[Spoilers] Safe Haven Cinematic

[Super Dickmann]

The term "honorable" has always had a flexible nature, as it essentially means any outcome or process that is in keeping with a set of moral or ethical principles. Both in WoW and in real life many people claim an action to be "honorable" when they can justify it by their moral compass, even if objectively this is a lie or a misrepresentation of the truth. That doesn't make it a "meme," it just makes it a subjective and dynamic term. The Horde respects honor in its own context, be it Orcish or Zandalari or Blood Elven. Basically the idea of living in accordance to a strict moral code is attractive to them, as it denotes a firmness of character and a sureness of purpose. The specifics of said ethos doesn't have to universally codified to retain importance. Even in WC3 the Orcs, Tauren, and Trolls didn't have a unified ethos - though they were closer to one another than the Blood Elves, Forsaken, or Goblins.

The WC3 Kalimdor races have more in common than some kind of general decision to do good or the even more nebulous notion that someone interprets their own actions to be good and the lens they place upon it. The Alliance and Horde, hell, the Alliance and things like the Iron Horde or the Defias would also be allies if that was what it took to bind a faction and claim it holds together logically speaking. The thing with the WC3 Horde is that they had cultural touching points that were very similar, and at least until WoW, were basically versions of orcs with less lore. They all fit into a single bloc because of these shared traits, traits not shared with the three subsequent races or with some of the allied races. The Zandalari are the height of this in one sense as they just aren't part of the Horde, they're only allies, which is probably the least damaging path now available. A similar dynamic was taken with the blood elves and Forsaken and should have been kept to.

The canon still does not require you completely abandon individuality - it's easy enough to fit any and all of those occurrences in line with a specific characterization beyond what you're referring to. None of the WoW races, even the Forsaken, are as much of a monolith as you imply here. I don't think that's the standard experience at all.

I'm not discussing the Forsaken as an in-story construct, but solely the audience and pitch given to the prospective Forsaken player and the questlines given to him themed after that choice to roll a Forsaken later, which paint an extremely clear and consistent picture in all its interpretations. The audience for that experience is separate from the ones that wanted to roll an orc or a human and the game understood this before whereas it doesn't now.

In BfA you're at least given something of the illusion of agency, even if it isn't implemented so well. That being said, I think the idea of the Forsaken not being lock-step with Sylvanas actually gives them much more depth and lateral freedom. I always felt the idea of the Forsaken doing a complete 180 on their previous Humanity was deeply unrealistic.

Given that the Forsaken already were fairly in-depth and what's set to replace it are a bunch of weak, contemptible sadsacks who abandon an identity of fifteen years to grovel for the approval of their erstwhile enemy up to this point as represented by a character who has experienced none of their troubles and shares no traits in common with them short of being dead, it's largely been a total failure. Better to dust the whole race than have it go on as this parody of itself, much like how the MU orcs have been a joke since Mists. Neither the Forsaken's prior humanity nor their desire to reconnect are somehow new things, only this pathetic handling of them is.

Before Cata and "Edge of Night" Sylvanas was all about revenging herself upon Arthas no matter the cost. She cultivated the Forsaken as disposable weapons, suborned a Dreadlord, enslaved people, and even blackmailed her own people (in life) into her service all for a chance at killing Arthas. She doesn't serve her people, she doesn't rule for the good for all, her view of reality presupposes a context where everything exists to serve her or further her power (or existence).

An incomplete picture of this even then, considering that before she blackmailed the blood elves into doing their duties she had saved them from extinction and lobbied for their entry into the Horde and turned the Forsaken from a confused fringe people into the preeminent power in Lordaeron. But in any case, even if you disregard her change in Edge of Night, even the newest material that exists solely to assassinate her character to promote Anduin says outright in her internal monologue that she took the action she did in Stormheim in order to secure immortality for the Forsaken, wants to return to be with her people where she thinks her place is and where she takes issue is where she thinks they're making decisions they don't understand the consequences of such as choosing to die.

Sylvanas as a cult figure to the Forsaken has always been a give and take thing - whatever her opinion of them at any one point, she plays the messianic role and through her leadership, expands their power and influence and panders to their conception of themselves, one that turns positive in Cataclysm. In exchange, they follow her loyally, which is why she's the representation of their state. As for arguing that it makes sense for Sylvanas to send two guys to kill Thrall after Saurfang killed a battalion of guys, I don't think we're gonna get anywhere there because that position is laughable, both from a matter of motive - why disturb the guy minding his own business with no context of what's going on instead of killing Saurfang, and execution. If she can also end Saurfang's rebellion, given that Thrall was completely detached from all information, by killing him in his sleep before he ever reached Thrall.

The permanence of the invisibility is moot, what matters is that they are skilled operatives in this field and have used invisibility for protracted periods of time included for the undetermined time during and after Saurfang's arrival at Thrall's farm. All they need to do is wait for Saurfang to sleep to kill him. They don't tire or need sleep, hence the advantage.

@Powerogue

Are we really doing this shit again? Baine isn't a Forsaken and doesn't know shit about shit. Lilian likewise until her rewrite in BFA. Sylvanas raises mindless undead all the time and Derek was always meant to fulfill a purpose and die. We kill farmers and abuse their berserk state as fodder as part of the WPL questing experience and no one's whining then, nor when the whole of the Forsaken state is built upon Sylvanas brainwashing guys to die for them. The inviolability of free will applies only to those intended to join the Forsaken, hence why Forsaken raised before and after this patch, like the dark rangers and Zelling himself have free will enough to turn on Sylvanas, whereas Derek, raised to achieve a set goal and die, is instead manipulated and tortured into performing a certain task.

[sam86]

Imagine being a forsaken main for 15 years. Now try to play this expansion as a forsaken main. See how you feel about the "story".

also i never mained, my 2nd character was always a warlock undead in almost every exp (since i used to main gnome warlock in vanilla)
and yeah i feel pissed of how forsaken just became flat out evil instead of ppl who world wanted to f8ck so they are fighting back

[Techno-Druid]

There is a rule against getting help from other people though. And Shamanistic magic, as explicitly described by Blizzard on their page, is all about getting aid from the Elementals.

Semantics. We never get any indication that shamanistic spirits are considered persons in the same sense as orcs, tauren or humans. Nor was the validity of Thrall's previous battle or Shagara's usage of elemental magic ever subject to scrutiny prior by any canonical sources.

[Trassk]

I mean it looked nice, but the story is still hot garbage as always.

Like yeah, I get that Sylvanas is trying to predict Saurfang's steps and stop a rebellion she thinks will happen, but is sending assassins after Thrall really worth that? She was on good terms with Thrall and has no particular reason to believe he'd return to battle against. Christ, we see ourselves that Thrall was not interested in joining this conflict until the Forsaken attacked.

So what the hell is the point?

Let me explain this is block text in the simpliest way to understand, since people here keep repeating this same lack of awareness.

Sylvanas saw Thrall as a potential threat to her rule, because she knew a rebellion was coming due to Saurfang and Baine and player character siding with them.

She saw Thrall as a potential threat to her rule since he created the horde, and is still seen as an important figure in this horde.

So by killing him, she would get rid of that potential threat to her rule.

Do you understand?

Its amazingly stupid how people can't pull their head out of the sand because they can't get it into the heads Sylvanas is a bitch, always had been, and now she's in power is doing all she can to retain that power.

If the playerbase is this unaware of very simple to understand plot points, you have no dam business calling something shit when you can't even get the basic gist of it.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Just me or does Thrall look older than Saurfang? Isn't Thrall supposed to be in his 30s, while Saurfang is at least 60?

[Trassk]

Just me or does Thrall look older than Saurfang? Isn't Thrall supposed to be in his 30s, while Saurfang is at least 60?

thralls around 40 now, since he was probably around 20 when he became warchief. The animators gave him a couple grey hairs to show he's aged some since those days.
dunno how to think he looks older then saurfang though, watched the cinematic several times, yeah thrall looks older then in other cinematics but he's clearly still younger then varok.

[Irian]

Let me explain this is block text in the simpliest way to understand, since people here keep repeating this same lack of awareness.

Sylvanas saw Thrall as a potential threat to her rule, because she knew a rebellion was coming due to Saurfang and Baine and player character siding with them.

She saw Thrall as a potential threat to her rule since he created the horde, and is still seen as an important figure in this horde.

So by killing him, she would get rid of that potential threat to her rule.

Do you understand?

Its amazingly stupid how people can't pull their head out of the sand because they can't get it into the heads Sylvanas is a bitch, always had been, and now she's in power is doing all she can to retain that power.

If the playerbase is this unaware of very simple to understand plot points, you have no dam business calling something shit when you can't even get the basic gist of it.

Let me explain this in a way you'll understand:

I'm already aware of this.

I explained that in my post. The story is still complete shit.
You misunderstand what the complaint is. I understand that Sylvanas is acting in character. I'm fully aware that the logic behind this is that she wants to stop the rebellion privately before it can interfere with the war. I'm sure many other people are as well.

But what they clearly want us to believe is that Sylvanas is on the chopping block to be a raid boss. They've convinced us this isn't going to happen but at this point it's comical to imagine any scenario where this ends in a Sylvanas redemption arc because they're trying to hard to make us hate her. The point of that post is that no matter what happens, a massive portion of the playerbase is going to be unhappy with this story and that means it's a shit story. I don't care that Sylvanas being murder-happy and going out of her way to get rid of loose ends is in character, it's still bad fucking writing because this story has no enjoyable resolution.

Do you get it?

[RichardRoe]

Let me guess, if we asked Nathanos the failed assassination of Thrall is all "good news" and "part of the plan"...

[Trassk]

The point of that post is that no matter what happens, a massive portion of the playerbase is going to be unhappy with this story and that means it's a shit story..

or just means its a shit, entitled playerbase?

[mickybrighteyes]

or just means its a shit, entitled playerbase?

It's sort of like McDonalds going out of their way to market Salads and fruit smoothies instead of Nuggets and Fries.

And then they're ignoring most people's complaints because they're thinking their the next Gordon Ramsay in the kitchen with their salads....

[Irian]

or just means its a shit, entitled playerbase?

Or it means if the vast majority of the playerbase is unhappy with a story then the story might be poorly written?

I don't know a single person, even the most diehard RPers and lore fanatics, who are happy with BfA's story. Explain away RP guilds dying because of this story as "entitled playerbase".

[Restors]

Loved the subtle hint of Thrall wearing alliance colors. Totally not MoP BTW

yeah cause the color blue has nothing to do with frostwolf clan at all... you're right, he is alliance.. /s

[omeomorfismo]

You said "named," yes, but I said "prominent." And yes, I would call Finklestein prominent enough - he's generally a recognized name and has a pretty big role in WotLK all the way up to Icecrown itself. He was one of the first names that came to mind when I though of "good-aligned Forsaken NPC's."



If she succeeded she could've left Saurfang bereft of allies and unable to form a strong coalition, making him far easier prey.

prominent and good? he is crazy like every other apothecary, even arnat ask you to not let finklestain to use his corpse as ingredient...

[Aucald]

The WC3 Kalimdor races have more in common than some kind of general decision to do good or the even more nebulous notion that someone interprets their own actions to be good and the lens they place upon it. The Alliance and Horde, hell, the Alliance and things like the Iron Horde or the Defias would also be allies if that was what it took to bind a faction and claim it holds together logically speaking. The thing with the WC3 Horde is that they had cultural touching points that were very similar, and at least until WoW, were basically versions of orcs with less lore. They all fit into a single bloc because of these shared traits, traits not shared with the three subsequent races or with some of the allied races. The Zandalari are the height of this in one sense as they just aren't part of the Horde, they're only allies, which is probably the least damaging path now available. A similar dynamic was taken with the blood elves and Forsaken and should have been kept to.

It was exactly what the Orcs and the Tauren didn't have in common that hearkened Thrall to unify with them - Thrall tells Grom that the Tauren represent many of the things that the Orcish Horde needed to recapture, things that they didn't possess since the formation of the Horde back on Draenor. As for the Darkspear, this was more an alliance out of mutual necessity than one formed of shared principles - both sides needed one another. I think you're allowing a nostalgic view of WC3 to color your perception of the Horde's essential nature at its formation.

I'm not discussing the Forsaken as an in-story construct, but solely the audience and pitch given to the prospective Forsaken player and the questlines given to him themed after that choice to roll a Forsaken later, which paint an extremely clear and consistent picture in all its interpretations. The audience for that experience is separate from the ones that wanted to roll an orc or a human and the game understood this before whereas it doesn't now.

But the Forsaken as a people are not solely either of those things. It's a union of them of both of them, as well as the tapestry of individual Forsaken perspectives, personalities, and points of view. That's the substance of what being non-monolithic is.

Given that the Forsaken already were fairly in-depth and what's set to replace it are a bunch of weak, contemptible sadsacks who abandon an identity of fifteen years to grovel for the approval of their erstwhile enemy up to this point as represented by a character who has experienced none of their troubles and shares no traits in common with them short of being dead, it's largely been a total failure. Better to dust the whole race than have it go on as this parody of itself, much like how the MU orcs have been a joke since Mists. Neither the Forsaken's prior humanity nor their desire to reconnect are somehow new things, only this pathetic handling of them is.

We've already gone over this particular ground many times, I think. We approach this content in very different ways and are unlikely to see it eye to eye.

An incomplete picture of this even then, considering that before she blackmailed the blood elves into doing their duties she had saved them from extinction and lobbied for their entry into the Horde and turned the Forsaken from a confused fringe people into the preeminent power in Lordaeron. But in any case, even if you disregard her change in Edge of Night, even the newest material that exists solely to assassinate her character to promote Anduin says outright in her internal monologue that she took the action she did in Stormheim in order to secure immortality for the Forsaken, wants to return to be with her people where she thinks her place is and where she takes issue is where she thinks they're making decisions they don't understand the consequences of such as choosing to die.

She "saved" them so she could gain the ammunition to use them, yes; that was what gave her threat the meaningfulness it required to be a threat. As for her portrayal in "Before the Storm," I think it underscores a degree of nuance which is part and parcel of what makes me like Sylvanas as a character. Part of her, deep down, does have some regard and perhaps even love for her adopted people - it is severely warped through the lens of her own perverse desires, but it is there (not too dissimilar from her "love" for Alleria as shown in "War Crimes"). I don't know about this whole "promoting Anduin" thing, but I doubt it.

Sylvanas as a cult figure to the Forsaken has always been a give and take thing - whatever her opinion of them at any one point, she plays the messianic role and through her leadership, expands their power and influence and panders to their conception of themselves, one that turns positive in Cataclysm. In exchange, they follow her loyally, which is why she's the representation of their state. As for arguing that it makes sense for Sylvanas to send two guys to kill Thrall after Saurfang killed a battalion of guys, I don't think we're gonna get anywhere there because that position is laughable, both from a matter of motive - why disturb the guy minding his own business with no context of what's going on instead of killing Saurfang, and execution. If she can also end Saurfang's rebellion, given that Thrall was completely detached from all information, by killing him in his sleep before he ever reached Thrall.

The very fact that she thought to send *any* forces to contend with Thrall belies the notion that he was completely detached - he was opting not to get involved, but she knew that was not a detente that would likely last. As for the number that was sent there are a wide variety of logistics in play there. Who can she trust with such a mission, and who would be willing to carry it out? That narrows the field a good deal right then and there, as it would have to be a Forsaken with absolutely zero regard for Thrall or the Horde's history. Then you've got logistics of trying to track down a target in a strange world you're unfamiliar with, in who knows what kind of sociopolitical state, in a foreign country on another world altogether. You're dealing with a pretty specific set of circumstances under an extreme veil of secrecy from a limited pool of applicants, in the midst of a world war you've ignited. So yeah, you're going to have to keep that operation kind of tiny by necessity.

The permanence of the invisibility is moot, what matters is that they are skilled operatives in this field and have used invisibility for protracted periods of time included for the undetermined time during and after Saurfang's arrival at Thrall's farm. All they need to do is wait for Saurfang to sleep to kill him. They don't tire or need sleep, hence the advantage.

Somehow I doubt Saurfang is the kind of Orc who sleeps so soundly, or so openly, that he'd make himself an easy target for assassins (especially since he already has Sylvanas' ire). As I said before, they may well have been there only to spy on Thrall as well, and only attempted to kill them when Saurfang showed up, as part and parcel of Sylvanas' standing orders.

- - - Updated - - -

prominent and good? he is crazy like every other apothecary, even arnat ask you to not let finklestain to use his corpse as ingredient...

He's batty, sure, but he's also helping the Argent Crusade contend with both the Scourge in Zul'Drak and the Lich King. He's presented as one of the few examples of a positive Forsaken.

[wanax]

Saurfang no-look snaps that fucker's neck while they're invisible. Alpha move.

Also walking through the field of wheat really reminds me of Gladiator.

ME TOO!!! Like he found his honorable death.

Thrall being a farmer and being called back to lead in a time of need reminds me of Cincinnatus. So i wonder if he will come back to overthrow Sylvanas and then turn the Horde over to someone else

[Zandalariprelate]

even though it kind of comes out of nowhere

BFA in a nutshell basically. everything has to come out of nowhere because foreshadow or hints aren't allowed to say outside of interviews

[mickybrighteyes]

BFA in a nutshell basically. everything has to come out of nowhere because foreshadow or hints aren't allowed to say outside of interviews

don't forget that not even HALF the story is allowed to be seen by BOTH factions... I'm not saying you only see half the story on your respective faction... I'm saying you still don't see half the story when playing through both of the faction stories.

[Combatbutler]

Looks shiny and that's about it.

[matrix123mko]

Loved the subtle hint of Thrall wearing alliance colors. Totally not MoP BTW

Thrall likes to wear blue since Lord of Clans.

- - - Updated - - -

Sylvanas acted really stupid. Why would she try to assassinate the founding father of the Horde? If Thrall survives, he is forced to support Saurfang. If Thrall dies, he becomes a martyr for Saurfang's cause.

Unless Saurfang lied to get some ex-warchief on his side.

- - - Updated - - -

Looks shiny and that's about it.

Yes, it's just good looking justification to make Thrall support Saurfang.

[Combatbutler]

Yes, it's just good looking justification to make Thrall support Saurfang.

It was just predictable as hell and as such just falls flat because of it, like almost all blizz cinematics, looks neat though.