said - people aren't angry over Dany going mad. They are mad at how rushed and forced it was. Just like with Arya killing the NK.

More episodes and different writers would have fixed it.

[Priestiality]

Dany has always been this just none of you gave a shit before because her madness was aimed at objectively bad people.

[Zaktar]

I don't know how many times it has to be said - people aren't angry over Dany going mad. They are mad at how rushed and forced it was. Just like with Arya killing the NK.

More episodes and different writers would have fixed it.

Some are mad about what you're describing, others are mad that she turned at all. To me it didn't feel 1/5th as rushed or forced as, say, the Clegane fight; Queen of Ashes has been coming for a long time and her thinking and choices seemed fairly well ordered. Were people not listening to the conversations she was having?

[eschatological]

They weren't innocent, they had betrayed her. They sought shelter with her enemy. Moreover she had a specific problem which she needed to solve - who is undisputed ruler? You can throw your weight behind the slightly better claimant - a waffling twat who continuously turns on his own supporters and can't lead his most loyal soldiers, or the one who turns cities which don't obey her into ash. Which do you choose?

She is a ruthless conqueror, well established as one, and acted like one. She isn't #triggered by the babies she killed, she said herself that she was carrying out a greater good. It's not at all out of character for her, nor is it insane - just fucking evil.

Edit: not to say that she won't quickly be overthrown, seems pretty obvious that that is where this is leading.

That is the weakest bullshit justification I've ever heard. They're smallfolk, they don't care who is on the throne. They have more pressing concerns, like how to survive day to day. They're not complicit in Cersei's crimes in any way. GRRM dedicated a whole book to this in the series, A Feast for Crows. The High Sparrow storyline, Lancel Lannister, the priest The Hound hung out with last season, the Brotherhood without Banners, they were all supposed to illustrate this storyline, but Dumb & Dumber turned the High Sparrow plotline into something about religious zealotry, and killed off The Hound's time off in the country in an episode.

They didn't seek shelter with her enemy. They literally LIVED there. And as peasants, they often can't just up and move.

Your justification is like saying the German people should have been wiped off the map because of the Nazis - and even then, the comparison is bad, because the Nazis pervaded society much more deeply than Cersei does.

[Drosul]

They had a way of salvaging this season "Daenarys turns bad" arc that I saw on reddit (might have been here honestly)...

Basically, leave Rhaegal alive instead of him dying to Jack Sparrow last episode.... Let the bells ring AND THEN have some renegade soldier shoot the last scorpion and murder Rhaegal.... Dany loses her mind watching her kid die, and burns the city to the ground in the moment.


Sadly we're beyond that now... and the only way to redeem the show NOW:

We saw that Bran can effectively influence the past, when he calls out to Young Ned at the Tower of Joy. We've also seen that this is a CLOSED LOOP system. Bran isn't changing the past, but rather fulfilling whatever his role in it was. So what if every single time he was greenseeing recently, he was doing it with the express purpose of driving Daenarys crazy? The leaks put him as the one who takes "the throne" (it's really a council, but he's apparently more or less the guy in charge of it). What if everything he's doing was literally just some Machiavellian scheme to get himself (specifically the 3ER) in charge? He's the Keyzer Soze of the whole series, manipulating everyone, even across time, to take power for himself.

[Zaktar]

That is the weakest bullshit justification I've ever heard. They're smallfolk, they don't care who is on the throne. They have more pressing concerns, like how to survive day to day. They're not complicit in Cersei's crimes in any way. GRRM dedicated a whole book to this in the series, A Feast for Crows. The High Sparrow storyline, Lancel Lannister, the priest The Hound hung out with last season, the Brotherhood without Banners, they were all supposed to illustrate this storyline, but Dumb & Dumber turned the High Sparrow plotline into something about religious zealotry, and killed off The Hound's time off in the country in an episode.

They didn't seek shelter with her enemy. They literally LIVED there. And as peasants, they often can't just up and move.

Your justification is like saying the German people should have been wiped off the map because of the Nazis - and even then, the comparison is bad, because the Nazis pervaded society much more deeply than Cersei does.

Yes, it is a terrible and evil way of looking at it. It is also how that character was looking at things, which is why her decision was not a surprise.

[eschatological]

Yes, it is a terrible and evil way of looking at it. It is also how that character was looking at things, which is why her decision was not a surprise.

But that is an irrational "snap" into madness. Whcih, as I said earlier, is a narrative choice, but a weak one in this case. It is 1) unjustified by her previous sympathies with these very kind of folk, and 2) makes her a cartoonish villain with no nuance, no justification, no remorse for when someone, likely Jon, inevitably has to kill her and remove her from power.

[Derah]

I don't know how many times it has to be said - people aren't angry over Dany going mad. They are mad at how rushed and forced it was. Just like with Arya killing the NK.

More episodes and different writers would have fixed it.

Actually I'm angry at both.

Them turning her into the bad guy, and the VERY sloppy way they did it.

This is Sylvanas all over again, but multiplied by a thousand. Because Sylvanas at least had demonstrated how horrible she could be in the past.

Compare and Contrast to the Journey from hero to villain that Walter White goes through on Breaking Bad. It took several seasons for him to morph from the sympathetic, harmless, nerdy, somewhat endearing little dweeb he was on the first episode, to the full blown psychopath he was by season 5.

Danny went from Varian, to Gul'dan within the span of a single episode.

[Pannonian]

Do i think Daenarys skips a few steps in character development? Yes.

But what really annoyed me:

Scorpions. I was literally shaking my head for 5 minutes when all of the scorpions just go puff. Really? I know Dany destroys everything this episode, but also logic?

What annoys me way more: Pushing Jon as the "better" king.

Isn't one of the messages of the whole story that honorable man are bad rulers? Now all of a sudden, this is what we want. Especially for Jon: He already was a ruler, and not a good one. Didn't see the plot coming and died!

If this is now the new message "honorable man are the perfect rulers" - we could have ended the whole series in episode 7 with Ned arresting Cersei and a happy ending.