Trump's 25% on Chinese goods will hurt American Consumers.

[rda]

What the fuck is this trade war about?

This trade war is about the dishonest practices of the Chinese.

Yes, Trump seems to think it is also about correcting trade deficit, and he is wrong here and deserves all the criticism he gets for that. But there is a real reason, too.

[Thekri]

Trump will back down and do a face saving deal he needs to get elected again in 2020 to stay out of jail Xi does not.

This is the biggest problem I have with it. I actually agree with the goals here. This is probably the only issue Trump is pursuing that I actually agree with. He is correct that China isn't playing fair, and he is right that we have to do something drastic to stop it.

Unfortunately I disagree with basically all of the execution. Largely because he fired everyone that isn't a sycophant, and Trump is the worst deal maker ever. First of all, we went at this alone, which is insane. We should be doing this with Europe, Australia, Canada, Mexico, Japan, India, and South Korea all at our side. All of them have to deal with this crap too, and a united front could force China to fold in weeks. As it is, China can use this to cut the US out of the markets, since we are standing alone on this. Then there is the bigger issue, which you brought up. America doesn't want to sustain this, and Trump doesn't have the spine to stick it out. If this does wind up hurting the economy, he will cave for some meaningless concession, then claim victory. He will claim he fixed all the problems, and everything is fair now, and we will be right were we started. (He will probably get a new tower in Shanghai or something though)

Still, since we started this I am all in favor of supporting Trump on this one and demanding he stick it out. Backing down is the worst thing we could do now. Because the US can handle this better then China can economically, we just don't want to socially. In for a penny, in for a pound, and this can still work if we hold our ground. We won't get everything we want, but we could potentially get some good concessions on pricing and intellectual property. I am skeptical it will work, but it certainly won't if everyone in the US wants Trump to back down (Which is what the media is pushing hard right now)

[DKjaigen]

China has a 300 billion deficit in service, despite their 400 billion production surplus. US unemployment is at 3.6%, when 4.1% is full employment. China literally has suicide nets, due to the working conditions in their production. What the fuck is this trade war about?

1 subsidized industries deliberately done to bankrupt non Chinese industries

2. The bullshit that you need to hand over every single patent if you want to business in china

trade war is an excellent tool to bring theses fuckers to heel even if it sucks at the moment

[Vash The Stampede]

Yes they were because democracy plus capitalism (who go hand in hand since the US is pushing it) in those environments lead to rampant corruption, poverty, civil unrest and revolutions. Let them get there on their own capitalism by itself is a disease it needs strong government to regulate it.

But capitalism is the corruption and capitalism would love nothing more than to remove democracy because democracy gives power to those without money. Democracy is the reason why we have regulations for things like waste disposal, worker rights, and welfare. You know what you get when you have a country with capitalism and no democracy? You get China, where the people there have no rights and wear masking to keep the smog out of their lungs.

[Breccia]

This is probably the only issue Trump is pursuing that I actually agree with.

Opioids.

But the same can be said there: big sales pitch for a flawed or non-existent product.

But to the rest of your point, I don't think it's realistic that China will back down. At least, not soon. I'm sure most of us here agree that we're not big fans of Chinese lack of ethics and that their companies make a literal and figurative killing. But they have means, motive, and opportunity here to delay until at least 2021, and the harder they fight back, the better their odds are of coming out on top -- either because Trump will have to make major concessions just to survive, or because Biden will try something other than "national security lol". Worse, that WTO case could come crashing down and destroy the only tool Trump seems to think exists. And, if you check today's news, even Trump is starting to back away from his One Obese Size Fits All routine. The 25% tariffs on imported cars just got delayed 6 months, and more than likely, he did it because the stock market wasn't his friend the last couple of days and he needs those numbers back. He knows what tariffs do to the American consumer, and why they're hated. He just lies about it.

Maybe taking a hard line on China will work, maybe not. But it's looking less and less like Trump will be the one who wins, and quite frankly, it's his fault. He had other options and chose not to use them. If you wander into a troll lair with only a longsword+1 and magic missile, I can think of 10 reasons per second that you're not going to have a good time.

EDIT: For more information, this Vox article called "Trump’s puzzling trade war with China, sort of explained" is worth a look. They even find this study which Trump might maybe? be referencing in a tweet, claiming that China will pay 21% of the 25% increase. Even that most flattering result is still misrepresented by Trump, and it's an outlier.

[Vash The Stampede]

@Vash The Stampede

All the arrows are pointing down, so doesn't that mean the prices are going down? I don't see a problem with this. Anyway, most of our food doesn't come from China but grown right here, so it shouldn't be effected by tariffs. Processed food sure, but that shit isn't good for us anyway. Might also remove a good deal of the plastic food that China sometimes sends us.

[Elegiac]

All the arrows are pointing down, so doesn't that mean the prices are going down? I don't see a problem with this. Anyway, most of our food doesn't come from China but grown right here, so it shouldn't be effected by tariffs. Processed food sure, but that shit isn't good for us anyway. Might also remove a good deal of the plastic food that China sometimes sends us.

Pst: Cheaper food means the government has to increase agricultural subsidies in order to keep farmers solvent. So either this means an increase in taxes or we start seeing a lot of people defaulting on their finances in the midwest.

It balances out in the end, but at the cost of considerable suffering in the meantime where doing nothing would have served as well. Folly.

[Vash The Stampede]

Only Retail Stores have gone down, E-Commerce and total spent have been up.

Amazon announced they have slowing growth and Christmas eve of 2018 is when the stock market plummeted. Everyone was worried when the Dow Jones plummeted by 700 points the other day but it's nothing compared to the holiday season of 2018. Though it has somewhat recovered since. The price of cars have been going up but sales doesn't exist.

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Pst: Cheaper food means the government has to increase agricultural subsidies in order to keep farmers solvent. So either this means an increase in taxes or we start seeing a lot of people defaulting on their finances in the midwest.

It balances out in the end, but at the cost of considerable suffering in the meantime where doing nothing would have served as well. Folly.

So price of food goes up and the people suffer but if the price of food goes down then the farmers suffer and we HAVE* to give them subsidies? If this system isn't working then we should stop subsidizing farmers and let them deal with it. If they can't then the government should buy the farm land and make it a public service. The tax payers shouldn't pay you tax money to be able to buy your food, because that's double dipping. Cut out the middle man who is looking to make a profit and make it into a public service.

[Elegiac]

So price of food goes up and the people suffer but if the price of food goes down then the farmers suffer and we HAVE* to give them subsidies? If this system isn't working then we should stop subsidizing farmers and let them deal with it. If they can't then the government should buy the farm land and make it a public service. The tax payers shouldn't pay you tax money to be able to buy your food, because that's double dipping. Cut out the middle man who is looking to make a profit and make it into a public service.

They tried that. Forced collectivization of agriculture dun work too well.

[Pannonian]

Aside from the fact liberal democracies increase human prosperity, they also heavily reduce the chance of going to war with each other. Democracy would make it so that Chinese people could change their government without violence, which leads to geo-political stability.

So... 25% on oil until Saudi Arabia becomes a liberal democracy?

[Rasulis]

Why do some people enjoy trade deficits with a country that has poised our children's toys with lead paint and our baby food with melanoma? Are they worried about Apples profit margin if they can't continue to get shitty iphones made with slave like labor?

Apple's products are exempted from this round and the previous round of tariff.

[Breccia]

d goes up and the people suffer but if the price of food goes down then the farmers suffer and we HAVE* to give them subsidies?

That's an oversimplification of economics in a nutshell, yes. High prices = good for seller, low prices = good for buyer.

"But don't prices wander all the time?"

Yes, and people die all the time. But if I go into Mobile, AL and blow up a Wal-Mart on Black Friday, I'm still one of history's greatest mass murderers. Trump did the economic variant here, causing prices to suddenly spike without anything to offset costs. Hell, we've allocated (not distributed) $12 billion so far of American taxpayer money, and while Trump is still lying and saying it's Chinese, he's said $15 billion more are on the way. That's $27 billion, or $135 per taxpayer (regressive too), that you're paying for that 3% drop in corn prices. Not exactly a Blue Light Special (intentionally dated use).

The tariffs didn't make owning or running a farm any cheaper, only lowered the prices of what they grew. That's why Trump promised $12 billion already and wants to take $15 billion of Chinese *cough* American taxpayer money he's pretending is Chinese money to keep the farmers going. Farms are already declaring bankruptcy in record numbers -- the floods aren't helping that -- and you're paying to make it slow down.

In the meantime, yes, we the American consumer get to benefit from these lower prices. Hope you like tofu.

Also: North Carolina grows them some fine-ass medium-grain rice. Y'all should check it out.

[Rasulis]

North Carolina grows them some fine-ass medium-grain rice. Y'all should check it out.

We only buy Jasmine rice from Thailand or Indonesia. American rice is ugh.

[ABEEnr2]

Omg it's obvious I'm referring to voting and representation and not just direct democracy. Republics are good too.

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None of those failed because of democracy though. They failed either because they didn't choose good policies or because of violent people.

Lets be honest here, Iraq under Saddam was far better then what it is today and same goes to Libya under Qaddafi.

"They failed either because they didn't choose good policies or because of violent people."
Yeah...press X for doubt

[Breccia]

We only buy Jasmine rice from Thailand or Indonesia. American rice is ugh.

Agree to disagree. But I'm biased, I've been there. Also I like shorter rice.

On topic: the damage is already being felt as both retail, and production, in April showed weak growth at best, at least in context. China's retail grew 7.2% when they were predicted to grow 8.7%. Ours actually fell 0.2% when they were expected to rise 0.2%. Production had the same rough idea: China's rose but not as much as expected, ours was expected to rise but instead fell. Obviously, that's one month, but the year's not looking great. The same article predicts 2.4%, which Trump will probably blame on Zika.

Trump has also punted car tariffs six months, which is an interesting strategy when the only option you use is tariffs and you claim they're working enough to feed starving children in hungry nations MAGA!

[Vash The Stampede]

That's an oversimplification of economics in a nutshell, yes. High prices = good for seller, low prices = good for buyer.

That's all that people should care about. Not my job to keep your business profitable.

The tariffs didn't make owning or running a farm any cheaper, only lowered the prices of what they grew. That's why Trump promised $12 billion already and wants to take $15 billion of Chinese *cough* American taxpayer money he's pretending is Chinese money to keep the farmers going. Farms are already declaring bankruptcy in record numbers -- the floods aren't helping that -- and you're paying to make it slow down.

Then it isn't a sustainable business model and the government should buy up the farm land and run it themselves. Can't keep giving businesses socialism to benefit the wealthy. Might as use socialism to benefit society instead.

In the meantime, yes, we the American consumer get to benefit from these lower prices. Hope you like tofu.

I each Spinach and Broccoli specifically.

[Rasulis]

That's all that people should care about. Not my job to keep your business profitable.


Then it isn't a sustainable business model and the government should buy up the farm land and run it themselves. Can't keep giving businesses socialism to benefit the wealthy. Might as use socialism to benefit society instead.

I each Spinach and Broccoli specifically.

Since those mostly come from CA, TX, AZ and Mexico, their prices should not be affected by the trade war. I can understand the price of soybean, corn and sorghum going down, but rice? Why? I don't want to sound insulting, but to most Asian, American rice is ugh. We'll eat it only if we absolutely have no other option. Even my Midwest blonde wife would not eat American rice. She prefers Jasmine, Basmanti or Koshihikari.

[Draco-Onis]

But capitalism is the corruption and capitalism would love nothing more than to remove democracy because democracy gives power to those without money. Democracy is the reason why we have regulations for things like waste disposal, worker rights, and welfare. You know what you get when you have a country with capitalism and no democracy? You get China, where the people there have no rights and wear masking to keep the smog out of their lungs.

But you can't just snap your fingers like the US wants and establish democracy in a country that has run on another system that takes decades which is why it always ends up a mess. You cannot copy and paste the American model to every country it simply doesn't work.

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All the arrows are pointing down, so doesn't that mean the prices are going down? I don't see a problem with this. Anyway, most of our food doesn't come from China but grown right here, so it shouldn't be effected by tariffs. Processed food sure, but that shit isn't good for us anyway. Might also remove a good deal of the plastic food that China sometimes sends us.

Most of these are food we sell to the Chinese that's why we are now spending billions of dollars to keep farmers afloat, Trump just asked for another 15 billion. We are nearing 30+ billions in farm subsidies and it's not enough to keep them afloat China is now getting these products from other countries. Once those trade lines are established the US will not get it back, we are basically weaning off the Chinese off America and it's costing us billions.

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This is the biggest problem I have with it. I actually agree with the goals here. This is probably the only issue Trump is pursuing that I actually agree with. He is correct that China isn't playing fair, and he is right that we have to do something drastic to stop it.

Unfortunately I disagree with basically all of the execution. Largely because he fired everyone that isn't a sycophant, and Trump is the worst deal maker ever. First of all, we went at this alone, which is insane. We should be doing this with Europe, Australia, Canada, Mexico, Japan, India, and South Korea all at our side. All of them have to deal with this crap too, and a united front could force China to fold in weeks. As it is, China can use this to cut the US out of the markets, since we are standing alone on this. Then there is the bigger issue, which you brought up. America doesn't want to sustain this, and Trump doesn't have the spine to stick it out. If this does wind up hurting the economy, he will cave for some meaningless concession, then claim victory. He will claim he fixed all the problems, and everything is fair now, and we will be right were we started. (He will probably get a new tower in Shanghai or something though)

Still, since we started this I am all in favor of supporting Trump on this one and demanding he stick it out. Backing down is the worst thing we could do now. Because the US can handle this better then China can economically, we just don't want to socially. In for a penny, in for a pound, and this can still work if we hold our ground. We won't get everything we want, but we could potentially get some good concessions on pricing and intellectual property. I am skeptical it will work, but it certainly won't if everyone in the US wants Trump to back down (Which is what the media is pushing hard right now)

Trump will back down he does not have the balls to stick through with this during an election year, China can use the US as a scapegoat and Trump's own words as propaganda. In the long term this will be the biggest trade disaster in US history mark my words, I don't see a scenario where Trump doesn't just declare victory but we get screwed anyways.

[Flower Milk]

https://www.newsweek.com/farmer-trum...-trade-1426485

Larry Angler, a farmer in Iowa, voted for President Donald Trump in 2016. Now, he says he does not plan to vote for him again because of massive economic losses he expects to incur due to the escalating trade war with China.

Speaking to CNN for an interview aired Wednesday, the Iowan said he expects his family will lose about $100,000 to $150,000 as a result of the trade dispute between Washington and Beijing. When asked by the CNN correspondent if he voted for Trump, Angler was quick to respond:

“I did! I’ll never vote for him again!”

Other Iowan farmers interviewed by CNN also expressed frustration with the president, as well as skepticism about his ability to improve trade ties with China.

“He’d better hurry up and start producing a little bit,” said farmer Greg Beaman. “Because this negotiation I’m seeing so far has not panned out.”

Robert Ewoldt told CNN he has been able to keep his farm afloat only by working a second job as a truck driver. “This is survival at this point. I mean, for a lot of operations it is a survival thing,” he said. Ewoldt added that he voted for Trump and now has regrets.

Lol he's losing supporters over this.

[Thestrawman]

Lest we forget the big flood that cost Midwest farmers billions of dollars was because of Trump and his idiotic trade war. All that produce would have gone to China but since the trade war, they just sat in storage until they were ruined. So unlike the idiot above saying farming isn't viable because we have to bail them out. It's more like Trump trying to not lose all his supports because "Trade Wars are easy".