[Concept] Tinkerer Class

[Teriz]

Yeah... that doesn't make it a fit for a tinker class. The class has to fit the expansion's theme, not the starting hub. The the demon hunter class, for example: they fit the expansion theme (Burning Legion) but not the expansion hub (Dalaran). Death knights fit the expansion theme (undead) but not the expansion hubs (Orgrimmar/Stormwind).

And I'm sure Blizzard will have no problem making the Tinker class fit in such an expansion.

[Ielenia]

And I'm sure Blizzard will have no problem making the Tinker class fit in such an expansion.

It doesn't work that way. If you want to sell your idea, you need to explain it, and respond to criticism. You can't simply name-drop and say "Blizzard will figure it out".

If you're so sure it "fits" the expansion theme, then explain how it does.

Not to mention one of your main criticisms against the Bard class idea is "how will it fit in an expansion?" and you don't accept "Blizzard will figure it out" as an answer, which means you're engaging in double-standards here.

[Nnyco]

Yeah, gnome and goblin and maybe dwarves. That's it.

Orcs, esspecially mag'har orcs, draenai and blood elves?

[JohnTWQ]

Im all up for tinker/alchemist/inventor class but please do not call it "tinkerER"...

I heard one day someone said Tinkeron

[Teriz]

It doesn't work that way. If you want to sell your idea, you need to explain it, and respond to criticism. You can't simply name-drop and say "Blizzard will figure it out".

If you're so sure it "fits" the expansion theme, then explain how it does.

Not to mention one of your main criticisms against the Bard class idea is "how will it fit in an expansion?" and you don't accept "Blizzard will figure it out" as an answer, which means you're engaging in double-standards here.

Yeah, I have no desire to try to "sell" or "explain" an expansion concept to you. You have proven that you have no intention of being an honest participant in such a discussion.

The simple fact is this, if a Tinker class is coming, Blizzard will make it fit into the expansion one way or the other.

[Triceron]

I didn't say it was about wanting Tinkers and Undermine. I'm saying that its about people wanting something new and different, not rehashes of old stuff. That's probably part of the reason the Tinker class concept dominated that poll I posted.

Undermine isnt a solution. You've managed to make a connection to a zone, but that is not an expansion theme. Tinkers have no connection to the rest of the places or things you've mentioned. Undermine and Blingtron Wars is the only thing that can tie Tinkers to am expansion, and as I said, its a hard sell.

Besides, a new expansion with a new class would be new and different regardless of the class added. People simply like having a connection to expansion themes to justify rolling one, thats about it. Otherwise a class stands on its own merit, and thats the Tinkers biggest strength as well as its biggest weakness - being too unique. Great for gameplay, terrible for thematic connection to the world.

[Traycor]

Yeah, gnome and goblin and maybe dwarves. That's it.

Blood Elf engineers in WCIII.

[Ielenia]

Yeah, I have no desire to try to "sell" or "explain" an expansion concept to you. You have proven that you have no intention of being an honest participant in such a discussion.

This is heavily ironic coming from the the guy who continues to dishonestly employ double-standards and strawman arguments in his posts.

The simple fact is this, if a Tinker class is coming

Nothing but wishful thinking. The tinker class has been "coming" since Classic wow. Seven expansions down the line, and so far the "tinker" has nothing to show other than re-runs of the "it's coming" arguments.

Blizzard will make it fit into the expansion one way or the other.

This is nothing but objective proof of your double-standards.

You're nothing, Teriz. You're no one special. You saying "tinkers are coming" have the same weight as anyone else saying "tinkers are not coming". You stomping your foot, using arguments based in faulty logic and/or dishonest misrepresentation of other people's arguments does not change that fact, does not give your opinions any more weight. If anything, it gives you less credibility at face value.

[Neverafter]

Orcs, esspecially mag'har orcs, draenai and blood elves?

This brings up a point I have wanted to see discussed for a while.

Why Orcs? I don't see the connection between orcs and technology. Atleast, not from themselves.

Every case of "orcish" technology I can think of has been made by goblins. Even Garrosh took goblins with him to alternate Draenor for the Iron Horde.

In the opening scenerio of Warlords, the dwarf fixing the seige engine to destroy the Dark Portal even says something about "Remind me never to drive a tank built by an Orc".

Anyway, I don't see the Orcish technology connection independent of goblins.

That said, I can also see Blizzard opening it up anyway, just for the sake of not alienating people who have a severe distaste of goblins.

[Teriz]

Undermine isnt a solution. You've managed to make a connection to a zone, but that is not an expansion theme. Tinkers have no connection to the rest of the places or things you've mentioned. Undermine and Blingtron Wars is the only thing that can tie Tinkers to am expansion, and as I said, its a hard sell.

Besides, a new expansion with a new class would be new and different regardless of the class added. People simply like having a connection to expansion themes to justify rolling one, thats about it. Otherwise a class stands on its own merit, and thats the Tinkers biggest strength as well as its biggest weakness - being too unique. Great for gameplay, terrible for thematic connection to the world.

Not really. A return to Northrend would be a rehash of WotLK. A Dragon-based expansion would be a rehash of Cataclysm.

An expansion taking place underground to finally take the fight to the Old Gods and saving the heart of the planet? That's something new.

IF Tinkers are the next class, I have full confidence in Blizzard to make whatever expansion they appear in to relate to the class one way or another. Having Tinkers fit into an expansion is actually one of the least issues with bringing that class into the game.

[Ielenia]

Not really. A return to Northrend would be a rehash of WotLK. A Dragon-based expansion would be a rehash of Cataclysm.

And Legion was a """"rehash of TBC"""" and yet it's regarded as a good expansion with overall positive reviews.

[Triceron]

Not really. A return to Northrend would be a rehash of WotLK. A Dragon-based expansion would be a rehash of Cataclysm.

An expansion taking place underground to finally take the fight to the Old Gods and saving the heart of the planet? That's something new.

Yeah but the examples you gave were not a Dragon based Cataclysm expansion or Lich King 2.0. You gave a bunch of ideas that fit other classes better than a Tinker would. You would literally have to stretch a connection to tie Tinkers to anything else.

Azjol nerub - Immediate connection to Necromancers and the Scourge, who were the ones able to take down the entire empire. What do Tinkers have to do with Nerubians?

Heart of Azeroth - Empowered by the Dragons. The artifact itself is a perfect macguffin for Dragonsworn. It can be used to fight Old
Gods. I'm not even sure what Tinkers have to do with the Heart of Azeroth honestly, as someone who isn't playing the game.

Black Empire - Fighting Old Gods. Dragonsworn is an immediate choice, being direct opposers to Old Gods (War of the Shifting Sands, Cataclysm). Dark Rangers also have a connection now through Sylvanas and Xalatath. What do Tinkers bring again? Oh, Tech doesn't get corrupted by old god magic? Good thing Mechs don't expose their pilots then right?

IF Tinkers are the next class, I have full confidence in Blizzard to make whatever expansion they appear in to relate to the class one way or another. Having Tinkers fit into an expansion is actually one of the least issues with bringing that class into the game.

Well, that's like saying if you're already have a Blizzcon ticket, then flying to Blizzcon is the least of your problems. Of course it's the least of the problems, but you have to find a ticket first.

It's almost obvious they are one of the runners up to be chosen, and there is a lot of support behind the concept. But the simple act of adding them means taking the same route that lead them to Monks being made, and treading the same pitfalls. I'd like to think they're working towards tackling those issues with Mechagon, using it as a testbed to gauge player interest in tech stuff, and hopefully easing players into a full-on tech-based hub with Undermine. That would be amazing.

[Fetus Rex]

Yeah... that doesn't make it a fit for a tinker class. The class has to fit the expansion's theme, not the starting hub. The the demon hunter class, for example: they fit the expansion theme (Burning Legion) but not the expansion hub (Dalaran). Death knights fit the expansion theme (undead) but not the expansion hubs (Orgrimmar/Stormwind).


It's highly unlikely that Undermine would be a neutral faction hub, considering the Alliance has subterranean options of their own, with dwarves and earthen. And, I imagine, aren't the goblin princes basically at odds with each other despite them all being part of a "coalition", considering how goblins "politicts" go? I mean, one Trade Prince decided a good way to get money was to sell their own as slaves. And now said Trade Prince is a faction leader within the Horde...

- - - Updated - - -


Orcs, draenei, blood elves and humans. At least.

Orcs, esspecially mag'har orcs, draenai and blood elves?

Blood Elf engineers in WCIII.

But is an engineer the same as tinker? Those guys are specialists.

[Ielenia]

But is an engineer the same as tinker? Those guys are specialists.

Source on that claim? Because nothing in the game even remotely suggests that, and real life definitions put 'tinker' way below 'engineer' in the 'specialist' scale.

[Triceron]

Source on that claim? Because nothing in the game even remotely suggests that, and real life definitions put 'tinker' way below 'engineer' in the 'specialist' scale.

You need to stop that argument. It makes no sense.

Even if you think Tinker is an Engineer, you can have a Tinker Class without complicating anything. This is as irrelevant as saying Demon Hunters are Hunters because of the name.

The name of a Class is given to them to define the Class. So no matter what you think of NPC Tinkers or NPC/Player Engineers, this has nothing to do with the Tech-based Class we are collectively calling a Tinker. Arguing about the name is not getting you anywhere when a Class is obviously different from a Profession. There's never been any mutual exclusivity between themes.

[Fetus Rex]

Source on that claim? Because nothing in the game even remotely suggests that, and real life definitions put 'tinker' way below 'engineer' in the 'specialist' scale.

Source. Their visual and thematic representation suggests that they are leagues above common engineers. Mechaboys and other toys. Still, a waste of slot for a class that will be played by a few. Dragonsworn is the way to go.

[Ielenia]

You need to stop that argument. It makes no sense.

Even if you think Tinker is an Engineer, you can have a Tinker Class without complicating anything. This is as irrelevant as saying Demon Hunters are Hunters because of the name.

The name of a Class is given to them to define the Class. So no matter what you think of NPC Tinkers or NPC/Player Engineers, this has nothing to do with the Tech-based Class we are collectively calling a Tinker. Arguing about the name is not getting you anywhere when a Class is obviously different from a Profession. There's never been any mutual exclusivity between themes.

I wasn't the one who brought that up. We simply showed examples other races other races dealing and being comfortable with machinery.

- - - Updated - - -

Source. Their visual and thematic representation suggests that they are leagues above common engineers. Mechaboys and other toys.

Suggests nothing of the sort. It just suggests that the race itself as a whole tends to dedicate themselves to technology. It doesn't suggest at all that individual humans, blood elves, orcs, draenei, etc, lack the ability to match the skill of gnomes and goblins, or maybe even surpass them.

[Fetus Rex]

I wasn't the one who brought that up. We simply showed examples other races other races dealing and being comfortable with machinery.

- - - Updated - - -


Suggests nothing of the sort. It just suggests that the race itself as a whole tends to dedicate themselves to technology. It doesn't suggest at all that individual humans, blood elves, orcs, draenei, etc, lack the ability to match the skill of gnomes and goblins, or maybe even surpass them.

And tinker is of their origins. Nothing suggests that other races can't become DH yet here we are. Those classes will always be affiliated with midgets.

[Triceron]

And tinker is of their origins. Nothing suggests that other races can't become DH yet here we are. Those classes will always be affiliated with midgets.

Of course they will be affiliated with them, but what's your point?

Just the same, Monks and Martial Arts will forever be affiliated to the Pandaren, but are not exclusive to one race. Same with Death Knights being affiliated with Undead, but are open to other classes through unique lore and customization options too.

If a Tinker is some kind of specialist, then there's really no mutual exclusivity to midget races. This is even more the case when we have Lightforged Warframes and an entire expansion centering on Iron Horde tech showing us how Tech is used by other races. Heck, even Dark Iron Dwarves have Mole Machines as a racial!

[Ielenia]

Nothing suggests that other races can't become DH yet here we are.

Actually...

Illidan has shown to be incredibly night-elf-centered in his demon hunter recruitment, and only accepted training blood elves at Kael'Thas insistence. The training is also incredibly hard with an apparent high mortality rate (only one for every four blood elves surviving training, according to lore). The demon hunters follow the teachings of Illidan, so it stands to reason that they'd follow their leader in this regard as well.

And that's even without mentioning how their starting zone is time-locked many years ago.